What is Free Will?

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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on March 2, 2011 at 8:54pm

I don't really know, but i think they are now as we will be in a glorified state. They have the ability to chose but not to sin (the holy angels of course). We will have the same. REally we have the ability now to overcome sin - Hallelujah - Praise be to my Jesus! I love you Lord.

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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on March 3, 2011 at 1:15am

By A.W. Pink

2. The Bondage Of The Human Will.

In any treatise that proposes to deal with the human will, its nature and functions, respect should be had to the will in three different men, namely, unfallen Adam, the sinner, and the Lord Jesus Christ. In unfallen Adam the will was free, free in both directions, free toward good and free toward evil. Adam was created in a state of innocency, but not in a state of holiness, as is so often assumed and asserted. Adam’s will was therefore in a condition of moral equipoise: that is to say, in Adam there was no constraining bias in him toward either good or evil, and as such, Adam differed radically from all his descendants, as well as from “the Man Christ Jesus.” But with the sinner it is far otherwise. The sinner is born with a will that is not in a condition of moral equipoise, because in him there is a heart that is “deceitful above all things and desperately wicked”, and this gives him a bias toward evil. So, too, with the Lord Jesus it was far otherwise: He also differed radically from unfallen Adam. The Lord Jesus Christ could not sin because he was “the Holy One of God.” Before he was born into this world it was said to Mary, “The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that Holy Thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God” Luke 1:35. Speaking reverently then, we say, that the will of the Son of Man was not in a condition of moral equipoise, that is, capable of turning toward either good or evil. The will of the Lord Jesus was biased toward that which is good because, side by side with his sinless, holy, perfect humanity, was his eternal Deity. Now in contradistinction from the will of the Lord Jesus which was biased toward good, and Adam’s will which, before his fall, was in a condition of moral equipoise — capable of turning toward either good or evil — the sinner’s will is biased toward evil, and therefore is free in one direction only, namely, in the direction of evil. The sinner’s will is enslaved because it is in bondage to and is the servant of a depraved heart.

 

In what does the sinner’s freedom consist? This question is naturally suggested by what we have just said above. The sinner is “free” in the sense of being unforced from without. God never forces the sinner to sin. But the sinner is not “free” to do either good or evil, because an evil heart within is ever inclining him toward sin. Let us illustrate what we have in mind. I hold in my hand a book. I release it; what happens? It falls. In which direction? Downwards; always downwards. Why? Because, answering the law of gravity, its own weight sinks it. Suppose I desire that book to occupy a position three feet higher; then what? I must lift it; a power outside of that book must raise it. Such is the relationship which fallen man sustains toward God. While divine power upholds him, he is preserved from plunging still deeper into sin; let that power be withdrawn, and he falls — his own weight (of sin) drags him down. God does not push him down, any more than I did that book. Let all divine restraint be removed, and every man is capable of becoming, would become, a Cain, a Pharaoh, a Judas. How then is the sinner to move heavenwards? By an act of his own will? Not so. A power outside of himself must grasp hold of him and lift him every inch of the way. The sinner is free, but free in one direction only — free to fall, free to sin. As the Word expresses it: “For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness” Rom. 6:20. The sinner is free to do as he pleases, always as he pleases (except as he is restrained by God), but his pleasure is to sin.

 

In the opening paragraph of this chapter we insisted that a proper conception of the nature and function of the will is of practical importance, nay, that it constitutes a fundamental test of theological orthodoxy or doctrinal soundness. We wish to amplify this statement and attempt to demonstrate its accuracy. The freedom or bondage of the will was the dividing line between Augustinianism and Pelagianism, and in more recent times between Calvinism and Arminianism. Reduced to simple terms, this means, that the difference involved was the affirmation or denial of the total depravity of man. In taking the affirmative we shall now consider,

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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on April 3, 2011 at 1:10am

 

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Permalink Reply by Michael on April 3, 2011 at 2:55pm

Unfortunaly I could not watch the vedios you posted on Spurgeon.  I have read his works and I am a big fan.  Right their with Tozer, Bounds. 

Free will seems to be related to predestination, vs forknowledge. 

Ro. 8:29 For whom he did foreknow. he also did predistinate to be comformed to the image of his Son, that he might  be the firstborn among many brethren.

So what is the differance between foreknowledge and predestination?

