All About GOD - Growing Relationships with Jesus and Others
Are We Dispensationalists or covenant believers?
For those that are interested in an in depth discussion about dispensationalism and the couple other options out there, jump on in. I know Roy wanted to discuss it; I am just leaving it out in the open for others that want to join in and help us work this through.
For those that haven’t looked into this subject let me say it is a big subject. It deals with the overall theological grid we interpret scripture from. It is basically a system of hermeneutics (the system that helps us interpret scripture). I know of 3 main choices on the market and maybe 4.
1. Dispensationalism
2. Covenant theology
3. Progressive dispensationalism
4. (maybe) preterism- also called "realized eschatology" (not sure if this is in the same category, but as I read a bit on this it has a hermeneutic all to itself as does dispensationalism, so I think it is one of the "big systems" on the market for interpreting the old and new testament writings)
Dispensationalism is the system that has given rise to such doctrines as a 7 year tribulation, rebuilt temple, pre-trib (and any-trib) rapture. These I think are accepted by most people in my beloved Pentecostal family.Dispensationalism confused me because using dispensationalism hermeneutics, if done honestly and consistently, leads to some things that are clearly not normative. For example, if we hold to normative dispensationalism we must believe that the kingdom of God has not come in any form, even partially, at this point in history. We must believe that the new covenant has not begun and wont until the millennium in which it will be exclusively for Jews according to the flesh. Now I can’t imagine anyone saying the kingdom didn’t come at least in part with Jesus first coming and that the new covenant is not for the church, or even for this age!!!
Here I just want to start the ball rolling and from there we can jump into the details as they come up. I need your help; I am no expert in the subject. I expect new tangents to come up. Hope others will throw in their ideas on this, but if not I hope at least our discussion won’t be a nuisance. It will get a bit technical and so might bore many, feel free to ignore our posts on the subject!
Anyone out there interested here are some questions to jump-start things. Answer some of these questions from your perspective. You don’t have to do all of them, just pick one you think is important to you. Or just ask a new one and answer it!! Anything will do!!!
1. Why do you think this is an important subject? What issues are at stake when dealing with dispensationalism or other systems on the market?
2. Do we have to have a system, or can we "just stick with the bible”?
3. Can we just pick and choose from different systems and still be consistent?
4. Do you think dispensationalists or covenant theology is right? :)
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on
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I will try to apply the three different hermeneutics to the following verse. Remember I am just doing my best to represent the three schools of thought accurately. But I am not convinced I know enough about the, so I will depend on those more informed out there to correct me when I step out of bounds. Sorry for its length, but I think that this will help us to see how the different choices work out in the theological "real world"!!!
the verse is
Jer 31:31-34
31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah--
32 "not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD.
33 "But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
34 "No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."
CLASSIC DISPENSATIONALIST INTERPRETATION:
(COMPLETELY LITERAL ACCORDING TO HISTORICAL CONTEXT)
This passage shows that only the Jews will partake of the new covenant. The church partakes of "a" new covenant, but not the one referred to in this passage. Since it says "with the house of Israel and Judah", we must take it LITERALLY! This scripture will not be fulfilled until the millennium when "they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them". Again it is to be taken literally and obviously that has not taken place yet. From this passage we see that this is not the "gospel of grace" but the "gospel of the kingdom" because it refers to law, not grace. "I will put My LAW in their minds". The "new covenant" of this passage is an extension of the Law of Israel, not the gospel of grace the church has received.
COVENANT THEOLOGY INTERPRETATION:
(COMPLETELY DEPENDANT ON THE APOSTLE'S INTERPRETATION)
We are not to interpret this passage from the context it was written in, but from the teaching of the apostles. Since they have the spirit of god and the authority to interpret the scriptures we must accept their interpretation. It does matter what the original readers thought of this verse, but what matters most is what the apostles say, for it is written:
Eph 3:3-6
3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already,
4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ),
5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets:
6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel,
So we know that they say this scripture is fulfilled in the Church, the “Israel of God" (Gal. 6:16). We are not looking to a future fulfillment of this passage, since the apostles say it has been fulfilled. This passage is referring to the "Church" when it says "Israel and Judah". The church has replaced Israel according to apostolic interpretation.
