All About GOD - Growing Relationships with Jesus and Others
Losing Salvation?
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If you could not give up your salvation voluntarily, then once you become saved you could then go ahead and do whatever you wish. You could steal, murder, cheat, lie, never pray, reject the scriptures, lead others astray, blaspheme God from morning to night - do anything that is sinful, rebellious, and against the laws of God. And you could do all this never confessing and never repenting. To believe that "once saved, always saved" is believing that one has a "license to sin" after the person is born again."
LOSING YOUR SALVATION -http://robertwells.tripod.com/losingsalvation.html
YOU CAN'T LOSE YOUR SALVATION OR HAVE IT TAKEN AWAY BUT.......
When you were saved you turned to God. Turning to God means the you have committed your life to trusting and obeying God. In John 1:6-7 it says, "If we claim to have fellowship with Him, yet we walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, then we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son, purifies us from all sin."
According to this text, "If we walk in the darkness, then we do not live by the truth." If our heart is not repentant when we sin, if our attitude is one of disobedience to the Laws and Commandments of God, if we turn away from God, if we live a life of sin, if we decide the effort to lead a Godly life is not worth it, if the actions of our lives indicate that we no longer desire to be one of God's children, then we don't lose our salvation, and salvation isn't taken from us, but we through our own free will, take our salvation and give it back to God. We tell God we don't want it. We give it up!!!
Ezekiel 3:20 "If the righteous turn from their righteousness and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling block before them, they shall die".
If you could not give up your salvation voluntarily, then once you become saved you could then go ahead and do whatever you wish. You could steal, murder, cheat, lie, never pray, reject the scriptures, lead others astray, blaspheme God from morning to night - do anything that is sinful, rebellious, and against the laws of God. To believe that "once saved, always saved" is believing that one has a "license to sin" after the person is born again."
So ask yourself this question. What is the only way to gain eternal salvation? There are a great many verses that tell us the answer. Below are just two of them:
Ephesians 2:8-9 "By this undeserved kindness, indeed, you have been saved through faith, and this not owing to you, it is God's gift."
1Peter 1:5 "Those who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed on the last day.
God makes salvation completely available through Jesus Christ - and not only to specific individuals, but to all who will receive and believe in Jesus Christ as savior. Jesus made this very clear when he said, "Whoever believes in me would not perish but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) The word "whoever" includes everybody. No person is excluded from the opportunity to believe and receive everlasting life.
Your relationship with God, as well as your eternal salvation are based upon faith. Faith that Jesus Christ is who, and what He says he is. And thus if you are committing those sins mentioned in the above paragraph, then you simply don't believe who Jesus is. A person practicing the above sinful actions, certainly indicates that the person no longer has any faith or belief in Jesus Christ.
In other words you can not walk in the darkness unrepentant and still hold onto your salvation. Keep in mind that repentance is much more than stopping the very act of committing those sins that you are asking forgiveness for. Repentance is actually the act of turning away from doing those sins, of not committing them anymore, of changing your life in such a way as you no longer want or desire to commit those sins. You are the one who decides whether to walk in the light or the darkness. God gave you the free will to make your own choices. If you decide to walk in the darkness then your salvation will not be taken away from you, nor will you lose your salvation. No, what you will do is give up your salvation. You will be telling God that your salvation "is not worth the effort it takes to walk in the light". That you do not wish to have his gift of eternal salvation. That you want to make it through this life on your own without any help from God. That you will follow the ways of the world rather than the ways of our Lord. So your own free will determines whether you are going to keep your salvation or give it up. God allows your eternal future to be in your own hands.
Since your own free will is what determines your eternal destiny, then it is very important to note that God will not force anyone to come to him. He is not going to get down on his knees and beg you to believe him, trust him, or accept him. Nor will he force you to love him or demand your obedience. The choice is up to each one of us whether to surrender our lives and our hearts to God or to refuse his love and his blessings. If you don't want any part of Jesus Christ then he is willing to accept that decision since it was made by you through your own free will.
Our Lord did tell us that once we are saved, once we are looking to him for everything, once we have surrendered completely to him, then no one could snatch us away from him.
John 10:28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand."
So you can't be snatched way, but you sure can walk away.
There are a great many examples of this in the Bible but my favorite is in the book of Mark. It has to do with the story about the time Jesus arrived by boat to a town where he met a demon possessed man who was living in a graveyard. (You can read the entire story in Mark 5:1-21, and it is a great example of people exercising their free will and possibly putting their eternal salvation in jeopardy).
