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God and Suicide?
I was reading something about a week ago concerning God and suicide. How can someone ask God to forgive them before they commit suicide? It just doesn't seem like something God can do, because life itselfis a Blessing, so for one to take into themselves to end this seems as though it would be an abomination before God. Anyone got any ideas and closure on this subject?
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Rachel on
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It is hard for me to understand that someone that commits suicide will be in paradise with God. We all must face judgement individually, concerning all of our good and sinful acts. No one has a right to take themselves nor another human beings life. Life is a gift from God. We have no right, although there is free choice, to alter or destroy what God has provided.. To each his own.
Rachel
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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on
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Rachel -
You are correct, is not right for a human to take their own life, no doubt about that, but sis, i think you may be mixing up the Judgement seat of Christ with the White throne judgement.
2 Cor. 5
10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.
The "all" in this verse is not referring to unrepentant folks. This verse is referring to Christians who will go before Christ to get rewards for the things they did to bring God glory while alive.
We will not be in the judgement described below:
Revelation 20:11-13 (New International Version)
The Dead Are Judged
11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.
A Christian that took His own live has sin and broken many hearts, but I can bet that almost everyone that dies (being a Christian) probably dies without asking for forgiveness of some sin or sins they recently committed before dying. But sis this is not something I argue fiercely.
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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on
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Hey Rachel,
There are several questions that must be answered in context of your concerns:
What is salvation?
What are the requirements to gain it and to keep it?
What changes take place in us by the power of the Holy Spirit because of Christ's work at salvation?
What are the requirements to gain it and to keep it?
What are some of the eternal unconditional promises to the new-born believer?
Is suicide a work of the flesh?
How do works of the flesh affect it?
Can it be lost?
The Biblical answer to these questions open our eyes to a surety in Christ that we as believers have. If you would like to seek to respond to those questions I think you will find it enlightening and beneficial. If you would rather not respond to the specific questions let me know and i will address them.
Lord Bless,
LT
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Ginny, sorry for the delay I forgot to post this Sunday evening :-)
I understand the context of Ephesians, but the sin of holding on to anger is marked as sin, just as murder is sin, just as suicide is sin. If we are told to not hold on to our anger,
Ephesians is recognizing that we are to not sin in our anger and talks about putting it off before the sun goes down. Therefore, the anger may or may not have led to sin, but either way we need to let it go and get over it for it hinders us primarily because anger can control us when left unchecked and allowed to grow in us. The passage talks about other sins and goes on to tell us to not grieve the Holy Spirit with whom we are sealed for the day of redemption. Regarding salvation I do not see a clock that applies to us that if we do not repent in said time we are lost. For the believer who sins there is divine discipline in this life, but no condemnation (Heb. 12 and Rom. 8:1). For the believer repentance unto salvation is eternal.
then we can assume also that holding on to depressive thoughts of any kind is sin.
The problem here is that there are negative thoughts that we can take captive and should dispense of, but there are also people who love Jesus that are trapped in depression and it is not as simple as just tossing them off. My mom, who is now home with the Lord, dealt with major mental issues toward the end of her life (last 8 years) and required being institutionalized on three occasions. She required medication in order to live a life resembling normal. She could not control what was happening. For different people their mental state is affected by their circumstances and thus their thought process of right and wrong are affected. They cannot help themselves, and lose touch with reality. Keep in mind I am not advocating a victim mentality here. There are some that cannot help themselves.
I notice too that this topic leads us into the area of whether we believe in once saved always saved, so I'm going to explain my current perspective on that issue. I do believe in that once we become saved we continue to be saved; however, not to the point of suicide. Here is why. With regard to all other sins, besides that of suicide, we continue to walk in the Spirit, or we continue to live, which affords us the opportunity to gain a sense of sorrow for our transgressions. But if we no longer live, we cannot be moved into that state of regret. Our decision for death over life is final. Now, see that I'm not referring to the physical state of repentance where we begin to outwardly confess and change our methods. Rather, I'm pointing to the abstract state of mind, where we simply claim the guilt, which the Holy Spirit brings upon us after we have sinned. It has been my understanding that it's the conviction felt after we sin that marks the difference. Considering all other sins (besides suicide), we can hold confident in the fact that the Holy Spirit will bring us out of the wilderness, so to speak, by filling us with regret. But if the sin is suicide, we terminate the Holy Spirit's ability to respond to our senses; thus, we never accept the shame the Spirit would naturally bring upon us. It represents a definite finalization of our thoughts and emotions.