PROGRESSIVE DISPENSATIONALIST INTERPRETATION:
(LITERAL ACCORDING TO HISTORICAL CONTEXT, BUT ALSO DEPENDANT UPON APOSTOLIC INPUT)
It is true that the apostles apply this passage to the church. The church does partake of the new covenant now. But only because they have been "grafted into the olive tree" (Romans 11) of Israel. Jews and Gentiles are united in Christ and have become "One Body" and that "One Body" is Israel. But this passage will not be LITERALLY fulfilled until "All Israel" believes, as it says in
Rom 11:25-27
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, and He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them, when I take away their sins."
So we need to take the apostles interpretation as being a "partial fulfillment" of the prophecy, but not yet a "complete fulfillment". The apostles also were waiting for a "complete and literal fulfillment" of this passage in Jeremiah. The above passage from Romans 11 shows this. So the gentiles can be "fellow heirs" with Israel (Eph 2-3) but they do not "replace" Israel. Until the physical descendants of Abraham are "grafted into" Christ the passage is not literally and completely fulfilled. The new covenant has begun and is being experienced by the church, but that doesn’t mean that the scripture has been completely fulfilled.
I believe this is how the systems under discussion interpret this passage. They apply the same hermeneutical rules to other Old Testament passages. Again, I think the PD, hermeneutic best lines up with how we generally interpret scripture. We take into account both the interpretation of the apostles and the literal context of the Old Testament passages.
Is my thinking right about this? Am I understanding the three systems clearly?
Input?
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Permalink Reply by RoyW on
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David,
I don't know but I sure agree with your assessment if your above is correct. I do believe in the CT position that new information is given us through the apostles. Could it be that Israel is saved at the end of this age in which we are in presently? Israel has promises that God will restore her land. That has not happened and probably won't until He returns. We (US or NATO of such) is not going to get it done. The present church is today enjoying the New Covenant in Christ.
Roy
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David,
I am really enjoying your posts in this subject. I am noticing that not too many are coming aboard. I hope we can somehow generate some interest in the topic. I am going to share something that some may consider controversial but it addresses the end time.
Some have been concerned about the length of time that it is taking Jesus to come back. Peter addressed this even he probably did not consider the length of time that it has been:
2 Peter 3:3-4 First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, "Where is this 'coming ' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation." NIV
An explanation for the length of the delay can be found in James 5:7. James speaks of the early and latter rain. The early rain was in the fall when the seed was planted and the latter rain was around the time prior to the harvest when the fruit of the plant was forming within the plant. When Jesus was speaking to the end times in Matt 24, we see an early fulfillment and a latter fulfillment.
This, we have not yet seen which I accept as a literal happening:
Matt 24:30-31 "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. NIV
This portion of the discourse is definitely speaking of the harvest which occurs after the latter rain. James is giving us some insight to the gap between the early fulfillment and the latter fulfillment. He shows a farmer waiting patiently for the latter rain as he anticipates the harvest. The rain can be equated to the outpouring of the Holy Spirit which Peter spoke of:
Acts 2:17
17'And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,
That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your young men shall see visions,
Your old men shall dream dreams. NKJV
This, of course, comes from Joel 2:38. However, from Joel and the other prophets, we can definitely see the promise of a complete restoration of Israel. It appears that even Jesus considered this time as coming very soon but He did mention that He really didn't know the time or hour when all these things would be fulfilled. Only the Father knows. In James 5:7 we see the Father waiting patiently for the latter rain which could be happening even now as we are seeing a great outpouring of God's Spirit throughout the earth - notwithstanding the lukewarmness we see in America. America is obviously not the only nation important to the plan of God. Revival is going on all over the earth. This really could be the latter rain. Whether or not it is, this second coming of Christ as expressed in Matt 24 could be just around the corner. When Jesus returns this time, He will be coming to establish His millennial reign and restore Israel. I see two separate entities - the church and the nation Israel in full operation at that time.
Roy
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I guess this kind of perspective tends to drop me into the dispensalitionalist department.
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I will continue in the dispensationalism as compared to covenant theology. Isa 65 is a prime example of the two different interpretations. It begins:
Isa 65:1 "I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me;
I was found by those who did not seek me.
