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Should women represent top-rank positions in churches?
Please respond to this in kindness. I'm obviously a woman and do not subscribe to chauvinistic ideology. However, I DO believe the Bible reveals a natural order that signifies God's original intention and purpose for His created.
Happy discussing! ;)
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Ginnybee on
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I realize now how the statement, "however, to become more spiritual (closer to God, so to speak) it is good to seek counsel of a Godly man," can be misconstrued from they way I meant it. What I meant by this is that in the natural, man more closely resembles the likeness of God in both physical and cogent character. Therefore, in order for women to better comprehend God's formality naturally, the presence of a Godly man in our lives certainly helps. Hope that makes better sense.
Also, if I haven't made it clear in the beginning of my philosophical posts, these are a reflection of my own thoughts regarding some aspects of the Holy Bible. I'm not claiming these ideas are clearly defined in the Bible, nor do I claim to be a prophet. Then, who knows, maybe one day..?? ;-)
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Permalink Reply by Sharon Theresa Theil on
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The Apostle Paul’s teachings about the woman’s place in the church are not based upon cultural considerations, but upon man’s priority in Creation and woman’s priority in the Fall.
Is he blaming the fall on women?
Eve is much less culpable than Adam in the story of the fall!
God spoke His command about not eating the forbidden fruit to Adam not to Eve.
And yet he ate and then blamed the woman and God! "it was the woman you gave me'! I'm surprised the LORD didn't smack Adam's block off right then and there.
And if you notice, the woman is not singled out alone for punishment nor is she given a worse (priority) punishment than is given to Adam and the Snake. If the woman had a 'priority' role in the fall then why didn't she receive a priority or harder punishment?
Also, it is within this same narrative that the LORD makes the first prophecy about the coming of and full victory of Christ "And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel." (Gen. 3:15).
So, it doesn't seem that women in general are singled out for special condemnation, quite the opposite in fact, it is through a woman that the Savior will come!
The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you. (Rom. 16:20).
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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on
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>>Is he blaming the fall on women?
What do you think? Is He? How familiar are you with his writings which are God breath?
>>>>Eve is much less culpable than Adam in the story of the fall!
God spoke His command about not eating the forbidden fruit to Adam not to Eve.
Sister, sister, sister. My Lord bless you. They both sinned and they both paid for it. You think Adam or God did not informed Eve of the command. She seemed to be well informed according to the word:
Genesis 3
2 The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' "
>>And yet he ate and then blamed the woman and God! "it was the woman you gave me'! I'm surprised the LORD didn't smack Adam's block off right then and there.
Wow! Slow down sis. Imagine God was to do that to you every time you sin horribly or to me. Wow, thank God He is not like us. The woman did the same thing she blamed the serpent: The woman said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate
>>And if you notice, the woman is not singled out alone for punishment nor is she given a worse (priority) punishment than is given to Adam and the Snake. If the woman had a 'priority' role in the fall then why didn't she receive a priority or harder punishment?
What bible are you reading Sharon?
Genesis 3
15 And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your offspring [a] and hers;
he will crush [b] your head,
and you will strike his heel."
16 To the woman he said,
"I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing;
with pain you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you."
17 To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it,'
"Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat of it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return."
Ok so we guys get to work hard and the woman, wow?
>>So, it doesn't seem that women in general are singled out for special condemnation, quite the opposite in fact, it is through a woman that the Savior will come!
No one has said that. You again are the first one to see a nonexistent problem.
I agree sis. Let's read our bibles a lot more. Blessings to you.
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I agree sis. Let's read our bibles a lot more. Blessings to you.
David,
Simply because I disagree with you over the interpretation of a particular Scripture does not mean that I don't know my Bible.
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Permalink Reply by JB on
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When we look at the word “Prophesy” in Joel 2:28 to prophesy, i.e. speak (or sing) by inspiration (in prediction or simple discourse)In Acts.2:17 “Prophesy” to foretell events, divine, speak under inspiration, I think we have today too many “preachers” that are not “speaking under the inspiration” of God; but out of their own intellect. Using words and sentence structures that the average person can’t understand. And thereby getting a distorted view of the Word.
When we look at Galatians 3:28-29 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
So maybe this is where someone is thinking that it (The Word) is negotiable. I have no problem with it myself, as long as they are preaching and or teaching the Word, under the inspiration of God. The Word is the Word, regardless of who is speaking, and it carries the same power. Isa.55:11, So shall my Word be that goeth forth out of my mouth, it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which please and prosper in the thing where to I sent it.
So if the Word is sent by God, byway of a donkey or man, it will still be prosperous. Maybe I should modify that a little, “Woman or man” LOL
Joe
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My personal conviction about the topic is the following:
I think the bible is clear that men are to be leaders. Does that mean I don’t believe it is right that sometimes women are in leadership? No.