With the method you have presented above you are actually (please bear with me) presenting one can lose their salvation for any sin. For if they do not repent when convicted, or repent in a timely manner and die they would be lost. The understanding of the purpose of repentance will help and we will get to that in a minute.
The concept of walking in the Spirit relates to being in alignment with God. This deals with God blessing us and using us in this life. Regarding salvation we have already been spiritually changed and set apart, if we are saved, and nothing can change that eternal relationship.
The time frame I imagine is our allotted window of opportunity to set the record straight according to our senses, not particularly by our reversed actions. As I believe we assume all the time in the world to clean up our act, literally, as long as our senses are appropriately positioned, meaning, we feel the pressing conviction of our misdeeds.
Your eternal record is set straight at salvation. The sin that would separate you from God is fully forgiven and you become a child of God. Do you believe that the moment a life ceases that the person is either separated from the Lord eternally (except for the judgment seat) or brought into His presence eternally? Do we continue on as a conscious being? Do you suppose that the person who is saved and committed suicide would recognize the error of their action the moment their physical life ceases? Remembering that repentance is agreeing with God, not just guilt or changing the direction of one’s life. Repentance involves a change of mind. Do we suppose that the newly released from the sinful flesh would agree with God instantaneously that their action was wrong, but at the same time are covered? Can we trust in the word of Romans 8:1? If it is about time to clean up our act we are returning to a works based theology. Did Jesus wait until we were good enough to save us (Rom. 5:8-19)?
Now, you did state something here that really grabbed me. You suggested there are two types of repentance. I never heard that before. A repentance for salvation--our initial repentance--and a different kind of repentance--a way of the current believer. How is there a difference? Does the bible declare a distinction between the two? I'm very interested in this, because it's new information for me :)
There are two types of repentance that relate to our conversation. The unbeliever who becomes convicted of sin and convinced of the truth of God’s Word and the reality of Jesus and His sacrifice have experienced a change in mind that reveals all this to them. It is conviction that leads to salvation. For the born-again believer this form of repentance is employed only once. Once saved I am not being convinced of who Jesus is all over again and seeking to be resaved, unless one believes they can lose their salvation. If they could lose it they would be lost forever because there is no sacrifice left for them as the Book of Hebrews tells us. The believer, therefore, is not lost but tainted. They require cleansing in order that they may be usable in the hand of God. Our repentance is acknowledging our guilt and seeking restoration for usability, not restoration unto salvation. The best example of this is found in John 13. Here we find Jesus washing His disciple’s feet. Peter objects. Finally after Jesus tells Him that unless I wash you will have no part with. Peter then asks to not just have his hands washed, but his head as well. Jesus responds that one who has taken a bath needs only his feet washed because his whole body is clean. Understanding the culture will bring light to this passage. In towns of that era you would find a bath house located within the city. People would travel to the bath house and take a bath. After bathing they would journey home down the dusty streets. Upon arriving home they do not need another bath, but only their feet washed. We, as believers, do not ever need another bath. Once we have been saved we travel through this world that is contaminated with sin. We only need our feet washed and the beauty of this account with Jesus is that He is illustrating that He is even the one that cleanses us by washing our feet. In other words He is the one who keeps us clean. Our repentance as a believer is likened to having our feet washed, not taking a full bath again. For the believer that strays God will employ divine discipline, but never speaks of that believer losing their family name, His family name. Even the prodigal son illustrates that the Father never stopped caring for his son and never disowned him. Just the opposite is seen in the story.
Both the saved and unsaved ask for forgiveness of sin but with different outcomes in mind. One is unto salvation and one is unto restoration (usability).
Lastly, regarding time given to ponder suicide before the actual event occurs. The time frame from my view is not relevant as it is all part of one act. One must ask them self do we think that a rational person operating in a clear mind would plan and execute suicide? Is there not something amiss if one takes their own life when we recognize the strong desire of humanity to survive?
Please feel free to inquire further.
Lord Bless,
LT
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Permalink Reply by Ginnybee on
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Hello LT :)
Ok…
First and foremost, I want to say that I’m deeply regretful upon recognizing your mom, your self, and family experienced such difficulties. I’m sure it was a tough time. You have my warmest regards.
She required medication in order to live a life resembling normal. She could not control what was happening. For different people their mental state is affected by their circumstances and thus their thought process of right and wrong are affected. They cannot help themselves, and lose touch with reality.
This might present an entirely new area for me to explore, because I have not yet come into a full understanding about how the human mind connects with the soul’s redemptive state. Plus, I now feel reluctant to question you about this. I don’t want to overstep a sensitive edge.
With the method you have presented above you are actually (please bear with me) presenting one can lose their salvation for any sin.
