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Jewish Gehenna or Catholic Purgatory. What are your views
Most Christians dont believe in Purgatory. I know, but when I debate with those who reject the Catholic Canon of the OT but actually respect the Jewish religion, I generally get confused as to why they reject one and accept the other, since the Catholic purgatory comes from the Jewish belief in Gehenna - the jewish purgatory.
Please let me have your views and help me out with a little essay I am going to write on this subject.
Please note I am NOT trying to debate if Purgatory is a valid doctrine, but if those who reject it are aware that it comes from Judaism and what are their stand on this point.
Thanks!
PURGATORY:
An intermediate state through which souls are to pass in order to be purified from sin before they are admitted into the heavenly paradise. The belief in purgatory, fundamental with the Roman Catholic Church, is based by the Church authorities chiefly upon II Macc. xii. 44-45: "If he [Judas] had not hoped that they that were slain should have risen again it had been superfluous and vain to pray for the (dead. . . . Whereupon he made an atonement that they might be delivered from sin"; for this indicates that souls after death pass through an intermediate state in which they may by some intercession be saved from doom. The same view, that an atonement should be made for the dead, is expressed in Sifre, Deut. 210. The idea of an intermediate state of the soul, release from which may be obtained by intercession of the saints, is clearly dwelt upon in the Testament of Abraham, Recension A, xiv., where the description is given of a soul which, because its good and its evil deeds are equal, has to undergo the process of purification while remaining in a middle state, and on whose behalf Abraham intercedes, the angels joining him in his prayer, whereupon the soul is admitted into paradise.
Rabbinic Views.The view of purgatory is still more clearly expressed in rabbinical passages, as in the teaching of the Shammaites: "In the last judgment day there shall be three classes of souls: the righteous shall at once be written down for the life everlasting; the wicked, for Gehenna; but those whose virtues and sins counterbalance one another shall go down to Gehenna and float up and down until they rise purified; for of them it is said: 'I will bring the third part into the fire and refine them as silver is refined, and try them as gold is tried' [Zech. xiii. 9.]; also, 'He [the Lord] bringeth down to Sheol and bringeth up again'" (I Sam. ii. 6). The Hillelites seem to have had no purgatory; for they said: "He who is 'plenteous in mercy' [Ex. xxxiv. 6.] inclines the balance toward mercy, and consequently the intermediates do not descend into Gehenna" (Tosef., Sanh. xiii. 3; R. H. 16b; Bacher, "Ag. Tan." i. 18). Still they also speak of an intermediate state.
Regarding the time which purgatory lasts, the accepted opinion of R. Akiba is twelve months; according to R. Johanan b. Nuri, it is only forty-nine days. Both opinions are based upon Isa. lxvi. 23-24: "From one new moon to another and from one Sabbath to another shall all flesh come to worship before Me, and they shall go forth and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched"; the former interpreting the words "from one new moon to another" to signify all the months of a year; the latter interpreting the words "from one Sabbath to another," in accordance with Lev. xxiii. 15-16, to signify seven weeks. During the twelve months, declares the baraita (Tosef., Sanh. xiii. 4-5; R. H. 16b), the souls of the wicked are judged, and after these twelve months are over they are consumed and transformed into ashes under the feet of the righteous (according to Mal. iii. 21 [A. V. iv. 3]), whereas the great seducers and blasphemers are to undergo eternal tortures in Gehenna without cessation (according to Isa. lxvi. 24).
The righteous, however, and, according to some, also the sinners among the people of Israel for whom Abraham intercedes because they bear the Abrahamic sign of the covenant are not harmed by the fire of Gehenna even when they are required to pass through the intermediate state of purgatory ('Er. 19b; Ḥag. 27a).
History of Purgatory.The idea of the purging fire through which the soul has to pass is found in the Zend-Avesta ("Bundahis," xxx. 20): "All men will pass into the melted metal and become pure; to the righteous it will seem as though he walks through warm milk" (comp. Enoch, lii. 6-7, lxvii. 6-7). The Church Fathers developed the idea of the "ignis purgatorius" into a dogma according to which all souls, including those of the righteous who remain unscathed, have to pass the purgatory (Origen on Ps. xxxvii., Homily 3; Lactantius, "Divinæ Institutiones," vii. 21, 4-7; Jerome on Ps. cxviii., Sermon 20; Commodianus, "Instructiones," ii. 2, 9); hence prayers and offerings for the souls in purgatory were instituted (Tertullian, "De Corona Militis," 3-4; "De Monogamia," 10; "Exhortatio Castitatis," 11; Augustine, "Enchiridion ad Lauram," 67-69, 109; Gregory I., "Dialogi," iv. 57). Hence also arose in the Church the mass for the dead corresponding in the Synagogue to the Ḳaddish (see Ḳaddish).