Let me give you this example. All over the world sometimes villages get saved. And there are men among those that are saved. But no men that are trained and willing to lead. If we put the new converts (the men) in charge of the groups then we would be disobeying another passage of scripture (i.e. don’t let new converts lead). So we should let the trained and willing women lead. It is not ideal, but the world rarely is.
An example closer to home is my own fellowship. It is not the common practice for Praise Chapel to choose women to be the pastors. So we could say that we generally agree with the fact that men should lead, no matter what we might say. But when Senior Pastor Mike Neville went to be with the lord, God raised up his widow. Pastor Donna. We could say that is not scriptural all we want, but no one else could have held things together? . Only she had the trust of everyone and could hold things together. Pastor Larry came in as the president, but without Pastor Donna there supporting his role, things would have been even tougher than they were.
Now maybe I show my ignorance with my example. My point is that we don’t always have to do everything according to the perfect ideal standard, because sometimes the situation throws us a curve ball! So to sum it up, I think that it is unscriptural to have women as leaders in the church, and at the same time I believe sometimes and in some situations it is the right thing to do, though it is unscriptural.
That might sound contradictory, but I live in a confused world where a lot of things can happen. I know, I know Linda that I just told you somewhere that I never contradict myself, but this is about the closes to it I come.
I think if we try to make the scripture say differently we will have a hard time doing it. If we try to say it was only the culture of the time, that will lead us to some verses that are clearly not based on culture and it will lead us to conclude that we can disregard many other passages because we can argue they are "just cultural" as well. That is not to say there are not some verses that are set in culture. But I think the safest course is to take the plain meaning (plain in my opinion anyway, I know others disagree) of scripture, but then realize that sometimes God does things outside of the general principles.
Just how I reconcile these issues!!!
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I think the bible is clear that men are to be leaders.
David,
You state that men are to be leaders but you don't state what a leader is. From a Christian perspective what is a leader?
Sharon.
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A leader, Sharon, would mean taking formal office. Having the Gospel preached under the name of a woman who heads a church group is generally wrong in my opinion. That's my meaning, anyway. Men's names should be cited commonly as chief representatives of church bodies, not women's. That doesn't mean to say women are incapable doing the job, however. I think women do the church great service, as we certainly should do. But, taking formal office is instructed against in the Holy Bible.
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Permalink Reply by RoyW on
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Ginnybee,
It does seem very important to some on this site to put every woman in her place making sure that she does not have a position of authority in the church. I personally think that if that is your preference that is fine. However, I wonder about you placing yourself in a position of authority criticizing those women that feel Christ is calling them to service in a certain area. I have noticed that you have been doing a lot of teaching on this question. I am not criticizing you for that. I think you have a lot of great things to say. You have taught me some good things. I am grateful for that. I have said on this forum that if Christ has something to teach me and that if it comes through a woman I am not going to argue with God. However, I do know that Paul told the women of his day that they were to remain silent, that they were not to teach a man. Why are you teaching me? Why are you not remaining silent and allowing David, LT or some other great man teacher correct me in my thinking that a man could actually learn something from a woman.
By the way, I think you are doing a great job teaching and correcting on this forum. I do think you took it too far when you seemingly criticized the lady pastor Carla spoke of. Ginnybee, if we are to take the Scripture you are speaking of to its real meaning, you should only speak to the women and not to men when it comes to the explanation or teaching of Scripture. There needs to be a forum for women only and they should not be allowed to come onto a forum designed for the deeper truths of God where only men are qualified to tread. If you desire to have an answer about these deep truths, you should wait until you are with your husband and ask him to explain those deep truths of God's Word to you.
Ginnybee, times change. How should I feel when a man with long hair prays in public? Notice:
1 Co 11:2-16
2 I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the teachings, just as I passed them on to you.
3 Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. 4 Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. 5 And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head — it is just as though her head were shaved. 6 If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head. 7 A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. 8 For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; 9 neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. 10 For this reason, and because of the angels, the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head.
11 In the Lord, however, woman is not independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. 12 For as woman came from man, so also man is born of woman. But everything comes from God. 13 Judge for yourselves: Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? 14 Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him, 15 but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For long hair is given to her as a covering. 16 If anyone wants to be contentious about this, we have no other practice — nor do the churches of God. NIV
A man with long hair is not allowed to pray or prophecy since long hair is given as a covering. And, why do women of our day have short or shorter hair than the long hair of the church age? It says it is a disgrace for a women to have her hair cut. Short hair for man and long hair for women - that is the directive. What do you think?