Not exactly. Allow me to try explaining better. My idea is that if we are saved, God stands totally committed to our salvation. Meaning, He will bring us back into agreement with Him before death can transpire by imparting spiritual conviction. So, I’m claiming something similar as you, that salvation is not based on our own actions, but rather, it’s based on the will and action of God. In the case of suicide, however, we terminate God’s will to save. We decide to inaugurate the will of our flesh, placing a final seal of death on our soul. With final ultimatum in play, we deny Christ a right to our self. Moreover, it has been my belief that the one unforgivable sin is that of denying Christ as our savior.
With the method you have presented above you are actually (please bear with me) presenting one can lose their salvation for any sin. For if they do not repent when convicted, or repent in a timely manner and die they would be lost.
Again, not exactly. It’s not our own act of repentance that I’m pointing to, but the action of God to execute our divine conviction. We deny His will to convict us and lead us back into agreement with His perfect purpose.
The concept of walking in the Spirit relates to being in alignment with God.
That’s what I’m talking about. It’s this being in alignment (agreement) with God that determines our salvation--Alignment, meaning remaining spiritually aware of what is right and what is wrong, and agreeing with God on the matter. Also, a saved person comprises a fear of God, which signifies, by my understanding, the heart-felt conviction and upset at the thought of falling out of eternal relation with Him.
The concept of walking in the Spirit relates to being in alignment with God. This deals with God blessing us and using us in this life. Regarding salvation we have already been spiritually changed and set apart, if we are saved, and nothing can change that eternal relationship.
Ok, but seeing as though we are spiritually changed and set apart, doesn’t that reality fall under the order of needing to remain in a state of mind that reflects that position?
Your eternal record is set straight at salvation. The sin that would separate you from God is fully forgiven and you become a child of God. (agreed, up unto the point of denying Christ entitlement over us in a final act of self murder)
Do you believe that the moment a life ceases that the person is either separated from the Lord eternally (except for the judgment seat) or brought into His presence eternally? (yes)
Do we continue on as a conscious being? (yes)
Do you suppose that the person who is saved and committed suicide would recognize the error of their action the moment their physical life ceases? (this is where it becomes a bit tricky. Yes, I believe so, but our opportunity (key word is opportunity) to repent is lost after death. Therefore, it doesn’t really make a difference whether the person recognizes the error after his/her physical life ceases)
Remembering that repentance is agreeing with God, not just guilt or changing the direction of one’s life. Repentance involves a change of mind. (Exactly the point I’m making)
Do we suppose that the newly released from the sinful flesh would agree with God instantaneously that their action was wrong, but at the same time are covered? (Not exactly. The transitioned soul might agree, yes, but I’m not convinced that that instantaneous agreement (after the transition from physical life to death) signifies a cover)
Can we trust in the word of Romans 8:1? If it is about time to clean up our act we are returning to a works based theology. Did Jesus wait until we were good enough to save us (Rom. 5:8-19)? (No, but I’m not suggesting we need to remain sinless…only that we continue in a state of mind that accepts Christ as Savior)
Your explanation dealing with the washing of feet makes perfect sense, and I thank you for that. I agree, totally. Still, my contention is with what happens to the soul of one that ends their own life, and ultimately ends the right of Christ to prevail over him/her—taking away from Christ the privilege to wash his/her own feet. It is in this only instance that I question whether a person can truly be saved. In every other situation, as long as a person is certainly born-again through Christ Jesus, he/she can not fall out of salvation, because the Holy Spirit assumes a commitment to draw that person back into agreement, and no matter how long the process might take, we know the Holy Spirit will prevail.
Next, I understand your explanation of the two types of repentance; I’m just not sure I completely agree just yet, lol. Sorry--I’m being difficult, I know. But I kind of rather see the two types as one in the same. When we repent originally, we become saved. Similarly, our continued approach toward repentance is what separates us from the rest of secular society in that it exemplifies our state of salvation. Without it, who is to prove we are truly saved?
Is there not something amiss if one takes their own life when we recognize the strong desire of humanity to survive? (Exactly...good question--One I continue asking)
I will continue to ponder all that you have shared here, as I hope to establish a personal conclusion ;)
Thank you again for taking the time to walk me through this, LT :)
Blessings,
Glenda
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Permalink Reply by mr chulu lukwesa on
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in a situation of a SUICIDE BOMBER DOES THIS PEOPLE GO TO HEAVEN AND MEET THE SO CALLED VIRGINS,I DO THINK IT IS WORTH FOR GOD TO FORGIVE WHEN YOU ARE KILLING YOURSELF ESPECIALLY A BORN AGAIN CHRISTIAN.