The Bible mentions that this demon possessed man was unusually fierce and dangerous, so much so that the townspeople could not even use the roads in fear that they would be harmed or even killed by this demon possessed man. The demons who resided in this man recognized Jesus and even talked with Jesus, and they knew that Jesus had the power to expel them from the man. So the demons seeing a herd of pigs in the distance, told Jesus that if he was going to expel them from this man, then would Jesus allow the demons to enter into the herd of pigs. So Jesus expelled the demons and the demons left the man and entered into the pigs. Suddenly the pigs realized something was terribly wrong and every single pig rushed over the cliff to their death. The pigs evidently realized that they would rather be dead than to have those demons living within them.
Now the pig herders saw all this happening and they went to the town and told everyone all the details. Verse 17 tells of the townspeople response. "Then the people began to beg Jesus to leave their area." So the response of the townspeople was to tell Jesus to get out of there because they were holding Jesus responsible for the destruction of a whole herd of pigs. They were furious at Jesus because of this economic loss. All that these people could do was to scream at him because they no longer had this herd of pigs. So you can see that the people's only concern was the economic loss of the pigs.
What is really interesting is Jesus's response.
Jesus didn't try to explain to the townspeople that they no longer had to worry about this very dangerous demon possessed man. That he was no longer a threat to their safety. Nor did Jesus ask them if they wanted to know why this formerly demon possessed man was now able to sit there quietly, fully dressed, and in his right state of mind. Nor did he try to tell them that if he could expel demons from this man, then just think of the demons that he could expel from the rest of the townspeople. Neither did Jesus ask the people if they wanted to find out more about this man who could expel demons or why he even did what he did, or why he even came there in the first place. And Jesus certainly didn't argue with the people that the price of the pigs was rather small compared to their peace of mind and their eternal future. Jesus didn't even ask these people if they wanted to learn about the one who sent him. Jesus didn't do any of these things because he could see that the only thing any of these people really cared about was the economic loss of the pigs. They had their minds all made up and money was the number one thing in their lives. They exerted their free will and told Jesus to leave town and leave town now. They had exercised their free will.
Using their own free will, those people wanted nothing to do with Jesus. Their only interest was in worldly things and because of that, they told Jesus to hit the road and go some place else and kill pigs. Jesus knew exactly what was in their hearts, and that their minds were closed to anything that Jesus had to say. So what did Jesus do? Jesus simply turned around, boarded the boat and proceeded across the water and went into his own city. Without a word, he simply turned and left, and very possibly took with him their eternal salvation.
John 15:1-2 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He removes every branch in me that bears no fruit. Every branch that bears fruit he prunes to make it bear more fruit".
John 15:6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch, and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned".
1 Corinthians 10:12 "Therefore let him who thinks he is standing, beware, that he does not fall".
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Carla on
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Hi Stacey,
Stacey, you have said this "Yes you may lose salvation if you do not improve in faith..."
Phl 1:6 For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
Blessings, Carla -
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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on
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Salvation is a gift that requires faith (faith that God enables) and repentance that leads to being born-again. Being born-again literally means we are changed from the old to the new (2 Cor. 5:17). In the process we change from being hostile towards God and become His child and He becomes our Father (1 John 3:1).
Am I missing something here? We are no longer the old person. We are now indwelt by the Holy Spirit who marks us and is given as a deposit guaranteeing what is to come (1 Cor. 1:22). We are now His children and He is our Father. Somehow after all that we can become unchildren, unchanged, unindwelt and unborn? Thus, one believes the gift can be taken back once received? If the gift is revokable is it a gift in the first place? if that were possible according to the writer of Hebrews one could never be saved again and would be lost forever.
Growing toward maturity or the lack of growing in Christ is different from being not of Christ.What does it mean to abide? The real question is who does the abiding depend on? It is Jesus that holds us after He has saved us.
We are saved by grace and that salvation is maintained by grace. Any other economy for retention makes absolutely no sense Scripturally.
Lord Bless,
LT -
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Permalink Reply by Theresa on
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Michelle, you got so many great responses here, I did not read all of them but I sure hope I am not copying anybody here, I am led to respond of what the Holy Spirit has showed me.
Romans 12:2 tells us to renew our minds and Exodus 12:22,23 tells us the importance of abiding in what Jesus has done for us, His Blood and how important to apply and abide in Jesus. Salvation is a gift, we do not do anything to earn it, it is by grace and grace alone, the thief on the cross realized that Jesus did not do anything wrong to deserve hanging on the cross, the thief acknowledged and confessed that he and the other thief sinned to deserve it and Jesus did not do anything wrong, the Bible says we all have sinned and fell short of the Glory of God. I believe it is so important in our relationship with the Lord and others as well, is to keep the focus on what Jesus has done for us, all by Himself and all He is asking us to accept Him and when we do, it does not mean we are perfect or without faults, but surely we are Saints, we are Christians saved through His name and His Blood alone.
