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Should women represent top-rank positions in churches?
Please respond to this in kindness. I'm obviously a woman and do not subscribe to chauvinistic ideology. However, I DO believe the Bible reveals a natural order that signifies God's original intention and purpose for His created.
Happy discussing! ;)
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on
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Linda Ruth,
The concept as presented to me is that the hand that took the fruit from the tree in the garden (Eve/woman) should not serve the cup (communion). This skin with writing on it is not Scripture, but a view into the past and reveals an early church POV regarding women in ministry and a reason why they should not be serving communion. This affects the concept of women as pastors and elders. There are many arguments that can be made at this point. One is that the man also ate of the fruit, but he was served by the woman. He should have said no or even stopped her, but didn't.
One animal skin with writing is not something to determine doctrine, but I thought it worth including as a food for thought.
Lord Bless,
LT
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Linda Ruth,
I am sure your family is glad that you were willing risking passing the bread at home. There might have been a revolt if you hadn't :-)
Lord Bless,
LT -
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Permalink Reply by Ginnybee on
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Linda,
I especially like the statement, "Although men and women are of equal worth, God has given them different roles to fulfill in the family and in the church. These roles are equally-important and complementary."
Complementary is key -
God created Adam (man) and breathed life into him. God removed a rib from Adam’s cavity and formed Eve (woman). Bear with me here. Now, man is missing an important element from what God originally considered to be a completed image of God. Notice, man exists through God's direct construction; although, woman exists as an offshoot of man, if you will please continue with me on this, lol. Therefore, man more closely relates, naturally, to God, whereas woman, through the process of formation loses a portion of relativity to God, making her more nature-bound than spiritual (aside from insertion of the Holy Spirit, of course). Now, in keeping with this line of thinking, we can see that man is missing an intentional component of God, thus creating a sense of lack or weakness. Man searches out a partner in effort to mend and fill that sense of lack. Woman on the other hand, exemplifies totally man’s missing component, which signifies she is a complete construct of nature; however, rarely understood by her, she does not represent the full scope of God's desired blueprint for human design. More closely resembling the forces of nature and not having had a piece removed from her, women feel more complete (even though they are not, in accordance to God), thus women portray as those who feel quite comfortable and even desire independence, and often view men as weak and needy, which sometimes leads women to seek power and authority over men. Here is the kicker, though--if you're not already swallowing hard cuz of what I'm relating, lol. - btw, I don't do what I just described women doing :-)
Ok, so.. this is a big and important test and lesson I believe women are to learn. We may be able to live comfortably independently (remember, yes, while women similarly tend to seek manly attention, it's often just that they seek, attention, for feeling powerful); however, to become more spiritual (closer to God, so to speak) it is good to seek counsel of a Godly man. Women should recognize their particular role as help-mate as an important indication of exact responsibility by God for women to decisively tackle humility willfully. For women, this issue is about being responsible (it’s a high honor to receive great responsibility, or purpose) and not about women being insignificant or of lesser aptitude.
IMO.. women should lift up Godly men with subservient admiration, not because women lack something and need a man to replace that lack. On the contrary, God extracted a piece of man to form woman. Therefore, women should appreciate man for his lack that women now have part in this world. As we, women, humble our selves willfully, and give glory to our men of God, we then also give of our selves. We give back to man, who gave of his self for our formation and purpose. In this way, men and women become equal partners and their roles complement each other, but it's up to us to accomplish God's plan, which always involves harmonious unity, complementation, and selfless love.
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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on
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There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus," (Gal. 3:28).
Men are not better than women. We just have different God given responsabilities.
that verse should not be used though to back up women pastors. Since the verse says there is neither male nor female in Christ, then the offices of elder, bishop, pastor, etc. should not display gender differences -- since there is neither male nor female.
The problem with this interpretation is that the context of Galatians 3:28 is dealing with salvation, not church office qualifications. Contextually, Paul says in Galatians 3:24 that we are justified by faith and that we have been clothed with Christ (v. 27). In 3:29 he speaks about us belonging to Christ. So, there is nothing in the context to signify that women can be elders or pastors.
A closer look at Galatians 3:28 will reveal that Paul is showing there is no distinction between Jew and Greek. This is important because the Jewish people understood the Messiah was coming only for them (Matt. 15:24). Paul negates the distinction of nationality regarding salvation as he also negates the distinction of slave and free, male and female. He says, "you are all one in Christ Jesus."
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I just want to say.. there was more to my philosophy, but didn't want to write a book, haha. But, maybe it be good to clear a couple things up where I may have mislead folks to think I believe something I don't ;-)
Dave,
Men are not better than women. We just have different God given responsabilities.
agreed..
The problem with this interpretation is that the context of Galatians 3:28 is dealing with salvation, not church office qualifications.
yes, and what I was trying to descifer above is what I believe to be the basic plan for our biological design, apart from man and woman's equality in Christ. As for each of our souls, we depict equality under God (we have an equal opportunity to save our souls through faith in Christ). So, human design in a sense is separate from the object of spirituality. We are all one in The Spirit, but in human form we have to put the pieces together to reflect God's perfect will for biological humanity, if that makes sense, lol.
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Hey my sis-
Just so you know. My response to your thoughts was not a response that endeavored on correcting or refuting you. The first para were my thoughts on your thoughts and the rest was just info dealing with the main topic. :)
Biological anthropology deals with anatomy and physiology and in its most basic forms deals with the human make up and the difference in the individual sexes. when we study this subjects we delight at our creator's perfection in creating an anatomy that compliments and aids the God given responsibilities each sex has been assigned, so I agree with you that though equal in value and dignity, there are differences in our physical makeup that complement our God given purposes. The manner in which our first parents (Adam and Eve) were created may also hold clues as to the overall plan, which is what i think your thoughts were driving us to ponder upon. Good stuff.Our challenge is to find contentment in God's designed, both spiritually and physically. To be comfortable, blessed and joyful to assume our God given protocol. :)
We are in agreement beloved. -
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Glenda,
Your philosophical explanation of the struggle for dominance between male and female is impressive and it may hold truth that is not clearly explained through the biblical text. Thank you for having the boldness to share it with us.