To a nation that did not call on my name,
I said, 'Here am I, here am I.' NIV
We all agree this is speaking to the Gentile nations that did not ask for but did receive the Gospel message and received it. The Lord goes on to say that He reached out His hands to His own people but they rejected Him and went their own ways. Therefore, He rejected them. Although there was a remnant we read of and that Paul did later speak of:
Isa 65:8 This is what the LORD says:
"As when juice is still found in a cluster of grapes
and men say, 'Don't destroy it,
there is yet some good in it,'
so will I do in behalf of my servants;
I will not destroy them all. NIV
Rom 9:27Isaiah cries out concerning Israel:
"Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea,
only the remnant will be saved. NIV
and again:
Rom 11:5-6
5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace. NIV
This is speaking of the church age of which we are now a part. The Gentiles are primarily the ones that are receiving the glorious Gospel of our Lord while only a remnant of Israel does so. This continues until the full number of the Gentiles come in. Then God will change course. The dispensationalist believe Jesus will return at that time and set up a millennial reign upon the earth. This time period is spoken of in Revelation 20:
Rev 20:4-6 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years. NIV
Now, going back to Isaiah we see him also shifting gears. I am copying here a long passage:
Isa 65:17-22
7 "Behold, I will create
new heavens and a new earth.
The former things will not be remembered,
nor will they come to mind.
18 But be glad and rejoice forever
in what I will create,
for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight
and its people a joy.
19 I will rejoice over Jerusalem
and take delight in my people;
the sound of weeping and of crying
will be heard in it no more.
20 "Never again will there be in it
an infant who lives but a few days,
or an old man who does not live out his years;
he who dies at a hundred
will be thought a mere youth;
he who fails to reach a hundred
will be considered accursed.
21 They will build houses and dwell in them;
they will plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
22 No longer will they build houses and others live in them,
or plant and others eat.
For as the days of a tree,
so will be the days of my people;
my chosen ones will long enjoy
the works of their hands. NIV
The dispensationalist will interpret these verses as meaning a future time while the people of the covenant theology will interpret these verses as being fulfilled during the present age. Since we do not see these things literally happening they will make these verses into an allegory using symbolism for a proper interpretation. We dispensationalists believe there is really coming a day when the wolf and the lamb will once again lie down together as they once did before the flood.
While part of the prophecy may be completely fulfilled in a post-millennial period, most will be fulfilled during that 1000 year reign of Christ with His church upon this earth.
Roy
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Kb4Jesus,
What I find sis as I continue to look at the DT and CT camp is that these systems continue to change and actually look much more like each other with major differences in eschatology (future events/prophecy) and other details, but their hermeneutics (the way they interpret the word) are becoming increasingly alike. That is my personal opinion. As always I am open to correction.
According to CT
"Israel" may mean either literal, physical descendants of Jacob or the figurative, spiritual Israel, depending on context.
COVENANT THEOLOGY
(Charles Hodge, Loraine Boettner, Louis Berkhof, John Murray, B.B. Warfield)
1.Always Calvinist. Usually 5-point
2.Accepts 'normal' interpretation of the Bible text (allows both literal and figurative)
3. Almost always accepts the idea of The "Analogy of Faith."
4. "Israel" may mean either literal, physical descendants of Jacob or the figurative, spiritual Israel, depending on context.
5. "Israel of God" in Gal. 6:16 means spiritual Israel, parallel to Gal. 3:29; Rom. 2:28-29 , 9:6; Phil. 3:3.
6. God has always had only 1 people, the Church gradually developed.
7. The Church began in O. T. (Acts 7:38) and reached fulfillment in the N. T.
8. There are many O. T. prophecies of the N. T. Church.
9. Some O. T. prophecies are for the literal nation of Israel, others are for spiritual Israel.
10. God's main purpose in history is Christ and secondarily the Church.
11. The Church is the culmination of God"s saving purpose for the ages.
12. The main heir to Abraham"s covenant was Christ and spiritual Israel.
13. The eternal Covenant of Redemption was within the Trinity to effect election.
14. God made a conditional Covenant of Works* with Adam as representative forall his posterity.
15. God made a Covenant of Grace with Christ and His people, including Adam.
16. Israel was right to accept the Covenant Mt. Sinai.
17. The "New Covenant" of Jer. 31 is the same as in Lk. 22; both are for spiritual Israel according to Heb. 8.
18. God"s program in history is mainly through related covenants.
19. No man has ever been saved by works, but only by grace.
20. All men who have ever been saved have been saved by faith in Christ as their sin-bearer, which has been progressively revealed in every age.
