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Do we Possess three entities namely a "Body" "Soul" and "Spirit"?
I need to hear from members on AAG, what they understand by the terms "Body" "Soul" and "Spirit" Let's look forward to a lively discussion as to your impression and beliefs on the subject.
"Do men and women possess three entities, namely a "Body" that possesses a "Soul" and a "Spirit"?
The Lord Bless all on AAG
Ron.
Views: 984
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on
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Tim,
Hell is not the Lake of Fire. This is a misconception by many. They are two separate places. Hell gave up the dead in order for them to stand before the white throne. It is here that they, death, and Hades are thrown into the Lake of Fire in Revelation 20. Regarding death being thrown into the Lake of Fire, see Revelation 6:8. Death and Hades placement in the place of eternal torment does nothing to take away from the conclusion of eternal torment for lost men. It simply supports it.
Regarding Lazarus you must look into the place called Sheol and what is understood about it. There are differing views on this as there are on many subjects. Let us look at one. Sheol is the place of the dead, both righteous and unrighteous before the resurrection. There are two compartments there and one is called paradise. When we see it in this light, we understand that the concept of going to the grave or pit simply means to one of the two parts of Sheol for the soul or to the physical grave for the flesh (See note below). Where did Jesus go to in order to lead a train of captives to heaven? Where did Jesus go when He died and His body was in the tomb for three days? Was it heaven or Sheol? If Sheol, does that mean he released the guilty or those who had believed in faith as outlined in Hebrews 11? This view also explains the reason why Lazarus, Abraham and the rich man could see each other and were conscious in Sheol. The rich man was awaiting the great white throne judgment while Lazarus and Abraham awaited Jesus death and resurrection to be led out of captivity (separation from God) and led into heaven. Lastly, existence without a body does not mean without form, at least as we understand it. In this existence as laid out by the account of the "Richman and Lazarus”, we see that they had consciousness, experienced feelings and emotions.
See Psalm 16:10-11; 49:14-15; 55:15 and Isaiah 14:9-11
There are many other verses in the OT, but some speak of the place for the flesh and others the place of the soul. Context distinguishes the difference.
Also, take a look at this link.
http://www.allaboutjesuschrist.org/jesus-in-hell-faq.htm
Food for thought.
LT
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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on
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Hello Sam,
I have enjoyed reading your comments here and there, is great to have you among us beloved. I see how easily one can conclude that Adam will now be a dead soul if we were to follow logical conclusions without spiritual enlightenment, but scripture supports that we past from life to conscious existence. I do not believe Adam to be a dead soul, he remains a living soul and even more alive than before, for he no longer sees as through a deem mirror, but he can see clearly now the rain is gone...
What dies is the body not the soul. Not one verse states in scripture that the soul will die at the time the body dies.
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Tim,
Throughout its history, the church has struggled with the concept of what is called the “intermediate state”—our position between the time we die and the time Christ consummates his kingdom and fulfills the promises that we confess in the Apostles’ Creed. We believe in the resurrection of the body. We believe there will be a time when God reunites our soul and our body, and that we will have a glorified body even as Christ came out of the tomb as the “firstborn from the dead.” In the meantime, what happens? The most common view has been that, at death, the soul immediately goes to be with God and there is a continuity of personal existence. There is no interruption of life at the end of this life, but we continue to be alive in our personal souls upon death.
There are those who have been influenced by a cultic view called psychopannychia, more famously known as soul sleep. The idea is that at death the soul goes into a state of suspended animation. It remains in slumber, in an unconscious state, until it is awakened at the time of the great resurrection. The soul is still alive, but it is unconscious, so that there is no consciousness of the passing of time. I think this conclusion is drawn improperly from the euphemistic way in which the New Testament speaks about people in death being asleep. The common Jewish expression that they are “asleep” means they are enjoying the reposed, peaceful tranquility of those who have passed beyond the struggles of this world and into the presence of God. But the overall teaching of Scripture, even in the Old Testament, where the bosom of Abraham was seen as the place of the afterlife, there is this persistent notion of continuity.
