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Should women represent top-rank positions in churches?
Please respond to this in kindness. I'm obviously a woman and do not subscribe to chauvinistic ideology. However, I DO believe the Bible reveals a natural order that signifies God's original intention and purpose for His created.
Happy discussing! ;)
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by RoyW on
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Linda,
You are one of a kind but there needs to be more like you. I appreciate your convictions. I have been to a lot of church services lately and have never seen a woman wearing a head covering. However, I have seen plenty of guys wearing a ball cap in church.
However, I know there is no law other than to love Him and one another. If we don't love Him and His body, we are in the wrong place anyway.
God bless you,
Roy
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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on
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Family,
I don't think any of us could have answered the question any better. Dr. J. Vernon McGee has been among my favorite preachers for more than a decade. This short 6 minute vid had me crying.
Enjoy :)
McGee Q&A - Is it Wrong to Listen to a Woman Teach?
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Good old J Vernon McGee. David, my wife and I used to listed to him every morning. Like I said and now we hear him saying it, women are tough. They will do what man will not do. When men are running for the hills, you're liable to find some crazy woman out there staring the enemy in the face and conquering evil. I praise God for every woman out there fighting in the battle. There is a battle raging, especially here in America. We need to quit worrying about who the vessel is that is fighting by our side and refocus on the enemy.
Have you ever wondered why God gave the job to a woman to bear children? I can tell you that it is because they are tough. God is not punishing them, He just knows not to give that job to a man. Men, give it up. Admit we couldn't make it without the women. It is the job of the man to train and educate his children. Guess who I mostly deal with when I am discussing a child's training with the parent. Yep, it is almost always the mother. Where is the father? O, he is out there taking on the world in financial things so he can go out and buy more toys. Whoops! I better stop there.
Here's the deal. Sometimes children are difficult to handle. They have special problems or whatever. Again, the dad heads for the hills.
Ok, forgive me. I am exaggerating somewhat here. I do work with some of the best dads in the world. Usually, when it is a single parent looking for help with their child, it is usually the mother. However, there are exceptions to that. However, our nation is so full of deadbeat dads that if the mother doesn't do it, it is not going to get done.
Dads, this forum should make us take notice of ourselves. The training of our children is our responsibility. As head of the home, we are to give direction for the home. Mothers, when you have a husband taking the lead in your home, allow him to do that. However, if the man refuses to do his job, you have no choice but to do his responsibility. I do agree that sometimes women can become overbearing and need to step back. However, I don't believe that gives the dad an excuse for not doing his job.
The most important teaching job out there is a dad to his child. Men, let's get that job done. However, thank God that there are women that are not going to allow the unchurched or underparented child go without a teacher. I wonder how many there will be in heaven simply because a woman taught them about His love.
Roy
Great post, David. Here is one old boy that appreciates your hard work.
Roy
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Permalink Reply by The Shearer. on
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Hi there Ron ,just seen what you were saying about women being built tough to handle childbirth ,surely you know why childbirth is so tough on them .http://bible.cc/genesis/3-16.htm Hope this jogs your memory a bit ,you're doin a top job all the same,blessings from the lad down under.
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Permalink Reply by Pastor George McVey on
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Having posted on a couple of old post and not to restart an arguement here I just want to ask what do we make of the scripture where paul, the same one who gives the "rules" about women in church, states in Colossians 3:10&11 " and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him, 11 where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all."
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Hello George,
This was a great, long discussion. We touched on those verses. I will cut and paste my response to those verses here. Welcome to AAG. It's always great to have more impute.
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus," (Gal. 3:28).
Men are not better than women. We just have different God given responsabilities.
that verse should not be used though to back up women pastors. Since the verse says there is neither male nor female in Christ, then the offices of elder, bishop, pastor, etc. should not display gender differences -- since there is neither male nor female.
The problem with this interpretation is that the context of Galatians 3:28 is dealing with salvation, not church office qualifications. Contextually, Paul says in Galatians 3:24 that we are justified by faith and that we have been clothed with Christ (v. 27). In 3:29 he speaks about us belonging to Christ. So, there is nothing in the context to signify that women can be elders or pastors.
A closer look at Galatians 3:28 will reveal that Paul is showing there is no distinction between Jew and Greek. This is important because the Jewish people understood the Messiah was coming only for them (Matt. 15:24). Paul negates the distinction of nationality regarding salvation as he also negates the distinction of slave and free, male and female. He says, "you are all one in Christ Jesus."