21. O. T. believers believed in the Gospel of Messiah as sin-bearer mainly by the sacrifices as types and prophecies.
22. The Holy Spirit has indwelt believers in all ages, especially in the present N. T. era, and will not be withdrawn.
23. Jesus made only an offer of the spiritual Kingdom, which was rejected by literal Israel but has gradually been accepted by spiritual Israel.
24. Believers in all ages are all "in Christ" and part of the Body and Bride of Christ.
25. The Law has 3 uses: to restrain sin in society, to lead to Christ, and to instruct Christians in godliness. The ceremonial Laws have been abolished; the civil laws have been abolished except for their general equity; the moral laws continue.
26. O. T. laws are still in effect unless abrogated in the N.T.
27. The Church is the Kingdom of God. Covenanters are usually AMillennial, sometimes Pre-Millennial or Post-Millennial, rarely Pre-Tribulational.
28. The O. T. sacrifices were fulfilled and forever abolished in Christ.
29. Christ fulfilled the Covenant to Abraham. Some Covenanters believe in a future for literal Israel, most don"t.
30. Christ alone sits on the throne. Saints rule under Him.
Copied, author unknown
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KneelingB4Jesus
Wow! Your theology is a lot like mine, though I align closer to Reformed theology but solve the problem of cessationist by embracing Charismatic Calvinist hahaha
Blessings and keep us inform about your findings.
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Kneeling,
I thought this discussion had died but here we go. I love talking about the end times. I have to admit that the more I study the more I am accepting some of the covenant theology view. However, I still remain a dispensationalist since I believe in a future millennial reign of our Lord. Maybe that is because I am looking forward to better times. I grew up believing there was going to be a rapture, then a 7-year tribulation and then at the end of the tribulation Jesus returns to set up His millennial reign. The first thing that went was the pre-trib rapture idea. I just don't find that being supported in Scripture.
At this point I would have to say I agree a lot with covenant theology. I see more and more God's family as opposed to a physical nation and a spiritual church. I do believe Jesus will rule from Jerusalem but I am not absolutely sure that all or even most of those being ruled over are actual physical descendants of Jacob. I am beginning to see more and more as Jesus a fulfillment of much of prophecy concerning Israel. The seed of Abraham is Jesus Christ. (Gal. 3:16)
Now, the seed of Abraham is Jesus and those elected to be part of His family. This family includes both Jews and Gentiles. Has the physical nation of Israel served its purpose? Jesus revealed to us that His family included not just Jews but all those who would come to believe in Him including the remnant. If so, does the twelve tribes of Israel in Revelation refer to the physical Israel or does it refer to something more? What I am talking about does seem to be replacement theology which most do not believe is the case. It is just a phase as one works out his understanding of Scripture. Come back in a few years. I will have changed even more.
Here is a Scripture that comes to mind:
2 Co 1:18-21 But as surely as God is faithful, our message to you is not "Yes" and "No." 19 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by me and Silas and Timothy, was not "Yes" and "No," but in him it has always been "Yes." 20 For no matter how many promises God has made, they are "Yes" in Christ. And so through him the "Amen" is spoken by us to the glory of God. NIV
These words were spoken to a group of Gentile believers. I believe Paul to be saying that His promises are not yes to this one but no to that one because that one only pertained to the nation of Israel. All His promises pertain to us. It is much more fun to read Scripture and find yourself all the way through Scripture rather than just picking up 2,000 years ago. This Word is written to His people. We are very much a part of all He has purposed and promised. I hear Him saying that you were included in Him when you believed. That is very exciting.
This journey is very exciting. I have been both an Armenian and a Calvinist. I have been a pre-trib, mid-trib and now a post-tribber. Will I ever become a post-millenialist? I doubt it but this is a wonderful journey we are on. I do think we need to be open to others understanding of Scripture, that is those who believe Scripture has all truth that we are supposed to have in this life. We need to listen to what others have to say. There is so much information. I love His Word.