Paul put it this way: To live in this world is good; the greatest thing that can ever happen is to be participating in the final resurrection. But the intermediate state is even better. Paul said that he was caught between two things. On the one hand, his desire was to depart and be with Christ, which is far better, and on the other hand, he had a desire to remain alive and continue his ministry on this earth. But the apostle’s judgment that the passing beyond the veil of death to that intermediate state is far better than this one gives us a clue, along with a host of other passages. I know LT already touched on this, but I did not see you deal with it, unless I missed it.
You brought up this verse which you alluded to inappropriately. You were trying to use it to support your believe that the soul dies, but as we read immediately in the following verse is not referring to that at all, but instead informs us that at death of the body, we no longer have a portion of things done in this life, “under the sun.”
You have not respond to this either.
Ecclesiastes 9:5 (New International Version)
5 For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even the memory of them is forgotten
For the dead know nothing of what?
Of the affairs here on earth not that they are unconscious.
Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
2 Samuel 12:22-23 (New International Version)
22 He answered, "While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept. I thought, 'Who knows? The LORD may be gracious to me and let the child live.' 23 But now that he is dead, why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me."
Here David declares his confidence that “I shall go to him.” It is a thinly veiled reference to his hope of future reunion with his son. The discussion whether the soul dies or not has been settle for me by progressive revelation in the New Testament. What was not clearly perceived in the O.T. was made clear for us in the New.
Sam’s comment is a good one as I mentioned, but not an accurate one according to New Testament passages.
You say: “Sam makes the point that subsequent scriptures can't contradict what was previously written under God's inspiration and direction.”
Correct bro, we are in agreement. I am not saying they contradict, but that what was not clearly stated on the Old was made clear on the new. However those that hold to your belief ignore and excuse away such clarifications, not out of malice, but out of wrong indoctrination. I always enjoy your impute Tim and my tone as I write this is a loving one, but I can’t do no other than speak what I believe to be truth. This of course has nothing to do whether one is saved or not, so it falls in the category of secondary issues for me.
LT gave you a good explanation about the placement of the alleged discrepancy with the comma you alluded to when Jesus told the thief on the cross: “Jesus said to the thief on the cross, “I say to you, today you shall be with me in paradise.”
The image of the rich man and Lazarus in the New Testament (Luke 16:19-31) indicates to me that there is a continuity of life and of consciousness in that intermediate state.
Ezekiel 18:4 (New International Version)
4 For every living soul belongs to me, the father as well as the son—both alike belong to me. The soul who sins is the one who will die.
God played no favorites, but was fair in holding each individual accountable for his own sin. The death is PHYSICAL death which, for many, results in eternal death.
Grace and peace bro.
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hahaha good one! It is good to seek out the truth. Great work sista Linda.
God indeed gives us enlightenment when we seek Him with the right motives. A teachable spirit is a beautiful way to live life. Good article.
Tim -
You often impress me with your detail break downs and your desire to keep verses in context. I pray I have not been offensive to you in any way and sincerely hope you are willing to grow and revise your beliefs.
Please know that I always appreciate your willingness to have healthy discussions.
Your bro DV
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Permalink Reply by Sam on
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David,
Please bear with me for a moment.
It doesn't seem to me that the Old Testament is unclear at all. You mentioned three scriptures, and all seem to me to be perfectly in accord with what is stated at Genesis 2:7. I don't have a problem at all squaring those scriptures with Genesis. In fact, it seems to me that Ezekiel 18:4 and Ecclesiastes 9:5,6 reinforce the statement at Genesis 2:7.
Adam was created a soul, and he died. Ezekiel 18:4 states very clearly that souls die. Therefore, to me, to say that the soul is immortal would be a contradiction of Scripture, because something that dies cannot, by definition, be immortal.
King David's statement that he would be going to the place of his dead son could just as easily be read to mean that his son was dead, in sheol, hades, hell or whatever, and one day he would be there, too.
I'm not trying to be argumentative, so please don't read any such tone in my comments. I'm only trying to understand the Scriptures as accurately as I possibly can, without reading anything into it.
For example, let's go back to Ecclesiastes 9:5,6. The KJV states that the dead 'know not any thing'. Another translation says they 'know nothing', and another 'know nothing at all'.