I have an earthly dad, I was born to him and had his last name, I have his DNA, no matter what I say or do, he is my father. Yes, I can move away, I can be bad, I can renounce him, but it does not change the fact that I am his daughter and he is my earthly biological father, I have his blood and his name, sure, I can change my name, I can do a lot to hurt him but it does not change the fact that I was born to him. Salvation is a gift and a person who got the gift can respond in so many ways, he can put the gift in a place and let it collect dust or he can throw it away or he can keep it and talk about it to every person, the fact does not change, it was given and the person received it.
God bless you,
Theresa -
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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on
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Losing Salvation
Ex 32:33
And the LORD said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book.
NKJV
So we are saying that the God that knows all, will have my name written on the book of eternal life and then He will erase it if I lose my salvation. Why write it in if He knows I am going to lose it anyways?
Psalm 69:28
Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, And not be written with the righteous.
THERE IS MORE THAN ONE BOOK IN THE WORD THAT WE NEED TO PAY ATTENTION TO. THERE IS ABOOK OF THE LIVING. SO COULD IT BE POSSIBLE that the name of those who continue to sin even tho they know God, God can erase them off the book of the Living.
In other word is the book of the living the book that has all the names of the pople presently a live and when God’s people live in rebelliousness, God who is our creator can choose to kill us before our time. Like we see in:
Acts 5: 5 Then Ananias, hearing these words, fell down and breathed his last.
Or
1 John 5:16
If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. -
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Permalink Reply by Yael Levi-Bénédict on
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David, the answer for this question of yours "So we are saying that the God that knows all, will have my name written on the book of eternal life and then He will erase it if I lose my salvation. Why write it in if He knows I am going to lose it anyways?"
IS FREE WILL! -
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Hey Yael,
I had missed your questions to my person, but I see others pick up in my absence. I think enough has been said to establish the reality that salvation can't be lost. Now I do not side step any issues since I love to discuss all topics pertaining to God and Godliness, but to respond to your answer that FREE WILL is the reason why our name may be erase, would cause us to deviate from the original question a bit, but I will venture into it if we try not to stray too far from the main topic.
I would first have to ask you what human free will is. Is our will stronger than the will of God? Can you have a Sovereign God and an unmovable object at the same time and in the same space? Who is God, God or men's free will? Does God actually ever say in the bible that He will respect men's free will, above His own? If He does show me where.
Are there actual books in heaven, physical books or is this whole description of books given in lieu of the correct terminology which is beyond human expressions? If God is immutable and does not change, if He saves someone and then changes His mind about them due to their performance, is not our God all knowing and already knew before He saved them what they would do, why saved them then?
How is free will the explanation that man can lose his salvation? Did man saved himself and hence can let go of his choice and work? Or was man saved?
Human free will explains all those questions my friend? Human free will is guided by our strongest inclinations. Are we saying free will is what is in control and not a beautiful, omnipotent and sovereign God?
We will always err in theology when we place the creation above the creator and the creator under the creation. Is a formula for disaster.
God is God and not man. God is in control of EVERYTHING AND NOT MAN. Keep God as high as God should be and men as low as He should be and it will all work out. Place men's ability to choose above God's ability to do whatever He wants even break men's so called free will and you just made yourself a god, or humanity god. -
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Permalink Reply by Stacey Osana Arquines on
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WHY ARE WE NOT BUSY BEARING FRUIT? ARE WE LOVING OTHERS AND SPREADING THE LOVE OF GOD, THE LOVE OF THE FATHER ALMIGHTY THROUGH JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD SAVIOR BY THE HOLY SPIRIT? WHETHER YOU ARE SAVED OR NOT THAT IS NOT UP TO YOU.
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ahhhhh love your zeal, but the matter at hand is one that merits study and in God's eyes is part of bearing fruit.
God commands us to seek assurance of our salvation and if we don’t or we say that is not possible than we are really arrogant because we are slandering God.
2 Peter 1:10 “therefore brethren be more diligent to make your election Sure,” through a diligent pursuit of that.
Am I number among the elect? The knowledge that we are brings great comfort as we face trials and tribulations. ASSURANCE IS NOT AN OPTION FOR US!!!! IS A MANDATE. THIS IS SOMETHING THAT SHOULD BE SETTLED IN OUR LIFES. THAT WE ARE IN CHRIST AND HAVE BEEN ADOPTED INTO THE FATHERS HOUSE.