Kneeling, I see that you are also opening up to other understandings. This is good. All these ideas are within the scope of good fundamental Christianity.
Praise the Lord,
Roy
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Permalink Reply by JB on
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This journey is very exciting. I have been both an Armenian and a Calvinist. I have been a pre-trib, mid-trib and now a post-tribber. Will I ever become a post-millenialist? I doubt it but this is a wonderful journey we are on. I do think we need to be open to others understanding of Scripture, that is those who believe Scripture has all truth that we are supposed to have in this life. We need to listen to what others have to say. There is so much information. I love His Word.
I love the Word as well Roy, without it I don't know where I would be
Hey Roy!
Maybe this is one of the reasons we are not seeing the prayers answered as we think we should, when we vacillate in our beliefs and swayed in different directions by the slight of men and cunning craftiness, where by they lay in wait to deceive.
The Word calls this a wavering faith, so let not that man think he shall receive anything of the Lord. Ja.1:7,
Let it be known!!!
I am not exempt from the temptation to say, Well maybe it could be this way or that way; based on what so and so said, after all he is a preacher, professor, teacher or some other good old boy.
When I do that: I go back to my first love, the Word of God and see why I believed the way I did when I first heard it. Or try to find out why they believed the way they do.
I even used to think that a fetus wasn’t a life until it caught it’s first breath of air, But then I went to my first love again, and it changed my thinking, as the scripture says in 2Cor.3:18, we all with open face, beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into that same image, from glory to glory; even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
This is where I believe that it is so important for a teacher of the Word, learn from the Holy Spirit the truths of God’s Word, rather than from, conjecture and preconceived ideas, or a manmade curriculum that is to cover or reach across denominational lines.
All you will get is a generic intellectual, legalistic point of view.
I love These two scriptures, 1Jo.2:27, but the anointing that ye have received of Him abideth in you and ye not that any man teach you, but that same anointing that teacheth you all things and is truth and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you ye shall abide in Him. And also James 3, actually the whole chapter, but the first verse says “My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation” So I think that there is more of a responsibility being a teacher than some realize, and they will be held accountable for what we teach. I usually tell people, that if you don’t see it the way I do, rather than condemn me for it, just lay it upon a mental shelf, pray about it and let the Holy spirit teach you.
By the way I have been to a cemetery; but never to a seminary.
Maybe by my responses: some have already come to that conclusion. lol
I think I will quit for now, HaHa
Let God be true and every man a liar, Ro.3:4
Joe
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Joe,
I think it is called growing in the grace and knowledge of the Lord. Anyone that thinks they have it all figured out is living in a fantasy world full of ideas like the liberals thinking they can spend us out of debt. Those who have not grown in knowledge are stuck in a rut like those seeking a static connection rather that a dynamic one. The truth of Scripture never changes but our understanding grows thus the horizontal and vertical relationship. Our understanding of His Word dynamically grows thus the horizontal relationship. However, His Word remains constant and He will do all that He has promised thus the vertical and static constant.
Joe, you said this:
Maybe this is one of the reasons we are not seeing the prayers answered as we think we should, when we vacillate in our beliefs and swayed in different directions by the slight of men and cunning craftiness, where by they lay in wait to deceive.
This is called a priori knowledge or supposition. You reason that all should be healed based on your understanding of the Word. However, rather that growing and seeking to understand why all are not healed you defer that to man's failure and weakness. God miraculously heals but sometimes people die. As we grow in understanding we realize that our knowledge has little to do with God's healing power. One person is cured from his disease while another person with seemingly the same amount of faith dies from the same disease or cause.
The Scripture is very clear on why we sometimes don't get what we ask for - we ask amiss. When we ask amiss that is exactly what we get - a miss. However when we ask according to His will we are going to get what we ask for that is if we do not waver in our faith in God.
1 Jn 5:14-15
14 This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. 15 And if we know that he hears us — whatever we ask — we know that we have what we asked of him. NIV
No, I don't thing growing in our understanding of Scripture and therefore a lack of understanding has very much to do with not receiving answered prayers from God. That's like saying our children have to reach a certain age or understanding before we will answer their needs. They may from time to time ask us for things we cannot yet give them. They may not understand but if they believe in us enough they will trust us that we are doing what is best for them based on our advanced knowledge.