If I make the statement that the dead no nothing on earth, I'm contradicting that statement. Otherwise, how could I say the dead no 'nothing' but really mean they know of everything, except what happens on earth? I can't, so Solomon's statement in verse 6 must therefore be understood to be complimentary rather than explanatory.
The problem we all face in studying the Bible is resisting the temptation to dismiss a scripture out of hand. "oh, that's just the Old Testament'. I'm not accusing you of this by any means, but people do it all the time. I can't help but think of Jesus' own reply to the Jews who were attempting to do the same, 'the Scripture cannot be broken' (John 10:35).
Sam
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Linda,
I agree with you and appreciate your comments. The reward for serving God has always been life. The penalty for sin has always been death. The 'reward' for sin has never been life.
Sam
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Dear Sam-
No problema bro. Bear with me as well. You or rather we are given the family a perfect example how we can have differences in doctrine using the same scriptures. I do not agree with your conclusions/interpretations of the verses. To believe what you believe you have to ignore the abundance of evidence in the New Testament to the continuity of the Spirit. You and Tim are ignoring dealing with those scriptures because it debunks your doctrinal stance. Again I do not believe you do this with malice, but simply erroneous interpretation and indoctrination.
I study with the Jehovah’s Witnesses for 3 years before becoming a Christian and was drilled to believe what you believe about soul sleep or its death. When I read the word asking God to lead me to all truth by the Spirit, I was able to see how wrong the teachings of the JW's are.
You are stuck in one verse or two and ignore all other verses shedding light to those two. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength...
You say: For example, let's go back to Ecclesiastes 9:5,6. The KJV states that the dead 'know not any thing'. Another translation says they 'know nothing', and another 'know nothing at all'. If I make the statement that the dead no nothing on earth, I'm contradicting that statement. Otherwise, how could I say the dead no 'nothing' but really mean they know of everything, except what happens on earth? I can't, so Solomon's statement in verse 6 must therefore be understood to be complimentary rather than explanatory.
Salomon's statement must be complementary rather than explanatory, huh? According to whom, to what theologian, according to what hermeneutical rule? What? Is that how we interpret the rest of the bible? The truth is that verse 6 is both complementary and explanatory. It is completely acceptable to say a person knows nothing about something and is very aware of other things. It is everyday language, no problem at all. I know nothing of life in outer space, but know a bit about life on earth. What do you think under the sun is place there for? To complement what?
Sam explain to me what the New Testament verses that shed light to this discussion mean and answered me this please, has the Holy Spirit guided you to what you believe to be truth about this topic or indoctrination?
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David,
I appreciate your response, you've given me much to think about.
I haven't (intentionally) ignored any scriptures from the New or Old Testament, I was only commenting on scriptures that had previously been cited over the course of this discussion. It wasn't my goal to introduce new verses for consideration, which is why I didn't. So, it's not that I am 'stuck' on one or two scriptures by any means. I love to talk about God's Word, and would be happy to discuss any scripture that is brought up.
But before we move on to whatever other scriptures you'd like to discuss, I want to make sure that I correctly understand your understanding of Ecclesiastes 9:5,6. I'm not trying to nitpick or find fault, I just want to make sure that I know where you stand on that scripture.
You stated earlier: For the dead know nothing of what?
Of the affairs here on earth not that they are unconscious.
What exactly did you mean by that?
What I think you're saying by that is the body dies and the soul or spirit moves on and is conscious but unaware of the things that take place here on earth.
Is that accurate?
Please clarify.
Sam
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Sam,
You got it my bro. That is exactly what I am saying. Thank you for being such a sport or rather mature in these matters. As I reread what I wrote to you earlier I see that it had potential for wrong understanding, but it is great to see you respond in such a peaceful/spiritual manner. For that bro - Thanks. The Lord bless you.
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David,
Don't mention it. I'd be a hypocrite if I rushed to judge. I know personally how tricky of an art it is to express oneself on the internet without causing some sort of misunderstanding. Thanks for clarifying your thoughts on the scripture in question. I wanted to make sure I understood your viewpoint fully, rather than assume.