The scripture you quoted also shows another great theme in the Bible.  God always brings victory though defeat.  He did it with Joseph.  Adam and Eve at the fall, God made the promise of the coming Messiah.  All of men corrupted themselves God brought victory through Noah.  All the way though the Bible God brings victory though mans defeat.

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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on April 3, 2011 at 7:38pm

Michael -

 

Sorry to hear that you could not watch the vids but here is a beautiful article dealing with Forknowledge. Enjoy.

 

From: http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/Attributes/attrib_04.htm

THE ATTRIBUTES OF GOD
4. THE FOREKNOWLEDGE OF GOD

What controversies have been engendered by this subject in the past! But what truth of Holy Scripture is there which has not been made the occasion of theological and ecclesiastical battles? The deity of Christ, His virgin birth, His atoning death, His second advent; the believer’s justification, sanctification, security; the church, its organization, officers, discipline; baptism, the Lord’s supper, and a score of other precious truths might be mentioned. Yet, the controversies which have been waged over them did not close the mouths of God’s faithful servants; why, then, should we avoid the vexed question of God’s Foreknowledge, because, forsooth, there are some who will charge us with fomenting strife? Let others contend if they will, our duty is to bear witness according to the light vouchsafed us.

There are two things concerning the Foreknowledge of God about which many are in ignorance: the meaning of the term, its Scriptural scope. Because this ignorance is so widespread, it is an easy matter for preachers and teachers to palm off perversions of this subject, even upon the people of God. There is only one safeguard against error, and that is to be established in the faith; and for that, there has to be prayerful and diligent study, and a receiving with meekness the engrafted Word of God. Only then are we fortified against the attacks of those who assail us. There are those today who are misusing this very truth in order to discredit and deny the absolute sovereignty of God in the salvation of sinners. Just as higher critics are repudiating the Divine inspiration of the Scriptures; evolutionists, the work of God in creation; so some pseudo Bible teachers are perverting His foreknowledge in order to set aside His unconditional election unto eternal life.

When the solemn and blessed subject of Divine foreordination is expounded, when God’s eternal choice of certain ones to be conformed to the image of His Son is set forth, the Enemy sends along some man to argue that election is based upon the foreknowledge of God, and this "foreknowledge" is interpreted to mean that God foresaw certain ones would be more pliable than others, that they would respond more readily to the strivings of the Spirit, and that because God knew they would believe, He, accordingly, predestinated them unto salvation. But such a statement is radically wrong. It repudiates the truth of total depravity, for it argues that there is something good in some men. It takes away the independency of God, for it makes His decrees rest upon what He discovers in the creature. It completely turns things upside down, for in saying God foresaw certain sinners would believe in Christ, and that because of this, He predestinated them unto salvation, is the very reverse of the truth. Scripture affirms that God, in His high sovereignty, singled out certain ones to be recipients of His distinguishing favors (Acts 13:48), and therefore He determined to bestow upon them the gift of faith. False theology makes God’s foreknowledge of our believing the cause of His election to salvation; whereas, God’s election is the cause, and our believing in Christ is the effect.

Ere proceeding further with our discussion of this much misunderstood theme, let us pause and define our terms. What is meant by "foreknowledge?" "To know beforehand," is the ready reply of many. But we must not jump at conclusions, nor must we turn to Webster’s dictionary as the final court of appeal, for it is not a matter of the etymology of the term employed. What is needed is to find out how the word is used in Scripture. The Holy Spirit’s usage of an expression always defines its meaning and scope. It is failure to apply this simple, rule which is responsible for so much confusion and error. So many people assume they already know the signification of a certain word used in Scripture, and then they are too dilatory to test their assumptions by means of a concordance. Let us amplify this point.

Take the word "flesh." Its meaning appears to be so obvious that many would regard it as a waste of time to look up its various connections in Scripture. It is hastily assumed that the word is synonymous with the physical body, and so no inquiry is made. But, in fact, "flesh" in Scripture frequently includes far more than what is corporeal; all that is embraced by the term can only be ascertained by a diligent comparison of every occurrence of it and by a study of each separate context. Take the word "world." The average reader of the Bible imagines this word is the equivalent for the human race, and consequently, many passages where the term is found are wrongly interpreted. Take the word immortality. Surely it requires no study! Obviously it has reference to the indestructibility of the soul. Ah, my reader, it is foolish and wrong to assume anything where the Word of God is concerned. If the reader will take the trouble to carefully examine each passage where "mortal" and "immortal" are found, it will be seen these words are never applied to the soul, but always to the body.

