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Should women represent top-rank positions in churches?
Please respond to this in kindness. I'm obviously a woman and do not subscribe to chauvinistic ideology. However, I DO believe the Bible reveals a natural order that signifies God's original intention and purpose for His created.
Happy discussing! ;)
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on
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Hannah,
It is a beautiful thing to have a clean conscience before men and God. I understand perfectly where you are coming from whether you believe it or not. I am very aware how I maybe perceived by a sector of our family as well. For the most I ignore a bunch of stuff that could easily break the spirit of many and keep hoping God will give testimony in the hearts of my family.
Praise God - He has given me alligator skin, but I am not made of steel or of rock. I do cry and hurt. I do feel the rejection of some as I seek to love them with the truth.
Praise Be to God and His holy name. I will continue to do as my Lord commands and continue to learn to be more sensative to all the needs of the family. I am still learning.
God bless you sis. -
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Permalink Reply by Sharon Theresa Theil on
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Next, consider this...what is the single most important teaching of Christianity that separates it from all other religions? Surely it is the resurrection of Christ. Now look at who it was that first preached the resurrection after Christ had died & risen. It was Mary Magdalene and the other Mary who were instructed by the angel in the garden to "...go quickly and tell his disciples that he is risen..." (Matthew 28:7). We see also that after he had risen the first person he appeared to was not a man, but Mary Magdalene and she went & told his disciples, but they did not believe her (Mark 16:9-11). Ha then appeared to two disciples who were alking in the country who also testified to the resurrection and likewise were not believed. (Mark 16:12-13). Finally we see Jesus appearing to the eleven and what did he do? He did not applaud them but upbraided them because they did not believe the testimony of those who had seen him after he had risen, and the first of these was a woman.
Exactly!
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Permalink Reply by Theresa on
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Dear Glenda,
While I think there are so many godly smart women in this world who are leading good lives and raising beautiful families or even single and serving Jesus with all their hearts....My opinion and hopefully I am responding to this with kindness. I think women should not represent top-rank positions in churches, men should. God described women as the weaker vessel, maybe there is a reason why He said that and maybe it is time for us to take Him seriously and pray for more godly men to lead our churches, our homes and our nations.
Love you,
Theresa
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Permalink Reply by Ginnybee on
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I have an idea. Imagine that the bible, instead of instructing women disapprovingly to abstain from dialoguing in church, recognized the title of silence as the greater station regarding the church’s chain-of-command. Suppose that was done by magnifying the importance of women’s silence in church and downplaying the importance of men’s verbal participation in church. Would women feel any more satisfied with their God-given appointment, and would men aspire to the title of silence? If women felt enlarged instead of limited, would men’s and women's ambitions differ drastically? Simply curious
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Dear Glenda,
I think that women have more freedom today than ever to work and to live the way they want to. I believe that it is God's will for men and women to pray as well as to teach but when it comes to leadership, I do not believe women should be in position to lead over men in the church (my conviction). The reason why I say this is because of scientific facts: Women are led by their feelings and their emotions more than men, their hormones every month play a good role in how they think and act and if they do not renew their minds with the word of God then we are all in big trouble, lol. send them to the war to fight our enemies and they will win,
the best thing in all of this that men and women have one God, they can both pray in Jesus name and at the same time, they are both unique and different, God made them this way.
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Hi Theresa,
I totally agree with you :D
especially this point: "Women are led by their feelings and their emotions more than men, their hormones every month play a good role in how they think and act and if they do not renew their minds with the word of God then we are all in big trouble, lol."
Which is sorta what I was grasping at in an earlier reply to this thread. Women are more prone to letting emotions take control of their ideas concerning life and death than are men, naturally speaking, signifying our unique bond with nature, or the flesh, if you will. If let unleashed for too long, bad things will surface ;D We need Godly men in our lives for proper function! ..haha. Although I laugh, it's the truth.
