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Are We Dispensationalists or covenant believers?
For those that are interested in an in depth discussion about dispensationalism and the couple other options out there, jump on in. I know Roy wanted to discuss it; I am just leaving it out in the open for others that want to join in and help us work this through.
For those that haven’t looked into this subject let me say it is a big subject. It deals with the overall theological grid we interpret scripture from. It is basically a system of hermeneutics (the system that helps us interpret scripture). I know of 3 main choices on the market and maybe 4.
1. Dispensationalism
2. Covenant theology
3. Progressive dispensationalism
4. (maybe) preterism- also called "realized eschatology" (not sure if this is in the same category, but as I read a bit on this it has a hermeneutic all to itself as does dispensationalism, so I think it is one of the "big systems" on the market for interpreting the old and new testament writings)
Dispensationalism is the system that has given rise to such doctrines as a 7 year tribulation, rebuilt temple, pre-trib (and any-trib) rapture. These I think are accepted by most people in my beloved Pentecostal family.Dispensationalism confused me because using dispensationalism hermeneutics, if done honestly and consistently, leads to some things that are clearly not normative. For example, if we hold to normative dispensationalism we must believe that the kingdom of God has not come in any form, even partially, at this point in history. We must believe that the new covenant has not begun and wont until the millennium in which it will be exclusively for Jews according to the flesh. Now I can’t imagine anyone saying the kingdom didn’t come at least in part with Jesus first coming and that the new covenant is not for the church, or even for this age!!!
Here I just want to start the ball rolling and from there we can jump into the details as they come up. I need your help; I am no expert in the subject. I expect new tangents to come up. Hope others will throw in their ideas on this, but if not I hope at least our discussion won’t be a nuisance. It will get a bit technical and so might bore many, feel free to ignore our posts on the subject!
Anyone out there interested here are some questions to jump-start things. Answer some of these questions from your perspective. You don’t have to do all of them, just pick one you think is important to you. Or just ask a new one and answer it!! Anything will do!!!
1. Why do you think this is an important subject? What issues are at stake when dealing with dispensationalism or other systems on the market?
2. Do we have to have a system, or can we "just stick with the bible”?
3. Can we just pick and choose from different systems and still be consistent?
4. Do you think dispensationalists or covenant theology is right? :)
Views: 513
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Rod Askew on
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Hebrews 13
7 Remember those who rule over you, who have spoken the word of God to you, whose faith follow, considering the outcome of their conduct. 8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. 9 Do not be carried about[c] with various and strange doctrines. For it is good that the heart be established by grace, not with foods which have not profited those who have been occupied with them.
Amen
In His love
Rod
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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on
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Thanks Rod,
I got this from your previous post. :)
From Wikipedia,
Dispensationalism is a Protestant evangelical tradition [1] based on a biblical hermeneutic that sees a series of chronologically successive "dispensations" or periods in history in which God relates to human beings in different ways under different Biblical covenants. As a system, dispensationalism is rooted in the writings of John Nelson Darby (1800 – 1882) and the Brethren Movement.[2]:10 The theology of dispensationalism consists of a distinctive eschatological "end times" perspective, as all dispensationalists hold to premillennialism and most hold to a pretribulation rapture. Dispensationalists believe that the nation of Israel is distinct from the Church,[3]:322 and that God has yet to fulfill His promises to national Israel. These promises include the land promises, which in the future result in a millennial kingdom where Christ, upon His return, will rule the world from Jerusalem[4] for a thousand years. In other areas of theology, dispensationalists hold to a wide range of beliefs within the evangelical and fundamentalist spectrum.[2]:
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KneelingB4Jesus,
Thank you for sharing the article with us. I am still digesting it. It is well written for those that hold to DT.
Blessings sis.