Now what has just been said on "flesh," the "world," immortality, applies with equal force to the terms know and "foreknow." Instead of imagining that these words signify no more than a simple cognition, the different passages in which they occur require to be carefully weighed. The word "foreknowledge" is not found in the Old Testament. But know occurs there frequently. When that term is used in connection with God, it often signifies to regard with favour, denoting not mere cognition but an affection for the object in view. "I know thee by name" (Ex. 33:17). "Ye have been rebellious against the Lord from the day that I knew you" (Deut. 9:24). "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee" (Jer. 1:5). "They have made princes and I knew it not" (Hos. 8:4). "You only have I known of all the families of the earth" (Amos 3:2). In these passages knew signifies either loved or appointed.

In like manner, the word "know" is frequently used in the New Testament, in the same sense as in the Old Testament. "Then will I profess unto them, I never knew you" (Matt. 7:23). "I am the good shepherd and know My sheep and am known of Mine" (John 10:14). "If any man love God, the same is known of Him" (1 Cor. 8:3). "The Lord knoweth them that are His" (2 Tim. 2:19).

Now the word "foreknowledge" as it is used in the New Testament is less ambiguous than in its simple form "to know." If every passage in which it occurs is carefully studied, it will be discovered that it is a moot point whether it ever has reference to the mere perception of events which are yet to take place. The fact is that "foreknowledge" is never used in Scripture in connection with events or actions; instead, it always has reference to persons. It is persons God is said to "foreknow," not the actions of those persons. In proof of this we shall now quote each passage where this expression is found.

The first occurrence is in Acts 2:23. There we read, "Him being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain." If careful attention is paid to the wording of this verse it will be seen that the apostle was not there speaking of God’s foreknowledge of the act of the crucifixion, but of the Person crucified: "Him (Christ) being delivered by," etc.

The second occurrence is in Romans 8;29,30. "For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image, of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called," etc. Weigh well the pronoun that is used here. It is not what He did foreknow, but whom He did. It is not the surrendering of their wills nor the believing of their hearts but the persons themselves, which is here in view.

"God hath not cast away His people which He foreknew" (Rom. 11:2). Once more the plain reference is to persons, and to persons only.

The last mention is in 1 Peter 1:2: "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father." Who are elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father? The previous verse tells us: the reference is to the "strangers scattered" i.e. the Diaspora, the Dispersion, the believing Jews. Thus, here too the reference is to persons, and not to their foreseen acts.

Now in view of these passages (and there are no more) what scriptural ground is there for anyone saying God "foreknew" the acts of certain ones, viz., their "repenting and believing," and that because of those acts He elected them unto salvation? The answer is, None whatever. Scripture never speaks of repentance and faith as being foreseen or foreknown by God. Truly, He did know from all eternity that certain ones would repent and believe, yet this is not what Scripture refers to as the object of God’s "foreknowledge." The word uniformly refers to God’s foreknowing persons; then let us "hold fast the form of sound words" (2 Tim. 1:13).

Another thing to which we desire to call particular attention is that the first two passages quoted above show plainly and teach implicitly that God’s "foreknowledge" is not causative, that instead, something else lies behind, precedes it, and that something is His own sovereign decree. Christ was "delivered by the (1) determinate counsel and (2) foreknowledge of God." (Acts 2:23). His "counsel" or decree was the ground of His foreknowledge. So again in Romans 8:29. That verse opens with the word "for," which tells us to look back to what immediately precedes. What, then, does the previous verse say? This, "all things work together for good to them. . . .who are the called according to His purpose." Thus God’s foreknowledge is based upon His purpose or decree (see Ps. 2:7).

God foreknows what will be because He has decreed what shall be. It is therefore a reversing of the order of Scripture, a putting of the cart before the horse, to affirm that God elects because He foreknows people. The truth is, He "foreknows" because He has elected. This removes the ground or cause of election from outside the creature, and places it in God’s own sovereign will. God purposed in Himself to elect a certain people, not because of anything good in them or from them, either actual or foreseen, but solely out of His own mere pleasure. As to why He chose the ones He did, we do not know, and can only say, "Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Thy sight." The plain truth of Romans 8:29 is that God, before the foundation of the world, singled out certain sinners and appointed them unto salvation (2 Thess. 2:13). This is clear from the concluding words of the verse: "Predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son," etc. God did not predestinate those whom He foreknew were "conformed," but, on the contrary, those whom He "foreknew" (i.e., loved and elected) He predestinated to be conformed. Their conformity to Christ is not the cause, but the effect of God’s foreknowledge and predestination.