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Thanks Glenda for your kind response. I want to say that we shall know the truth and the truth will set us free. Love you friend, our Lord Jesus blessed you :)
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Hello John,
Glad to hear we are of the same mind set. We are here to edify each other and not to offend. Praise God! However – the message of the cross is offensive in itself and foolishness to a dying world. The truth can also be offensive to those among the house hold of the Lord, since the truth exposes error, which makes for an uncomfortable atmosphere at times. Especially if the person one is having the exchange with does not have a teachable spirit, which is a must among those who truly seek the truth according to scripture.
>>I'd be interested in your opinions.
No problem! I enjoy sharing.
>>I know he was talking about other matters, but he was showing a principle that if someone/anyone is worshipping or doing something in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to Him, it is acceptable.
I do not fully agree with the above statement. We can be sincerely wrong and be offending God by a practice. Yet I do understand the principle Paul was teaching in context (as you stated) to the practices he was pointing to.
Ephesians 4
11It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
Wow!!!! 13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature. That is beautiful and worth seeking after. That is better than a so called unity in a lie or love founded in error. I am only speaking my heart here about the matter since you asked for my opinion and by no means do I think you approve of such negative things. More than anything I am disclosing my heart about your comments, without accusing you of anything. Ok – ok.
Paul said he counted it all rubbish in comparison to the Gospel. Right on Paul. The TRUTH IS BEAUTIFUL. IT HAS THE POWER TO SET US FREE. HALLELUJAH!!
>>First, arguments between people over topics like this do not promote peace, joy and the love of the brethren. Rather they often lead to disharmony and confusion.
Unfortunately your assessment is correct. Unfortunately because we should learn to discuss such issues in love. The motives behind what we do are extremely important. If we desire to prove that we are correct and our goal is to win arguments, then we have fallen into error. If our motives and desires are to edify one another than by all means do as the Lord leads. We see Jesus being perfectly balanced and able to exercise great compassion for some while still loving others by proclaiming the truth in a bit more direct manner. He knew the heart of men and acted accordingly. Through decerment and experience we can also discerned how to response to each individual in the body of Christ.
1 Corinthians 13
Love
1If I speak in the tongues[a] of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
Hebrews 12
14Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. 15See to it that no one misses the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to because trouble and defile many.
We make every effort to live in peace, but firmly understand that we are to:
7 Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father? 8If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and not true sons.
So correcting one another in love to come to the understanding of the truth is essential.
>>Second, if greater minds than ours over the decades have not found a resolution to this issue from the scriptures.
We are living in blessed times because we have all that information available to us and through prayer and abiding in the word we can now make well educated and God led decisions of what we should believe.
>>We need to ask whether it is important to know anyway? If the Lord has not made it clear, is it really relevant?
I believe as you do that the Lord is not the author of confusion and hence I believe that we can come to a full understanding of doctrine, realizing that we see in part now and that there are those issues that will baffle the mind. I however do not believe this one is among them.
>>Now I am not saying this as a cop-out, but as a means of putting this issue into proper perspective.
I respect your opinion and appreciate your desire for unity in the bond of peace and agree to it. We must realize however that God has gifted and equipped each member of the body for specific tasks. Always carrying such God given passions in love.
In other words I will not ask that you continue this discussion with me since you have disclosed your heart to me about the issue. I have a great God given passion to continue seeking understanding in such matters and teaching what I have been taught by the Spirit to be truth. Not ignoring that I am a fallible man and always opened to continual learning.
This is a secondary issues and an important one as all secondary issues are I will not divide due to differences in doctrine about it. These forums are designs to tackle all things pertaining to God and Godliness, so we are fine to discuss this and all other primary and/or secondary issues in an irenic fashion.
>>I believe that Satan has thrown this issue into the church for the express purpose of having Christians take their eyes off the "main game" which is to focus on Jesus Christ.