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Permalink Reply by RoyW on
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The 11th chapter of Romans deals with the nation of Israel. It appears to me that the nation of Israel is being set aside temporarily while God works with the Gentiles. We don't see a God that may be causing all this to happen but certainly knows what is going to happen. His promises to Abraham will be fulfilled. I am convinced that at the end of this church age so to speak the Bride will rule with Christ and there will continue to be a relationship with Israel. The church has a very special part in eternity. Whether it is superior or inferior to the nation of Israel is not the question. They are both a part of God's plan and share a common root.
Ro 11:28-36
28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. 32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
33 Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
How unsearchable his judgments,
and his paths beyond tracing out!
34 "Who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has been his counselor?"
35 "Who has ever given to God,
that God should repay him?"
36 For from him and through him and to him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.
NIV
God's plan and gifts are set and unchanging. What He has determined is exactly what will come to pass. We should never have a feeling of superiority as Paul is indicating in this discourse. We should feel humbled that we have even been included in God's plan (that comment is for Yahwey). It is exciting to know that we have been grafted into these promises God game to Abraham. All those promises are yes to us.
A Done Deal
Roy
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I love Sproul's conception that the covenant of grace is given to assure that the covenant of works have been completely fulfilled. Ultimately we are saved by works but not our works but His alone. We are completely unable to perform any task to make up for what was lost in the Garden. The covenant of grace assures God's original demand is kept. We are saved by grace through faith in Him and in Him alone. Hallelujah. Praise our wonderful Savior.
Hmm, pretty persuasive stuff here -
In Him
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hahaaha Hallelujah beloved. Amen and Amen!
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hahahaha - Join the club sis. Ohhhh my you gave me a good laugh cause i feel the same way. I can so relate.
Great help i am huh? hhaahaha :)
Blessings sis. It is possible up to a point.
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David,
I would have to say it would be okay to pick and choose depending how they line up with Scripture. I, like Yahwey, (boy I love that Name) am more of a literalist. If God says He created all matter in six days, I believe He did it in six days. I don't need to have someone explain to me why something as obvious as that needs to be explained away to mean billions of years. On the other hand, I don't think Jesus is a literal door.
For instance: when it comes to Israel, I think Israel and the church are now one. It is not as the church became Israel, it is just what God is doing now. He has invited the Jews to join Him in what He is doing but not expecting them to be the lead. He is finished with His initial purpose with the Jews. They gave the world Jesus. Now, since that job is accomplished, sometimes it seems they get in the way. Regardless, the Scripture is clear that there is no longer Jew or Gentile, there is now only the church.
In the future, Christ is going to rule and reign over the earth physically in Jerusalem (that is obviously not happening right now). I can't see how anyone would believe that is being fulfilled by any stretch of the imagination. There still appears to be prophecies concerning the nation of Israel that have not been fulfilled.
I'll just throw this out there. I guess this identifies me as a dispensationalist. I have a feeling, however, there is going to be some stuff that will identify me with the covenant theology folks. This is going to be fun. I will share something that is really crazy. I believe in traveling through time. I believe I have. Let me explain: there are many scenes in Revelation that show future events. I think these are real events that are really going to happen. When you talk about the saints surrounding the throne, that is a real event and I am there. Somehow God is able to see the future as it is happening now. It gets really exciting when you began to see yourself already there. Yep, there I am, already there. It's already happening. Talk about time travel - I go there quite often. I know God sees us eternally. Well, what does that make me? Crazy?
Already there,
Roy
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Permalink Reply by Ginnybee on
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Hey Roy! I find that SO interesting you say you believe in time travel, cuz I do also. It's not soundin' crazy to me, but then what that says about ME, um, well ?? haha. I think the future is happening as we speak.. time is eternal and simultaneous. Of course, just my opinion. I cannot confirm the belief to be absolutely true and would not hold firm to the idea if someone were able to convince me otherwise. I'm fairly open minded, I think, lol. But so far, it's what I happen to think. Anyway... interesting :D
Please continue discussion. I'm looking forward to learning more through this thread!
attentive,
Glenda
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