You asked me earlier what I thought the Bible writer meant by the expression 'under the sun'. It seems to me that Solomon was being inspired to write about the condition of man on the Earth, of how life is from a strictly human perspective. What is a beneficial endeavor? What is vanity? Solomon had seen and done it all, to the extreme, and thus was in a unique position to be used by God to write about it.
How does that expression apply to the question at hand? It is true, the dead have no portion in what goes on 'under the sun', that is, in this life. What the dead person cannot do isn't the question. The question is why.
Based solely on verses 5 & 6, I can see why you have reached the conclusion you have. But there are nagging questions. The verse doesn't say that their love, hate and envy have passed from this life to the next, as would be the case if we were aware, conscious, in the spirit world but unable to affect that which happens 'under the sun'. It says they have 'perished'. They are no more.
Then I read verse 10, which states according to the KJV: “Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.” Do you see the point? How powerful the statement 'there is no'. It isn't that the dead have the things listed by the Bible writer and yet are unaware of what happens on earth or are unable to exert an influence on those things, it is that in the grave, in sheol, those things do not exist. -
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Sam -
You said:
Based solely on verses 5 & 6, I can see why you have reached the conclusion you have. But there are nagging questions. The verse doesn't say that their love, hate and envy have passed from this life to the next, as would be the case if we were aware, conscious, in the spirit world but unable to affect that which happens 'under the sun'. It says they have 'perished'. They are no more
The nagging questions are only created when we desire to established the annihilation of the soul, other than that the verse is completely in accord with the rest of the scriptures backing up continuity of the soul. The verse doesn't say that their love, hate and envy have passed from this life to the next, Correct! Should it, why would Love for the world, hate and envy go on to the next episode of conscious living? Those are worldly emotions which die with the flesh. Whether someone can feel hate, envy and love for the world in hell, I will not argue, for I have to say that as far as I recall, I have not encounter verses referring to that in Scripture, but they will certainly not be found in paradise/Abraham's bosom. There will be no crying there, hate, envy or love for the world. The absence of evidence is not evidence itself, in reference to Eccl. 9:5-6. The fact that the writer is quite about what does go on does not mean that nothing goes on existing in consciousness.
What has perished? The love for the world, hate and envy. Huh? Very interesting things indeed that have perish. Things that would not inherit the kingdom of God. As you have asked me to do, I will keep to these two verses alone and I see no reason to believe that the soul does not go on.
If I then think about the abundance of other scriptures supporting the continuity of the soul then the argument of soul sleep is destroyed.
Then I read verse 10, which states according to the KJV: “Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.”
Exactly the whole chapter, matter of fact the book is talking about doing all you can before you die, because we only get one turn on Earth. We only go around once on earth. There is no such thing as reincarnation, so do all you want to do now. That is a simple and logical conclusion without breaking a sweat.
DV -
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Tim,
To your question as to why: MT 22:32 `I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob' ? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."
I find it interesting that you build so much of your theology around the word "became." God created life. The question is not whether God created Adam, but what happens to man when he dies. Does he fall asleep or does he continue on in a conscious state. The account of the richman and Lazarus clearly teaches that there is conscious existence once one dies in the flesh. This is before Jesus was resurrected thus the location must be Sheol and heaven is not a part of this account. You ask us to explain the word, a single word, "became" which simply implies that Adam became alive in the flesh that God breathed into. You have to be able to dismiss this vivid account found in the gospel of Luke presented by Jesus Himself. You have to dismiss the souls under the altar in Revelations and address my comment earlier to you regarding the whites robes and what they mean and the fact that people on the earth were still dying, thus you must put it in the proper timeline..
If the soul sleeps why is Abraham, Lazarus and the richman alive, conscious and interacting prior to the resurrection?
Regarding the JWs. Do we respect their dedication? Suicide bombers are dedicated, that does not make the right. Are we impressed by the numbers? Many false religions have millions of people in their folds, that does not make them right. What I care about is what do they believe about Jesus. Do you know what they believe about Jesus, or Michael, or Satan? Do you know what they believe about the Trinity, the Holy Spirit and salvation?
N.T. evidence:
Richman and Lazarus.
Paul's clear statemet regarding being away from the body is to be with the Lord.
Souls under the altar.
LT
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