Blessings
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I know you all wont mind me adding this to the pages here .Its been on my mind for a while ,but cause I dont like rushing into things I thought I would give a bit of time to see if I lost the urge to write ,but it is still as strong as ever so here I go.First I would just like to bring up 1Timothy 12 again ,and I will just put this link here so any new readers can get a grasp ....http://bible.cc/1_timothy/2-12.htm. I know the people who have put imput here know about this but I am taking a different angle at the moment .These words are written by Paul and are I think the last words written about the womans place in the church ,in the bible ,please correct me if I am wrong.At the least I know is that it was written after Jesus first started to teach His ministry so it should be relevant to us today .We should be all aware that through the Spirit and the Word, Paul would know of the earlier discussions brought up about this topic ,so for him to come up with this revelation ,are we to try and go back and try to confuse his words with earlier writings(similar to what the pharisees tried to do when they were plotting against Jesus) or take it that this is the stand that God wants us to take now. Now I will use a couple of examples why God would want some order to who has the authority to speak in the church ,we all now about what happened with Adam and Eve in the beginning when she was enticed by the serpent ,but I want to use the story of Abraham and Sarah as an example,here is another link for those who need to know more ..http://therefinersfire.org/ishmael_and_isaac.htm In this story we can see that Sarah had doubts about her ability to bare a child and because of this she took authority over Abraham by talking him into laying with Hagar .I know some will be thinking that this is a different situation of having doubts ,to wanting to spread the Word to others by preaching ,but is it really much different .When someone wants to give Glory to God ,should they not read and understand the Word to do so ,if a woman reads 1 Tim 2;12 and wants to preach ,is she giving God glory or seeking it for herself ,cause she either has doubts that a man can do a better job or she is letting pride and vanity overrun her faith? Going back to the outcome of Abraham and Sarah ,just think about how many christians would be in the world today if Sarah had kept her faith in God and waited upon Him ,how many women and children have suffered under Islam .(In a time when churches are struggling to stay together let alone agree with one another it is so important that we get our understanding of the Word right and knowing what the Spirit wants us to know,we must be willing to really examine ourselves closely to what the Bible says ,cause if we dont ,we are just giving the devil more opportunities to jump in and twist our thinking further).But really all the blame shouldnt go on Sarah cause Abraham should not have submitted to Sarahs pleadings and kept his faith more in God as well,little wonder why there should be some kind of order here and why it should'nt be taken lightly.I was reading recently a book about Charles Spurgeon ,an exemplary preacher .He recieved a lot of his instruction and learning from his aunt Anne ,who would probably of made a marvellous preacher herself ,but because of her faith to do what is right and the Baptist Church's firm standing back then about not letting women to preach she was happy to instruct Spurgeon in private(and Spurgeon wasnt a Baptist to begin with by the way) ,by humbling herself in this way I am sure that she could not have given God any better glory.I pray that these words do not offend any but only be some kind of enlightenment to any reading ,may the Spirit of God be with you all ....Andrew.
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I must apologise ,and retract one statement here ,about C.H.Spurgeons aunt Anne,although she did help with his learning also.The woman ,that I meant to refer to was in fact a cook at a school he attended ,her name was Mary Cooke,who was a devout christian and also a calvanist.Sorry for any confusion ....it wasnt intended...Andrew.
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Andrew (I think that is right)
I'm not going to jump into this discussion again. I got completely worn out the last time we got into this. I just wanted to say "hi" to you.
God bless you.
I think of you in that town in Australia.
Roy
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Andrew,
Is good to see you writing and doing some good research my brother. I think that the huge activity of woman in ministry we are seeing now in the world is due to men not living up to or not answering God's call to ministry. God will use those in the family who separate themselves from sin/worldly things, but whenever possible is best to stick to the biblical pattern.
Blessings
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Dave ,good to see you bro .In response to your reply,or should that be in reply to your response? .............. If the spirituality of any given church has decayed so much that there is no men in that church who feel strong enough to lead ,then wouldnt you agree that that church would seriously need to examine itself to how it is going about Gods business?......Before this discussion gets misinterpreted and starts to drag out,I would just ask if there is any part of my above addition to this blog,that you disagree with or do not understand,be it by its context or how I have put it together, please let me know as I am only giving my imput to help others grow and learn and that I may do the same for myself. Many blessings and much love to you Brother,and congratulions on your new placement here, I believe God has big things in store for your future...Andrew
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>>If the spirituality of any given church has decayed so much that there is no men in that church who feel strong enough to lead ,then wouldnt you agree that that church would seriously need to examine itself to how it is going about Gods business?......
hahaha for sure beloved, none the less the word must be preach...
Luke 19:37
When he came near the place where the road goes down the Mount of Olives, the whole crowd of disciples began joyfully to praise God in loud voices for all the miracles they had seen:
38 “Blessed is the king who comes in the name of the
Lord!”“Peace in heaven and glory in the highest!”
39 Some of the Pharisees in the crowd said to Jesus, “Teacher, rebuke your disciples!”
40 “I tell you,” he replied, “if they keep quiet, the stones will cry out.”
The woman of God, the most beautiful creation of God are most definitely much more than stones wouldn't you say beloved.
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