I have mentioned that I really do believe that God has placed a call on some women to teach the Gospel. I have to admit that I do not have this all figured out. I am hearing guys saying, women should remain silent and the man should teach. I completely understand where you are coming from. However, I see all these girls going into these uncivilized places preaching the Gospel and wonder how they could do such a thing. What would drive them to do this? I have come to the conclusion that only God's calling could make them do this. Even their lives are not important to them. The only thing that matters to them is the call if it truly is a call. I just can't imagine it being anything else.
If God gives you something to correct me in this, teach away. You have an authoritative ability. I have noticed you have brought some guys to their knees.
I am saying all this in a jokingly matter. I hope you understand this and not offended by my words. This response is so long most won't read it anyway. It probably is full of mistakes. I don't have time to correct it.
God Bless you,
Roy
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Roy, my friend :D
I'm happy to have your thoughts. Let me see... where shall I begin, haha.
Here we are..
However, I wonder about you placing yourself in a position of authority criticizing those women that feel Christ is calling them to service in a certain area.
I don't see where I meant to criticize any individual. When I replied to Carla earlier, I explained that I was thinking in terms of principalities and speaking theoretically about an unparticular circumstance--even though I based those thoughts on a distinct person of whom Carla spoke of, but whom I do not know personally (I see how I should have not used that particular story to base the ideas it initiated). I said in one of my posts that I believe in the possibility of "shifts" from the original order, instituted by God as He sees fit. So, I'm not totally against the occasional woman leading a congregation. Although, the occasional shift still doesn't change what the Bible says regarding the fundamental principle of order. The directive remains... and I want to emphasize I am certainly of no authority here or anywhere. I do have thoughts and ideas that I enjoy sharing wherever I can expect collaborative feedback. I don't expect everyone to agree with me. I'm a student here who desires feedback very much. If I am confronted with the realization that an idea of mine is wrong, I WANT someone to help set me straight. Believe me, Roy, I'm not a hostile person.
Why are you teaching me? Why are you not remaining silent and allowing David, LT or some other great man teacher correct me in my thinking that a man could actually learn something from a woman.
This is a public forum, not a church ;-) You don't have to receive anything I write, but I'm honored that you do. Moreover, I'm a far cry from being able to formally teaching scriptures, so be careful not to take anything I say too strictly. Most of what I write is just me thinking out loud, trying to better understand, and if I'm lucky, others will acknowledge the point I'm at in that understanding so they can help me get from where I'm at to where I should go. Hope that made sense, lol.
By the way, I think you are doing a great job teaching and correcting on this forum. I do think you took it too far when you seemingly criticized the lady pastor Carla spoke of. Ginnybee, if we are to take the Scripture you are speaking of to its real meaning, you should only speak to the women and not to men when it comes to the explanation or teaching of Scripture. There needs to be a forum for women only and they should not be allowed to come onto a forum designed for the deeper truths of God where only men are qualified to tread. If you desire to have an answer about these deep truths, you should wait until you are with your husband and ask him to explain those deep truths of God's Word to you.
I hope I already explained my position with Carla better.
I do mostly reading and learning here. Sometimes I speak, maybe I shouldn't. I may be completely out of line by participating, I'm not sure. I do feel like I can learn more through participation. Either way, I thank you for pointing this out. It's received with appreciation, not anger. Oh, and I don't have a husband, so I suppose Jesus occupies that spot in my life right now.
I don't wish to go in to the long hair/short hair topic again at this time. I already discussed it in a separate thread :D Basically, I do not think hair length determines our salvation, but I do think there is a right and not-so-right way to pray, because the Bible says so. I think we should aspire to do what the Bible teaches, but failing to totally conform isn't a sure sign of damnation, certainly not. We should desire what is right because we love God, not particularly because it's the law.
However, I see all these girls going into these uncivilized places preaching the Gospel and wonder how they could do such a thing. What would drive them to do this? I have come to the conclusion that only God's calling could make them do this. Even their lives are not important to them. The only thing that matters to them is the call if it truly is a call. I just can't imagine it being anything else.
Maybe they are called. I don't know, and I don't deny that it can happen. I do, however, see the situation as existing outside the biblically ordained order. I also think that when a woman is called to take such a task, because it is out of original order, we should carefully examine every angle of the situation and pray for correct discernment regarding her ministering role. If the woman was not truly called, individuals face a risk of becoming deceived and mislead. We should be careful who we open our selves up to on a regular basis, is all I'm saying, whether the one in question is male or female. We should be weighing everything we read and listen to, anyway. It's a critical part of the journey.
Blessings to you, my friend
Glenda
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Glenda -
You are a blessing, but quit lying girl you can't be quite hahaha hahaha you are after all a woman hahaha ok ok before I get a thousand hate emails, I am only kidding ladies, my beautiful sisters hahaha don't stone me. :)
You said: Sometimes I speak, maybe I shouldn't.
Don't you dare stop talking (not that you can hahaha) you are a valuable contributor here.
We love you and appreciate you.
Blessings
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