- Boeklen, Die Verwandtschaft der Jüdisch-Christlichen mit der Persischen Eschatologie, 1902, pp. 118-125;
- Atzberger, Die Christliche Eschatologie, 1890, pp. 99 et seq., 162, 275;
- Herzog-Hauck, Real-Encyc, s.v. Fegefeuer;
- McClintock and Strong, Cyc. s.v.
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Tammy on
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Here is my belief. As a Christian, I follow the Scriptures from Genesis to Revelation. I believe every word is complete & accurate & without error. The word tells me that Abraham was chosen by the Lord to be His own & his descendants would also be given the same benefits as Abraham. Those are the Israelites or Jews. The Jews are not a religion but is a birth rite just like being Greek, American, Latin, etc. Being a Jew is not a choice although one can go through a process to join the Judaism faith or so it was in the Old Testament. However, the Catholic religion is a choice. My view on the Catholic religion could fill a book but at the moment, I'll just put my beliefs on purgatory. Let me first say that nothing posted here comes from the Scriptures. If it is not Scripture, it must align with the Scripture to be true to me as a Christian.
Purgatory is an attempt at atonement from sins apart from the blood of Christ. Here are several Scriptures that says that Christ's blood is the only way for salvation. It's also a 2nd chance so if you don't want to live for Christ in this world, you still have another opportunity in the next life. You remain in purgatory until the Lord feels you're cleansed enough to enter eternity with Him. If this is the truth, then Jesus' blood wasn't good enough to forgive in the first place. Below are a few Scriptures which express His blood is enough.
1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit.
John 14:6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.
John 5:24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.
In the word we do find a chasm between heaven & Hades which cannot be crossed over but purgatory is never found in the Bible. Seeing as I can't find anything backing the views of purgatory, I find it as being a false doctrine but I will continue searching the Scriptures.
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Permalink Reply by Yael Levi-Bénédict on
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Dear Taminator,
Thanks for your reply.
I am sure you mean very well, but you seem to have misunderstood my question - this might be my fault because perhaps I didnt explain it properly -I know non-catholics dont believe in purgatory.
I also know that many of them have a very incorrect view on what purgatory actually is. For instance, you say purgatory is a Second Chance at Salvation - which is wrong, because all soul in purgatory ARE already SAVED but need to be purified. Or that Purgatory is a negation of Christ sacrifice, which could not be further from the truth, since it is because of Him that those in purgatory can finally enter heaven. ( Didnt the Lord even go down to preach to those in prison so that they could be raised?)
Anyway, my point here is NOT to debate your or anyone beliefs in Purgatory - I admit the title of the discussion is a bit misleading- but to find out how many of you who reject purgatory KNOW that it not a Catholic invention but a Jewish believe!
Now, before I finish let me ask you two straight forward questions:
1 - What do you make of the quote I posted from the Jewish Encyclopedia?
2- Do you think you are a holy person? (No offense, just a little investigation in order to formulate my argument in case you want to debate some more)
Thanks
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What would u like me to say about the quote? I believe purgatory to be false so I really don't know exactly what you want me to say. No offense about my holiness either. The Lord tells us to be holy as He is holy. I hope I answered your questions as u desire. I'm a female by the way
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Sir
I first would identify myself as one who rejects the doctrine of purgatory. I know that you say that you are not wanting to debate the merits of this ' doctrine' so I will say only this: The apostle Paul ( a person whom I believe you will acknowlegde as an'expert' in Jewish tradition and law) tell us "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord."
He does not speak of a 'purifying period' that completes(perhaps not the best word) the salvation of the dead. It also says that when He descended He lead captivity captive and gave gifts to men" . This place that Jesus refered to as paradise or ' abrahams busom' or whatever other names it's called were in existance prior to the resurrection of Jesus. After Jesus made the sacrifice that redeemed all who died under the law they ascended with Him from whatever the place you want to call it.
