All About GOD - Growing Relationships with Jesus and Others
Are We Dispensationalists or covenant believers?
For those that are interested in an in depth discussion about dispensationalism and the couple other options out there, jump on in. I know Roy wanted to discuss it; I am just leaving it out in the open for others that want to join in and help us work this through.
For those that haven’t looked into this subject let me say it is a big subject. It deals with the overall theological grid we interpret scripture from. It is basically a system of hermeneutics (the system that helps us interpret scripture). I know of 3 main choices on the market and maybe 4.
1. Dispensationalism
2. Covenant theology
3. Progressive dispensationalism
4. (maybe) preterism- also called "realized eschatology" (not sure if this is in the same category, but as I read a bit on this it has a hermeneutic all to itself as does dispensationalism, so I think it is one of the "big systems" on the market for interpreting the old and new testament writings)
Dispensationalism is the system that has given rise to such doctrines as a 7 year tribulation, rebuilt temple, pre-trib (and any-trib) rapture. These I think are accepted by most people in my beloved Pentecostal family.Dispensationalism confused me because using dispensationalism hermeneutics, if done honestly and consistently, leads to some things that are clearly not normative. For example, if we hold to normative dispensationalism we must believe that the kingdom of God has not come in any form, even partially, at this point in history. We must believe that the new covenant has not begun and wont until the millennium in which it will be exclusively for Jews according to the flesh. Now I can’t imagine anyone saying the kingdom didn’t come at least in part with Jesus first coming and that the new covenant is not for the church, or even for this age!!!
Here I just want to start the ball rolling and from there we can jump into the details as they come up. I need your help; I am no expert in the subject. I expect new tangents to come up. Hope others will throw in their ideas on this, but if not I hope at least our discussion won’t be a nuisance. It will get a bit technical and so might bore many, feel free to ignore our posts on the subject!
Anyone out there interested here are some questions to jump-start things. Answer some of these questions from your perspective. You don’t have to do all of them, just pick one you think is important to you. Or just ask a new one and answer it!! Anything will do!!!
1. Why do you think this is an important subject? What issues are at stake when dealing with dispensationalism or other systems on the market?
2. Do we have to have a system, or can we "just stick with the bible”?
3. Can we just pick and choose from different systems and still be consistent?
4. Do you think dispensationalists or covenant theology is right? :)
Views: 513
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Rod Askew on
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Keep talking Roy,
There could be a telemovie deal in this for you.
Blessings
Rod
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Permalink Reply by RoyW on
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Well, if you want me to keep talking, did you know that time travel can be a method to explaining how our universe could be just a few thousand years old and yet we can see stars billions of light years away. The super novas we see today are exploding stars from millions and billions of light years away. How do we see them today? Well, that's another question for another forum but I must say that I am a literalist that believes God made the world and the universe in six literal days. For that to happen, something has to be outside of the realm of time and space.
I am really excited about this forum as it deals with covenants that God has had in place for eternity. Quite a plan.
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Amen Roy,
Quite a plan indeed.
I to believe in the literal 6 day creation.
Keep blessing us here
In His love
Rod
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Ginnybee,
Now, we are getting off of the subject. Time is real. God created time, space and matter. That is the dimension in which we live. God lives within and outside of that dimension. The scenes in Revelation are in what is called the 3rd heaven. It is a special place God created for us to live with Him. We don't know where that is but there is certainly a passageway for us to get there. Who knows, maybe it is on the other side of a black hole type of existence. Regardless of where or how it is there it is a wonderful place designed to give eternal bliss to those who become one of His.
My ticket paid for by Christ
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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on
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Roy,
A missionary pastor friend of mine asked me if I thought that God could change the future via email. Below is my answer to his question, which in a way has to do with your statement: "I believe in time travel."
It is hard to put in words concepts somewhat clear in my mind, but outside of what we finite beings are aware of and for which we lack scriptural reference. So I am venturing into describing the unknown. I do believe though that there are glimpses here and there in scripture of what i have come to grasp about the subject.
It is a biblical fact that God is not constraint by time. He created time and space and is outside of it. I do not mean all Historical events are happening now and forever will be playing out, but God is outside of time and how that affects his present, past and future, I do not know. He is called, I AM because of multiple reasons I suppose, not exclusively for one or two reasons. One being that He Is.
I believe God can change the future for our prayers are honored by Him when they align to His will. God is aware of what we need before we even ask, so I believe His response is already in conjunction or worked into the big picture, according to His perfect will and plan.
In other words to me God is not waiting on our responses. He knows the end from the begining and has already done what He would do. That does not take our bonafide ability to choose at all, but puts God's sovereignty and man's responsibility in accord. At least in my mind.
Yes, God can change the future, our future. He has no future, past or present as we know it, He is the great I AM. He is outside of time.
I supposed though that even eternity differentiates from past events present and future ones in a way unknown to us. In eternity there remains something happening now, something that happened and yet something to come. There is God's reality and His creation within constrains of time. How God views His creation being that He is outside of it, is territory I will not venture into as if there were verses to back it up.
So I do believe that eternity has a concept of past, present and future and that God ,has chosen to include us into His eternity and interact with us, however I am assuming that as God He can step back (and please don’t ask me to define “step back” haha) and view His creation from outside our known space and time.