LET ME STOP HERE AND GIVE US A QUICK LESSON ON JUSTIFICATION. WE ARE JUSTIFIED BY FAITH ALONE. SO WE DO NOT LOOK TO OUR WORKS TO GET US INTO HEAVEN.
THE REFORMERS IN THE 16 CENTURY SAID WE ARE JUSTIFIED BY FAITH ALONE BUT NOT BY A FAITH THAT IS ALONE.
IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH FORMULA FOR JUSTIFICATION YOU HAVE TO HAVE FAITH + WORKS
F + W = JUSTIFICATION ON THE PROTESTAND VIEW FAITH = JUSTIFICATION + WORKS.
OUR WORKS ADD NOTHING TO OUR JUSTIFICATION; WE ARE JUSTIFYING ONLY BY THE WORKS OF JESUS. MY WORKS DON’T COUNT A THING TOWARDS JUSTIFICATION. BUT REMEMBER THAT FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS A DEAD FAITH.
A FETES VIVA AS LUTHER ARGUES IS WHAT JUSTIFIES US – A LIVING FAITH.
SO HOW DO WE DETERMINE IF WE ARE TRUE SONS OF GOD, WELL EXAMINE THE FRUIT. DOES YOUR FRUIT LINE UP WITH YOUR CONFESSION OF FAITH?
BECARFUL NOT TO FOCUS YOUR ASSURANCE OF SALVATION ONLY ON YOUR PERFORMANCE, BECAUSE WE FAIL GOD. NOW I AM NOT SAYING THAT WE HAVE TO PERFORM THE FRUIT TO GET THE ASSURANCE. WHEN PETER TELLS US TO MAKE OUR ELECTION AND CALLING SURE IS SO WE MIGHT BARE FRUIT KNOWING WE ARE BORN AGAIN.
Stacey you said : "WHETHER YOU ARE SAVED OR NOT THAT IS NOT UP TO YOU."
And since you are yelling at me with the capitol letters hahahaha i am yelling back, hahahaha no no no J/k. Like you I use the upper case letters to emphasize.
What do you mean by that statement, break it down to me? Thanks!
Don't start with me shorty hahaahahaha Love you! -
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Permalink Reply by Gary on
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Well said.
Salvation and safety, being saved and being safe, really shouldn't be that far apart from each other.
Peace to all.
Seriously... grace and peace. -
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btw, why do people worry so much about losing their salvation?
I suppose wrt losing it, some might say, "yes, you can lose it!" while others might say, "no, you never had it!"
Personally, the emphasis seems bizarre to me given that time is just yet another dimension of our ten or however many dimensioned universe.
"Lose" vs. "never had" seems to be rooted in a linear, outside-of-space, view of time that, while most of the Biblical authors had and many in my own time have, I just don't have.
Besides...
Let's just assume for a moment that God is fair, just, good, loving, and all that stuff.
If I lose my salvation, and warrant whatever hellish punishment, so be it.
It would be because it is fair, just, good, loving, and all that stuff.
Because God is fair, just good, loving, and all that stuff.
It really ain't about me.
If I've thinking myself "saved," in order just to avoid that hellish punishment, to me, it seems that would be a suck-up, all-about-me, cover-my-tail kind of "faith" which personally seems odd.
On the other hand, if God were not fair, not good, not loving, and not all that stuff and were quite petulant, then that would simply be that.
He can do what he wants to do.
He's God.
All I can do is trust.
And be honest.
Even trust Him with my very own soul.
Rather than seeing "losing salvation" as a good topic for argumentation, I personally see it more so as a good question for reflection.
Rather than, "am I really saved?"
Perhaps we'd do well to ask, "do I really trust in God's goodness regardless the outcome to me?" -
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Hey Gary,
btw, why do people worry so much about losing their salvation?
There are many reasons people ask this question and they are not always referring to themselves, but often are concerned for a loved one. The question becomes moot when referring to self if the person is focused on drawing closer to God instead of wondering where the line is.
I suppose wrt losing it, some might say, "yes, you can lose it!" while others might say, "no, you never had it!"
The third response you omit is they have it and cannot lose it, because salvation when understood in context of Scripture includes a change whereas one is born-again and become a child of God. (Ref. John 3:3; 2 Corinthians 5:17 and 1 John 3:1)
"Lose" vs. "never had" seems to be rooted in a linear, outside-of-space, view of time that, while most of the Biblical authors had and many in my own time have, I just don't have.