I hadn't meant to 'debate ' as you have said and I do apologize for that but I could not address your question without clarification. Now as to whether or not the doctrine is of 'catholic' or 'Jewish ' in origin is ( in my opinion only ) irrelevant. If it is not valid it does not matter where it comes from. I believe that the article you have posted takes too much liberty with the scriptures that it quotes. Any person with a fundamental knowledge of the scriptures can make them 'say' whatever they want.
And ,as stated before, the Apostle Paul was also a great student of the Law and rabbinical tradition as well as a student of one of the most dedicated and honored rabbis (Gamaliel ). And as many of us Christians believe, he was mightily used of God with God Himself confirming Paul's aposleship and ministry.
I will close for now and apologize if I have come on harshly as that was not my intention.
God bless
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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on
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Yael,
Regarding your post.
1) You cannot expect to discuss purgatory with non-Catholic Christians and expect that we will not address the belief in purgatory.
2) You stated the following:
Yael: “I also know that many of them have a very incorrect view on what purgatory actually is. For instance, you say purgatory is a Second Chance at Salvation - which is wrong, because all soul in purgatory ARE already SAVED but need to be purified.”
Your own article appears to contradict your position by stating the following:
"If he [Judas] had not hoped that they that were slain should have risen again it had been superfluous and vain to pray for the (dead. . . . Whereupon he made an atonement that they might be delivered from sin"; for this indicates that souls after death pass through an intermediate state in which they may by some intercession be saved from doom.”
Please explain what the “doom” is that they refer if it is not pending doom and why be concerned about pending doom if they are already saved and just needing a little purging.
3) Your argument is built on non-Biblical books (for the most part) and uses people who reject Jesus as proof regarding a belief in a intermediate place. Paul tells us that the coming of Jesus has revealed a great mystery, this means that there were things hidden prior that have now been revealed in and through Jesus as well as through the human authors of the NT that were guided by the Holy Spirit. Thus, it really does not matter if some Jews believed in a purgatory type place or not if it is not given to us by God through His Word. Remember that we do not hold the same view regarding church fathers and other sources outside of the Bible that the Catholic Church holds.
4) I will respond to the second question you asked Tammy. The answer is that all born again children of God are “positionally” holy, because our holiness is from Him and not of ourselves.
Lord Bless,
LT
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LT,
There is NO contradiction. I was correcting Taminator on his understanding of the Catholic doctrine, not on what the JEWISH Encyclopedia states regarding the Jewish stand on Purgatory.
Indeed Catholics do not learn anywhere, because NOWHERE the Church teaches that we have a second change at salvation.
Purgatory is for the purification of Souls. Whoever gets there is already SAVED. This is the Catholic Teaching. Anything contrary to this is NOT Catholic.
I repeat I am not debating if anyone believe or does not believe this Doctrine of the Holy Church. That is irrelevant to me.
I was trying to check how many of you realize that this Doctrine comes from Judaism - As shown in the Jewish in text of the Jewish above.
For Clarification Purposes ONLY. To both you and the gentleman who said Purgatory is second chance on salvation:
Here is what the Church teaches:
III. THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY
1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607
- As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608
1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:
- Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.611
- As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608
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Yael,
Ok, now you have me confused as to what you are even trying to say. You give as a proof text that the belief in a purgatory or a type of purgatory was a Judaism concept, but that it was a wrong concept because they believed that there one would need to be pruified or be doomed. The Catholic Church comes along and believes in a purgatory like the Jews, but not like the Jews and this belief in its existence and the belief in its function are not found in Scripture. If the Jews were wrong and used external writtings in order to develop their doctrine what makes the Catholic attempt to build a doctrine using non-Biblical writtings any better?
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LT
You say “positionally” holy?
Does it mean that a believer who also happens to be uncharitable, selfish, unforgiving, does not need to make an effort to imitate Christ's holiness? Does it also mean that if that same believer (say someone like ourselves: who reads scriptures, prays daily and tries to lead a good life, etc ) but goes through life as a believer who never quite manage to overcome his-hers faults such as described in brackets, will die and go to heaven regardless of their lack of holiness, because they are already “positionally” holy??