I believe this is just another issue that we as disciples of our Lord should seek out and practice what is pleasing to God. We are not ignorant of the devils tactics or where fights come from.
James 4
1 What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don't they come from your desires that battle within you? 2 You want something but don't get it. You kill and covet, but you cannot have what you want. You quarrel and fight. You do not have, because you do not ask God. 3 When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures.
So as we discuss any and all issues we should constantly examine our motives. Discussing and debating in love takes an enormous amount of Spiritual discernment and love as well as learned skill. Which is why many shy away from it. To me this community is a huge blessing and I see it as an extension to ministry.
INVESTING IN PEOPLE IS THE BEST INVESTMENT IN THE UNIVERSE, BUT IT IS TEDIOUS, JOYFUL WORK. We understand that people will come back and bite you and one must be ok with that since what we do, we do for the Glory of our Lord. We understand that some among us will not fully understand the zeal for purity in doctrine and might think that we are driven by a desire to win arguments, always be right etc…
I for one love the fact that my conscienceis clear before man and God that my desire is to bless God’s people with the truth.
Blessings beloved.
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Permalink Reply by John Lemmon on
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Hi David,
Always good to see your response & I know whatever is said it is said with love & a desire for what is right in the sight of God.
I really don’t want to say too much about this topic anymore for reasons previously set out and expanded on below. I hope though that we may understand each other better in the light of this discussion & what follows.
>>I know he was talking about other matters, but he was showing a principle that if someone/anyone is worshipping or doing something in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to Him, it is acceptable.
>I do not fully agree with the above statement. We can be sincerely wrong and be offending God by a practice. Yet I do understand the principle Paul was teaching in context (as you stated) to the practices he was pointing to.
It’s OK not to agree & I am not offended by it. I can & will listen to reason because through that method we can learn, & I’m always happy to admit when I am wrong. I have learned over many years to listen to what people say, weigh up against the scriptures & then accept the good & reject the bad. Where I have doubts about a matter I will study more deeply & commit the issue to the Lord in prayer.
In this case I was not suggesting a dishonourable or sinful practice would ever be acceptable even if it were supposedly a practice of worship. As an example, if someone were making money by sinful means & then offering it to God, would it be acceptable? No of course not, & indeed this principle was identified in the law (see Deut 23:18). However where there is no doctrinal precedence or scriptural basis to determine whether something is right or wrong, it becomes a little harder and we need the leading of the Holy Spirit to guide & counsel us. In the discussion on women in authority or in ministry there are many indications that it was acceptable and there are suggestions it was not. Will we (or anyone else) ever come to a landing on this? Probably not & thus I will not debate over the matter. There are some things that I will argue strongly about, but this is not one of them. I’ll hold on to what I believe until the Lord chooses to reveal to me otherwise as he has done with other matters in the past.
>Wow!!!! 13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature. That is beautiful and worth seeking after. That is better than a so called unity in a lie or love founded in error. I am only speaking my heart here about the matter since you asked for my opinion and by no means do I think you approve of such negative things.
I’m not sure what you are getting at here, but I do agree unity in the faith & in the knowledge of the Son of God to reach maturity is a truly desirable goal. In relation to the topic of this thread though, I’m not sure whether you consider women in ministry or authority to be critical to the faith (which is faith in the redemptive power of the death & resurrection of Jesus Christ) or the knowledge of the Son of God. I guess I come back to my original point of the last post that unity in the faith & in the knowledge of the Son of God is what is important and women in ministry is peripheral. But I may have misunderstood what you meant or your intent & if so I apologise for my lack of understanding.
>>First, arguments between people over topics like this do not promote peace, joy and the love of the brethren. Rather they often lead to disharmony and confusion.
>Unfortunately your assessment is correct. Unfortunately because we should learn to discuss such issues in love. The motives behind what we do are extremely important. If we desire to prove that we are correct and our goal is to win arguments, then we have fallen into error.