We are linear beings in that we are born into time, live and die physically as linear time moves forward. God exists outside of time as we know it and is not bound by time, yet He has placed His creation in the linear time setting. What one does with their life during their “lifespan” matters. This is established by God in His Word, which is the only authority that matters in the end.
Besides...
Let's just assume for a moment that God is fair, just, good, loving, and all that stuff.
If I lose my salvation, and warrant whatever hellish punishment, so be it.
It would be because it is fair, just, good, loving, and all that stuff.
Because God is fair, just good, loving, and all that stuff.
It really ain't about me.
Though life is not all about us, Jesus sacrifice is very specific. He died for mankind in order that those who come to Him on God’s terms will be saved, meaning born-again. Jesus died for you, me, and all of mankind. When confronted with the truth of our sin and the reality of Jesus and His work through the cross man must make a choice.
If I've thinking myself "saved," in order just to avoid that hellish punishment, to me, it seems that would be a suck-up, all-about-me, cover-my-tail kind of "faith" which personally seems odd.
Salvation cannot be entered into only as a means of escape. That is not what repentance and being born-again is about. It is only part of the story. It is true that we are saved from eternal punishment, but even greater is that we are saved unto God. Our goal is not being sparred eternal punishment, nor can it be heaven. Our goal is God Himself and nothing less. To think one is saved and to ignore the relationship that one enters into at salvation is to miss the mark.
On the other hand, if God were not fair, not good, not loving, and not all that stuff and were quite petulant, then that would simply be that.
He can do what he wants to do.
He's God.
All I can do is trust.
And be honest.
Even trust Him with my very own soul.
The problem with your assumption is that you are ignoring some important facts. The nature and character of God can be know to a degree that assures us of Who He is and How He operates in many areas of our life, and especially regarding salvation. God is known through three major sources. God is known through His creation, His Word (Bible) and His Spirit. His Word gives clear teaching regarding how one can be saved and what that salvation will look like. His Spirit confirms these things. The world cannot and will not understand these truths as long as they reject the one who came to save them. Intellect alone cannot lead us to salvation. It is the Word of God coupled with the work of the Holy Spirit. The individual has the freedom to accept or reject, but what leads them to that point is a work of God, not simply man on a quest to find truth.
Rather than seeing "losing salvation" as a good topic for argumentation, I personally see it more so as a good question for reflection.
Rather than, "am I really saved?"
Perhaps we'd do well to ask, "do I really trust in God's goodness regardless the outcome to me?"
On what do you base your trust that God is good? Goodness is only one of numerous known attributes of God. What we trust in as believers is His promises given to us through His Word affirmed by the Holy Spirit recognizing that He always operates according to His nature that is revealed in His attributes. He is Holy, Just, Righteous, Love, and Compassionate to name just a few.
Some simple questions. Do you believe that the Bible is God’s Word or not? Do you trust in it to be true or not? Do you believe that Jesus is the Living Savior who died on the cross shedding His blood for the forgiveness of sin for all who will call upon His name and be saved? Do you believe He is the only way to salvation?
LT -
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Is this the Grand Inquisition here?
I could give a long-winded answer, but I doubt I systematically believe those things the way you do. I find myself difficult to put in a box.
I'm as likely to be reading Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, Dan Barker, Sam Harris, Daniel Dennett, Bertrand Russell, Thomas Paine, Carl Sagan, Bart Ehrman, Robert Funk, Karen Armstrong, Robert Alter, Anthony Flew, Bp John Shelby Spong, Marcus Borg, Fr Teihard de Chardin, Metropolitan Kalistos Ware, St Nikodimos of the Holy Mountain, St Gregory of Nyssa, Thomas Merton, Richard Rohr, Henri Nouwen, Eusebius, St Augustine, G.K. Chesterton, Phyllis Tickle, Brian McLaren, Richard Foster as I am to be reading Philip Yancey, C.S. Lewis, Alister McGrath, N.T. Wright, Timothy Keller, Francis Schaeffer, Lee Strobel, Darrell Bock, Craig Evans, Bill Bright, Jack Hayford, Oral Roberts, John Hagee, Dinesh D'Souza, Ravi Zacharias, John Frame, Kenneth Boa, R.C. Sproul, Gleason Archer, Norman Gesiler, and Josh McDowell.
And much more likely than any of those, I'm likely reading my Bible--in daily Christian prayer.
But if you insist on a (simplistic?) yes/no answer to those questions I find profoundly deep and spiritual, worthy of a lifetime's reflection and sincere pursuit, the answer would be "no." -
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