God did not elect any sinner because He foresaw that he would believe, for the simple but sufficient reason that no sinner ever does believe until God gives him faith; just as no man sees until God gives him sight. Sight is God’s gift, seeing is the consequence of my using His gift. So faith is God’s gift (Eph. 1:8,9), believing is the consequence of my using His gift. If it were true that God had elected certain ones to be saved because in due time they would believe, then that would make believing a meritorious act, and in that event the saved sinner would have ground for "boasting," which Scripture emphatically denies: Ephesians 2:9.

Surely God’s Word is plain enough in teaching that believing is not a meritorious act. It affirms that Christians are a people "who have believed through grace" (Acts 18:27). If then, they have believed "through grace," there is absolutely nothing meritorious about "believing," and if nothing meritorious, it could not be the ground or cause which moved God to choose them. No; God’s choice proceeds not from anything in us, or anything from us, but solely from His own sovereign pleasure. Once more, in Romans 11:5, we read of "a remnant according to the election of grace." There it is, plain enough; election itself is of grace, and grace is unmerited favour something for which we had no claim upon God whatsoever.

It thus appears that it is highly important for us to have clear and scriptural views of the "foreknowledge" of God. Erroneous conceptions about it lead inevitably to thoughts most dishonoring to Him. The popular idea of Divine foreknowledge is altogether inadequate. God not only knew the end from the beginning, but He planned, fixed, predestinated everything from the beginning. And, as cause stands to effect, so God’s purpose is the ground of His prescience. If then the reader be a real Christian, he is so because God chose him in Christ before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4), and chose not because He foresaw you would believe, but chose simply because it pleased Him to choose: chose you notwithstanding your natural unbelief. This being so, all the glory and praise belongs alone to Him. You have no ground for taking any credit to yourself. You have "believed through grace" (Acts 18:27), and that, because your very election was "of grace" (Rom. 11:5).

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Permalink Reply by Michael on April 3, 2011 at 8:17pm

Wow! That's a lot of info.  But it does answer the question on free will.  I guess the next question is.  If God predestined us by His forknowledge, How much resisting the Holy Spirit was our free will?  Or how quickly we submitted to the Holy Spirit was our free will? 

I have to leave town again so I want be able to cont. the discussion.  But it has been good food for thought.

And that really was some good info you dug up.

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Permalink Reply by Ginnybee on April 11, 2011 at 6:45pm

 >>>Dave:  "It is always good to hear from you. When you chose over options that would have been better for you, you chose according to your strongest inclination at that point, to go for the immediate ratification etc. you did no chose the wises option but you chose according to your strongest desires/inclinations for that particular time.

 

Your strongest inclination is the thing you chose, even if it’s not what you would generally choose.

 

>>if as you say, we are controlled by our influences, then you are suggesting that we make our own choices based on personal experiences, key word being personal (individualized), rather than on simple knowledge of fact and fiction, which defeats your case for predestination.

 

Sister - I said, "our choices are influenced by many factors such as prejudice; favoritism etc so free will is caused by the influence of many different things, so it is not free at all."

 

I did not say they are control by them, but influence, which make a big difference.

 

Beloved we live in a world where God is gonna accomplish his plan and his creation has the ability to make choices, which are influence by many factors, but God is the owner of the universe and can do whatever He wants with it. That is a beautiful truth because we serve a beautiful, holy and perfect God, so we got it made. :) It is a beautiful world and life when we are in his will, even if things are falling apart all around us, if we have God, we have it all."/span>

 

In response, thanks Dave. I see what you are saying. Yet, even though our free will is caused by many different influences, we remain free to choose within the perimeters of our influences. For instance, say I’m confronted with a choice being for Christ or against Christ, the decision I make depends on things familiar to me, which influence my decision. Yet, I do own the freedom to choose within the perimeters of things familiar to me. Say I’m presented with the Gospel message for the first time. I now have the knowledge of the Gospel plus knowledge of my life before the Gospel was presented, thus I can freely make a decision within those perimeters. I can choose to accept or not to accept the message. Therein is our free will. Yes?