Anyway, Joe, that is my take on the matter.
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Kneeling,
I have belonged to many denominations over the years. I have found that all have part of the truth. It is not in the church to which we belong. It is how we are interpreting Scripture. It is impossible to study the Word and not be learning. The more we learn, we will notice that some of our views are changing. Our previous views came to us mostly from parents, churches, pastors or friends. Once we get into the Word for ourselves as you are doing, we begin to own our own views. It may very well be that our peers or superiors have greater understanding than we but that doesn't matter, we are now owning our individual views and our views will grow in grace and understanding. That is why I am saying that this journey is a very exciting one. No one has it all together. We should be learning until the day we pass to the next phases of our lives.
There are those who would resist us learning on our own as many of the pet doctrines they have become known to be not true or at the least very little Scriptural foundation. There are some basic tenets of the faith that we need to have. That is why an organization like AAG is so valuable. As we express our views (as we should) we will find if they hold water or not. If we are believing strongly in something that doesn't really hold true in Scripture, we need to be able to express that view and have that view debated. I think that is healthy Christianity and an excellent tool for growth. Yes, the discussion needs to be seasoned with grace but they also need to be real. For instance: I have been sharing with some who believe in a pre-trib rapture that I don't believe Scripture strongly supports that position. Some might have a problem with my saying that but I think the discussion is healthy. I have even heard people say in the past (not on here) that if someone did not believe in a pre-trib rapture that they weren't right with God even to the point of not being saved. That, of course, is ridiculous.
I appreciate your spirit. When I said wait around awhile, some of my thinking will change - that is a reference to "I'm still studying." If I don't learn something new over the next how ever many years I have left, then the journey to me will become more dull. His Word is so full of information. The believer should never stop learning. If we are at the point where all we want to do is to defend our positions, we have stopped growing. I am not afraid to put out there what I believe. If it is wrong, I want someone to knock it down. That is a method of growing. However, opinion can't knock our positions down. It must be the Word of God. I have become very Calvinistic in my thinking and you have stated that you have mostly left that position. I have seen some of your views and we are at differing places but we are both still growing. I guess it is really difficult to truly understand differing views unless you have been there. I have been just about everywhere in my understanding as I see posted on this site. However, I have never been an amillennialist or post millennialist. I am beginning to see, however, more and more how they got there. I guess I'm too much of a literalist to completely get there.
Growing in the knowledge of the Lord is very exciting. However, if we are not given an avenue to share that faith, it is less exciting. I am grateful that I do have that avenue to share these truths of Scripture almost every day.
I still think it is a privilege to share here on AAG. It is a safe place for us to share our views. If we get too far off, someone will check us and bring us back into line with Scripture. The Christian faith is very well established. There are some differing views within that faith but they basically all agree on the most fundamental principles of the faith. There are some that get outside of those basic boundaries. I think those will have a very difficult time on this site. This site is well founded upon Christian doctrine. Praise the Lord.
Roy
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Permalink Reply by The Shearer. on
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WOW ,this looks way too big a subject for my little mind and I would need to go back to school to learn all those big words ,so I go with just sticking with the bible .There is lots of people I know out there who really havnt the time to be rationalising back and forth with subjects like this when they could be actually reading Gods word when they can ,after all it is Gods word and not the discussions of mere men (do people really need to know all this to be saved ?) If I am missing the point please fill me in cause I will have to rethink how I get the message across to people. 2Tim 2:19KJV Nethertheless the foundation of God standeth sure,having this seal,the Lord knoweth them that are His , and let everyone that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 2 Timothy 3:16 NIV All scripture is God breathed and is useful for teaching ,correcting and training in righteousness. Colossians 2:8 KJV Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deciet,after the tradition of men,after the rudiments of the world and not after Christ. Rev 22:18 KJV For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophesy of this book ,if any man shall add unto these things ,God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book. I sure hope I get the message across the way I wanted too ,and that my simplistic view of things doesnt offend anyone,Gods speed in your learning ,brothers and sisters.....Andrew.
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