A man does not hold more dignity than a woman simply for being a man. He may be better than woman in some things that are dependant on abilities just as a woman may be better than a man in things she has been better equipped in. As far as either sex being better or greater in worth before the eyes of our Lord goes, that is not the case. Men and women are created equals in value and dignity. We are wired differently according to our God given responsibilities.
Once we learn what those God given responsibilities are then we find joy and fulfillment once we aligned to them.
Men have the same problem woman have of being submissive to God about what our God given responsibilities are. We struggle to live up to being the Spiritual leaders God calls us to be and at times even struggle with bowing to God. I remember coming before the Lord when I was just born again and asking God why He wanted all praise and Glory. That it appeared to me that He had an ego and pride problem. Why did I have to bow to Him etc...? I had a problem with being submissive to authorities, specially the abusive ones.
As a beautiful Father correcting His little kid, the Lord was very patient correcting my erroneous view of Him. After we talked, I ended up on my face bowing to Him, just proclaiming how worthy He is. Worthy to be praise.
We men however failed miserably at times at living up to our God given responsibilities and even abuse our leadership role to where we drive woman to rebel. Woman through the ages have love to live up to the responsibilities God has given her. Woman around the world love to be under the protection and provision a man is called to give. It has not been until recently that Satan has really bombarded the world's population of women (within the last 70 years) with a desire to break away from her God given role and designed. We men have obviously contributed to that sentiment.
As Christians though we are called to reestablish the rightful order of creation.
Neither men nor women can truly live up to their God given responsibilities without the enabling of the Holy Spirit. So let us abide in Christ, so His will will be done in this very important topic.
Blessings
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Boldness, hmm.. lol. thanks bro. 'twas my pleasure. I'll share more thoughts on this in a bit, hehe. Till then, God bless.
GB
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Dave,
A man does not hold more dignity than a woman simply for being a man. He may be better than woman in some things that are dependant on abilities just as a woman may be better than a man in things she has been better equipped in. As far as either sex being better or greater in worth before the eyes of our Lord goes, that is not the case. Men and women are created equals in value and dignity. We are wired differently according to our God given responsibilities.
Yes, we are valued equaly, absolutely! I was referencing human/natural instinct, or the instinctive ideas and sensations of man-kind when I talked about the division of the flesh - man/woman, and from what I've gathered over the years, it is the fleshy insticts of our current nature (those that don't line up with the plan) we should strive to overcome by way of The Spirit, and at the same time, through our ability to think and learn, we should consciously channel our impulses to reflect God's biological plan as best we can, because He didn't create humans on a whim.. He knew what He was doing and He does have a perfect plan for us. Therefore, is good to try understanding what that plan looks like. Yes?
I'll have to add more later.. got to run now.
GB
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Sorry it took me so long to get back here. I just wanted to add that I also agree with your statement - "We men however failed miserably at times at living up to our God given responsibilities and even abuse our leadership role to where we drive woman to rebel." Since I am a woman offering a woman's perspective, I refrained from attempting the man's. Thanks Dave ;)
Also, you said, "Woman through the ages have love to live up to the responsibilities God has given her. Woman around the world love to be under the protection and provision a man is called to give. It has not been until recently that Satan has really bombarded the world's population of women (within the last 70 years) with a desire to break away from her God given role and designed. We men have obviously contributed to that sentiment."
True, but turns out that many (not all) women enjoyed simply the provisions men provided them without crediting God for it. Eventually, in many cases, God was disregarded in the man/woman relationship and in their individual roles, altogether, which supported women's desire to "break away."
"As Christians though we are called to reestablish the rightful order of creation.
Neither men nor women can truly live up to their God given responsibilities without the enabling of the Holy Spirit. So let us abide in Christ, so His will will be done in this very important topic."
Good words, Dave!
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You are welcome sis, Praise God! :)
True, but turns out that many (not all) women enjoyed simply the provisions men provided them without crediting God for it.
this happens due to the lack of leadership from the husband. We are to be the priest of the home. Man we are the ones that should be calling the kids and wife to prayer and bible study, but the sad truth is that that is alien to most men... (I know guys, not all, but the unfortunate majority). -
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Permalink Reply by Rod Askew on
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G'day Glenda,
A very well thought out and I feel accurate assessment of how God intended our respective relations with each other to be.
The word humble can be a a bitter and difficult pill for modern women to swollow as the connotations are one of complete submission and "Man is boss"
Women's lib has gone a long way to dispel anything but equality of the sexes and even many Godly women of the church, such as female pastors and clergy now demand equality of position to the degree of being senior over the male elders.
Funnily the only body to have vigourously fought against this has been the Catholic church. ( not that I am siding with them) LOL
True equality in many instances has now been lost to equal opportunity which is not what God intended for us.
Equality of love to be one in Christ is different from equal opportunity in the workplace or church. It has become more of a competition between man and woman.
Men were to be the providers in not only food for the family, but also in their beliefs.
The man attended synagogue and came home to teach what he had learnt to the family.
The wife would then pass this teaching onto their children and her female servants etc.
Your final words above "but it's up to us to accomplish God's plan, which always involves harmonious unity, complementation, and selfless love."
are exactly right.
It is up to us to accept and adopt this way of life which may mean a complete rethink of how families, churchess and workplace relate to one another.
Very good post Glenda.
Blessings from Oz
Rod
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