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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on April 16, 2011 at 11:30pm

Hey you,  

Here is Johnyyyyyyy..... :)

 

>>Say I’m presented with the Gospel message for the first time. I now have the knowledge of the Gospel plus knowledge of my life before the Gospel was presented, thus I can freely make a decision within those perimeters. I can choose to accept or not to accept the message. Therein is our free will. Yes?

 

For most situations in life your logic is flawless, however when we applied that logic to the Gospel message we find there are other factors to consider. We know that none come to Christ unless the Father draws them, we know that we are dead in our traspasses and sins and none chose after Christ, not one. The Lord made sure to be emphatetic in that statement. "...No, not one" God calls all men to repantace, He commands we repent, when we don't, we will face the consequences. Here is where Divine Soverngnty collide with our ability to make choices/free will. Before we are regenerated, born again, our inclination is to sin, not to turn from it and follow God. So the logic you are using above, though true in all other aspects of life cannot be applied flowlessly to the salvation experience. There is also the conviction of the Holy Spirit to keep in mind and other things.

 

Blessings beloved.

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Permalink Reply by Rita Cullimore on April 15, 2011 at 5:02am

>Scripture affirms that God, in His high sovereignty, singled out certain ones to be recipients of His distinguishing favors (Acts 13:48), and therefore He determined to bestow upon them the gift of faith./p>

³ For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly^a, according as God hath dealt to **every man**  * the* measure of faith.

^a soberly: Gr. to sobriety

The Holy Bible : King James Version. electronic ed. of the 1769 edition of the 1611 Authorized Version. Bellingham WA : Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1995, S. Ro 12:3

Since every man is given the measure of faith, freewill must be what they do with it.

Dav EE

For the quote I posted and the verse I referenced, I have to disagree with

 THE ATTRIBUTES OF GOD
4. THE FOREKNOWLEDGE OF GOD

There also are several places where word twisting came to mind but there is too much to cite in the time I have.

Blessings, Bro,

Rita

 

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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on April 15, 2011 at 7:56am

My sister Rita,

 >>Scripture affirms that God, in His high sovereignty, singled out certain ones to be recipients of His distinguishing favors (Acts 13:48), and therefore He determined to bestow upon them the gift of faith.

 

Romans 12:3 (New International Version, ©2011)

 

Romans 12:³ For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you.

 

⁸ For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— ⁹ not by works, so that no one can boast. ¹⁰ For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. Ephesians 2:8-9

 

The word of God Clearly states above that faith is a gift. Our faith is a gift so that none can boast. We are talking about the initial faith to believe. Once we are in the family, than we can increase our faith by hearing the word of God, for faith comes by hearing.... By abiding in Christ.

 

Acts 13:48 (New International Version, ©2011)
48 When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

  

I do not believe that I myself can make it any more clear than what scripture says here.

 

Hebrews 12:2 Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

 

God is the author of our faith, not you, nor I beloved, but God.

 

>>...according as God hath dealt to **every man**  * the* measure of faith.

 

Romans 12:3 is not referring to every man in the world. Romans 12:¹ Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. ² Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

 

Romans 12 is talking to the Saints. So the "every man" here is referring to the brothers and sisters as it is pointed out in Romans 12:1.

 

I firmly believe that Salvation if of the Lord, all by Grace beloved and that we freely choose Christ once God has draws us to Himself, as John 6 states. No one can come to the Jesus, unless the Father draws him.  We freely choose Him, Amen!

 

 ⁴³ “Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered. ⁴⁴ “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

 

The article above is a true blessing to my life and I see no word twisting in it.

 

Blessings sis.

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Permalink Reply by Rita Cullimore on April 16, 2011 at 4:59am

David,

Are you saying that if a person isn't saved, that they have no faith? Or that one has to be saved to have faith?

Where does it stand if *every man among you* is a Christian?

I am truly trying to see what you are saying but it is escaping me.

Help me with this, Bro.

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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on April 16, 2011 at 6:54pm

Rita,

 

Are you saying that if a person isn't saved, that they have no faith?

 

I don't understand your question when thinking of my post. Why would you ask me such a question from my post? What makes you think I am saying what you are asking me?

 

A person is not saved, if they do not repent and believe.  

 

>>Where does it stand if *every man among you* is a Christian?

 

Not trying to avoid your questions here beloved, but I simply do not understand them. Where does what stand sis?

 

I am trying to understand your post as well, but we are in different pages I think, so if you could explain to me what you are asking me, I will be happy to respond sis. :)

 

Love you.

 

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