I couldn’t agree more. However when I was talking about “arguments between people” and so on, I wasn’t talking about you & I but in a general context. I think we have a different point of view on this matter (& there may be others too), but at the core your desire is the same as mine. To get to the truth, to learn what is important, to share what we have learned, seen & experienced in the Lord and to come into His Kingdom, and in sharing to do so in love & peace with one another. I don’t have to “win” an argument to prove myself to anybody & I perceive that you are of the same mind. In Christ it’s not about winning or losing but about being a family in God, and like any family, there will be disagreements! But when the chips are down or in our case the enemy attacks, families stick together & in our case support one another through sharing experiences, prayer & offering advice that has helped us in times of need. The key to Christianity is about relationships…firstly with God & Jesus Christ as our Lord & Saviour & then with our brothers & sisters.
I hope this is a how you see things too.
>I believe as you do that the Lord is not the author of confusion and hence I believe that we can come to a full understanding of doctrine, realizing that we see in part now and that there are those issues that will baffle the mind. I however do not believe this one is among them.
Similarly I don’t believe this issue is baffling either, I just see it a different way to yourself. Paul counselled us saying, “As for the man who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not for disputes over opinions.” (Rom 14:5) But who is weak in the faith in this matter? Is it you? Is it me? No…it is neither of us but rather those who have doubts about this issue because you and I are firmly convinced about our positions & can show it from scripture. Are you right & I wrong? Who knows but God alone! And as you pointed out in 1 Cor 13:12, “Now I know in part, then I shall understand fully, even as I have been fully understood.”
What are the issues that have you baffled? It is possible I may have a perspective that you have not yet come across that could shed some light.
>So as we discuss any and all issues we should constantly examine our motives. Discussing and debating in love takes an enormous amount of Spiritual discernment and love as well as learned skill. Which is why many shy away from it. To me this community is a huge blessing and I see it as an extension to ministry.
I am still new to the community here and have yet to fully learn both how I can best serve the brethren & how I can learn from them. I am sure it will become clearer as I continue to read & participate.
Self-examination is very important to ensure we are motivated by what is right. What we do we must do to the glory of God as I am sure you will agree. I perceive that in both our cases this has been our aim.
There is a fine line though in a discussion where it can turn from useful debate to futile argument, which fortunately in our case has not occurred. My point in relation to this topic, having put up my POV & the scriptures that support it, is that it is a controversial issue and there will always be differing points of view (in fact I think LT said much the same in an early post on this thread). Some will accept what I say, some will not. But because it is a controversial issue I am now (& should have been earlier) being guided by Paul when he instructed Timothy in 2 Tim 2:23 saying, “Have nothing to do with stupid, senseless controversies; you know that they breed quarrels.” Paul instructed Titus in a similar manner also saying, “But avoid stupid controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels over the law, for they are unprofitable and futile.” (Titus 3:9)
This matter is a controversy in the church and it will not lead a single person to salvation whichever way it is resolved. What it will do is to continue to promote quarrels & arguments that can have no resolution. To that end, I will not be part of it but seek to glorify the Lord instead rather than go down a path that is unprofitable & leads to futility.
I wish you all blessings in the Lord.
Your brother in Christ,
John
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Hey my brother from another mother,
It is all good my friend.
I was simply disclosing my heart to you, as I stated a couple of times up above. I hope you will be among us for a longgggg time, so I wanted you to know my heart a bit, because as we get to know each other’s heart and motives, misunderstandings should be eliminated greatly, since we will know each other a bit more.
Communicating through this means takes skills and one can easily be misunderstood, but again, it is my prayer and hopes that as we continue to chat we will continue to exercise charity above all else.
On page 5 you will find my personal convictions about this topic and you might see where my heart is a bit more. I have enjoyed our exchanges so far and look forward to many more.
Blessings to you my bro. You are a blessing. :)
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Permalink Reply by The Shearer. on
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