If yes. Is this why St Paul exorts all of us to be Holy? And furthermore states that without holiness NO ONE - that includes believers, correct? - will see the LORD... ( Cf Heb. 12, 14)
Please clarify.
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Permalink Reply by Amanda on
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Yael,
These are good questions. My understanding of the Catholic belief in purgatory is that it's the final stages of the sanctification process. The difference in belief regarding sanctification is that most non- Catholic Christians believe we are being experientially sanctified in this life after being positionally sanctified upon receiving Christ and being born again. The new birth guarantees us heaven because the Holy Spirit is our deposit of this salvation and the deal is sealed so to speak by Him in-dwelling us.
At death, we believe we go to be with The Lord and our sanctification will be complete in that moment when we see Jesus face to face. So, no purgatory but complete holiness in us which is a work of God alone and allows us to see Him face to face. We don't have to work out that part of our sanctification the way Catholics believe happens in purgatory.
That's my understanding anyway. I look forward to reading LT's reply and acknowledge I may be in error or have a wrong understanding. However, I have heard the teaching that purgatory can be a second chance and some said to be there are not ever allowed to enter heaven but my own view is that sanctification after death is completed in us by God and not through this Catholic purgatory teaching. In the mean time we are to grow spiritually in Christ and seek to do God's will and live holy lives.
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Hi Amanda,
Many thanks for your kind reply.
I am thinking; "Hmmm this was not supposed to be about Catholicism, but a debate about the origins of the Purification place in the Jewish faith..." But not to worry, we can always start a new discussion at anytime.
See, I do apreciate your understanding and I -even as a Catholic - wish it was correct, because it would make things so much easier for us believers.... But the "positional holiness" concept clashes with so many scriptural teachings that I just cant bring myself about to submitting to it.
For example, you say "At death, we believe we go to be with The Lord and our sanctification will be complete in that moment when we see Jesus face to face.".I don't find that in Scriptures or in the Teaching of the Church Fathers. Can you support that, please?
My understanding is that the Scripture tells us that we have to Do the Will of God, Abide in His Word, which is Jesus ( the Word incarnate, not the Bible, with all due respect), Keep his commandments, Walk the narrow road of Salvation,etc...
I also understand that it's no good only saying Lord, Lordand NOT do what He says. And this is what He says:
Be HOLY because I am holy or Be Holy like my Father in Heaven is Holy ( cf Mat. 5,48 or 1 Peter 1, 16 or Lev 20,26)Then, as I mentioned before, S Paul says "strive for holiness, without which no one will see the Lord" Heb12, 14.
What's happened to these scriptures in the "positional holiness" view?
Why are Peter and Paul almost imploring people to be holy and not just claim to believe and you will be holy, sort of thing?
What happened to Paul's teachings in Romans 12, 9-21, which, to me, is an explicit appeal for holiness?
In my opinion, this is what is utterly wrong with this view. If one cannot accept the Jewish and Catholic belief in purification of the soul inspite of the passages given in the OT ( and yet deny the clear explicit exortation of the Bible for holines, then there is something seriously wrong with your interpretation...
Now, please, let me correct you in love and charity: What you have heard about purgatory does not mean is what the Church teaches. If you heard that it is a second chance at salvation, then it is NOT the Catholic teaching.
I have posted the Catechism in my reply. Please refer to it and kindly, accept that what you had heard is NOT true.
Pax Domini
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I did read what you posted and just threw in as an afterthought at the end of my comment that the second chance purgatory teaching is out there and causing even more confusion.
I believe we are saved by grace through faith based on Ephesians 2:8-10 and we do works because we are saved but not to become saved or to stay saved.
From what I gather regarding Catholicism most of their teachings center around salvation being faith plus works.
Here is a great article that explains why many people hold the view that our salvation in Christ isn't positional and why they are in error. Let me know what you think after reading it.
Pax Domini Sit Semper Vobiscum "May the peace of the Lord be with you always"
http://www.gotquestions.org/salvation-by-works.html
PS If any of my salvation depends on me then I'm hell bound for sure.
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I want to add that I believe many Catholics are truly saved and not understanding the new birth or eternal security either one doesn't make people exempt from having really experienced or received them. Being assured of salvation is a great relief though once the Holy Spirit teaches you about it and bears witness within you that you are His and He is yours! For eternity! And it happens in one moment when one is born again and translated from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of His dear Son!
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