Once upon a time hahahaha there was God and nothing else, at least that He has chosen to share with us. God created everything in 6 / 24 hour periods called days. What was before the Universe and what was God up to before the creation of the Universe we do not know. The fact is that He created the universe. Hence generating a beginning of time and space for His creation. He of course completely interacts with His creation since He is sovereign over it. However that does not negate the fact that there is an eternal reality before us and of which God has made us partakers of. To me God is outside of time and space as we know it for He is the one that created it, yet completely inter acting with His creation as much as abiding in them through the Holy Spirit.
If you created something you are outside of it and yet since you created it you can chose the degree of interaction to have with your creation. So God abides in His eternity which now we are partakers of as well, but as creator He can pulled back from his creation while still sustaining it in ways a creator can. How that pulling back to get a panoramic view per say affects His view of time, I have no I dea. So God can truly time travel in my view. :)
And maybe we will too in our glorify bodies, for now we can time travel through the pages and enlightment of the scriptures. Also God can take us as He took Phillip from one place to another (I am not 100% sure that is what the text is really saying but...), check it out:
Acts 839
When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord suddenly took Philip away, and the eunuch did not see him again, but went on his way rejoicing. 40 Philip, however, appeared at Azotus and traveled about, preaching the gospel in all the towns until he reached Caesarea.
Paul was taken up to the third heaven and he says that he does not know if he was in the body or outside the body.
A fellow mad man hahaha
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David,
I agree with you. It is impossible to believe God's Word without believing in a supernatural Being that is above and beyond space, time and matter. How could God show us something that was yet to happen in the future? How could prophecy work without a supernatural God? Yes, there was a battle in the Garden of Gethsemane the night of the crucifixion, but God had seen Christ's actions and words at least centuries before and undoubtedly knew of that event from all eternity. He knew the exact actions of the high priests, the Pharisees, the disciples, the fickle people, etc. He knows our actions before one of them comes to be. He chooses us based on His foreknowledge. He is before time and created time. I believe as you in the God that says, "Ex 20:11For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy." Why would we try to make the Word say anything less.
We serve a great big God. Our existence testifies to His being. Only a fool would say there is no God and I believe that only a fool would say, "His Word is not true." There is so much of it that I have to learn. I've read the posts and links put up by Yahway's and KneelingB4Jesus (I love these names) and enjoying it very much. I'm listening to the music on Yahway's page as I am writing as I write at 2AM. Someday, in the future, we will all be together in glory. I'm getting ready to finish up with Sproul's great teaching on covenant theology you posted. This is heaven here on earth.
The only madmen are the unbelievers. You are very sane. You are of the Truth and are free. David, do you have any power point teachings? I wonder if you were to put up a teaching if there are any graphic artists on this network that could illustrate in power point. I sense there is talent aboard this ship.
Roy -
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David,
You said: A missionary pastor friend of mine asked me if I thought that God could change the future via email.
What I want to know is, how does God change the future via email? I wasn't aware that He used email. If so, I would really like to get His email address.
Roy -
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hahaha
Good one Roy - My grammar stinks. You know what I mean, but thanks for the laugh.
Haven’t you seen that one movie where the actor, I think is Norman Freeman playing God, gives his power to a human to deal with His responsibilities (the guy that gets the responsibilities is Jim Carry. I think) and he gets like a couple of million emails (prayer request) every morning, but being that he is God, he finds a way to deal with them in a quickness. hahaha
You got me! hahaaha -
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Permalink Reply by Ginnybee on
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Roy
Agreed :-D Rereading what I wrote above reveals to me that I wasn't very clear about what I had in mind and that I should have given the question more thought before contributing, lol. I'm with you on your perspective, for sure. While I believe God gives time definition, I do not believe He IS time. What was I saying? hahaha. Oh well... I got over excited about the subject matter, I guess.
blessings,
Glenda
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Ginnybee,
You are correct. This one is certainly outside of our understanding. Eternity is just something He didn't give us the capacity to grasp.
Roy -
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God is stretching out the universe. This has the scientists baffled. They call their theory the Big Bang but have no idea how the Big Bang came to exist. They say that the universe began some 20 billion years ago as a point the size of a period on this page. All the matter and space was contained in that point. This would mean that mass was infinitely dense to begin with. The denser the mass the stronger the gravity. Gravity would also have been infinitely powerful. But something began to stretch space and matter. The evidence of the stretching is very apparent. They call this expansion "The Big Bang" but what caused this expansion? They are now calling this force that is defying the tremendous pull of gravity "dark matter." What is it?
Isa 44:24-25
24 "This is what the LORD says —
your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb:
I am the LORD,
who has made all things,
who alone stretched out the heavens,
who spread out the earth by myself,
25 who foils the signs of false prophets
and makes fools of diviners,
who overthrows the learning of the wise
and turns it into nonsense,
NIV
The force that is stretching the heavens, of course, is God. He is not ruled by the physical laws He created, He rules them. They are subject to Him and obeys His powerful voice.
Rejoice, for your God is great and He has you in His hand. He will never let you go for you are His. Your post shows your faith in Him. You do not put Him in a box as we have done in our scientific (actually, not very scientific) teachings. Our God is not subject to the heavens, He created them and speaks to them at His will. Of course, it was His will that we see into the heavens even though with known physical laws this is impossible. Actually, however, with Einstein's discovery of relativity, even time, space and matter can be begun to be understood a little better. God is all powerful and yet He loves us. What a wonderful God.
In Christ alone (I would take that name but someone already beat me to it).
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