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Permalink Reply by GAD_578 on
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Not possible to ask for forgiveness with intentions of comitting the very transgression.
But final judgment happens at the End of the Lord's day! There are first fruits at the beginning of the Lord's day. Those first fruits are priests during the Lord's day and have taken part in the first resurrection. tHose who did not take part in the first resurrection will either take part in the 2nd death or the second resurrection at the end of the Lord's day. This is why we are not to condemn antone as to say they have no hope of salvation that is the opposite of our duties.
Suicide is a disreguard for life thus is an embrace of the devil by his very root. Heb.2:14 calls the devil death. ^1
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Well that is a good question...I think that whatever is in their mind is not of God.You have to remember that commiting succide is murder.Look at what Romans 8 :5-8. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh,but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.For to be carnally minded is death,but to be spirtually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God,nor indeed can be.So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.I hope this answers your question.May God bless you with wisdom to understand this question my friend..In Jesus Name Amen.
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Permalink Reply by Carla on
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Hi Rachel,
A couple of things come to mind regarding this.. I believe that you are just desiring to have some closure and peace regarding this particular issue.
First of all.. we are not to judge.. (Romans chapter 2) We do not know if someone is saved or a true believer, only God knows that. Jesus will separate the wheat and the tares when the time has come. (Matthew 13:24-30)
Secondly.. We are neither saved nor condemned by our works... We are saved by faith.
1 Corinthians 3:15... Even though this verse is not describing suicide...(The context here is that Paul is condemning division in the church, the foundation of the church must be built on Jesus Christ.. sound doctrine and right living..meeting God's standards), this verse demonstrates that all believers will be saved(Bema Judgement) (Romans 14:10-12)...We will be judged by our works (2 Corinthians 5:10)... We should look at the judgement as God rewarding us for the work we have done...not condemning us (Romans 8:1).
1Cr 3:13 But there is going to come a time of testing at the judgment day to see what kind of work each builder has done. Everyone's work will be put through the fire to see whether or not it keeps its value.
1Cr 3:14 If the work survives the fire, that builder will receive a reward.
1Cr 3:15 But if the work is burned up, the builder will suffer great loss. The builders themselves will be saved, but like someone escaping through a wall of flames.
1Cr 3:16 Don't you realize that all of you together are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God lives in [fn] you?
1Cr 3:17 God will bring ruin upon anyone who ruins this temple. For God's temple is holy, and you Christians are that temple.
We will be rewarded crowns at the 'Bema' Judgement seat of Christ...(various scriptures..)
James 1:12 (NIV)
12 Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.
We are still human in a fallen world. Many of us have trouble submitting to God... Each one of us will die in sin of some sort or another. Sin is Sin. Can we be perfect? We are perfect in God's eyes by the blood of Christ. Saved by our faith in what Jesus has done on the Cross for us...nothing of our own doing except our faith...which also comes from God.
Nothing can separate us from the Love of God (Romans 8:38-39)
As believers, we know we have eternal life. (1 John 5:13)
If i were to say that any person who has committed any sin was a believer or not..or is in heaven.....How can I say such a thing? Only God knows!
My desire is to hear these words:
Mat 25:21 "His master said to him, 'Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.'
So...having said all this...only God knows the answer.. Let us all walk in faith, trust obedience and submission...so that when a Christian brother or sister is hurting, we can be the ones to say "Here am I Lord, send me".
Blessings, Carla
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Hi all...
After quite a lot of thought on this topic, I came to the conclusion that I'm simply not ready to receive a definite answer to the question, otherwise, God would reveal it to me. Sometimes, we have not the answers for reasons we might not understand. In such cases, I believe the basic importance is to understand and accept that we, our self, might not have reached a degree of which the Lord can trust us with an absolute answer to our question. When I am ready, God will reveal it to me, of that I can be sure.
My hope is that I have not touched a sensitive cord with anyone by my challenging points. I realize my inquisition may hold the potential for hurting someone deeply, but please know that was not my intention. I am just wanting to find answers.
I completely understand that as human beings we do not possess an ability to know who is saved, individually, and who is not. The final say is God's alone. No possible argument can exist with that. And who knows, maybe the answer to this topic is one that only God holds, and for a good reason. Maybe none of us are supposed to obtain a definite answer to this...just a thought for churning.
I will say this and leave it there... I do take into account the probability, or certainty, that we all have come short of asking God's forgiveness for every individual sin we ever committed. Therefore, my whole argument up to this point falls right apart. Thanks D.V. for pointing out that very fact with this statement:
A Christian that took His own live has sin and broken many hearts, but I can bet that almost everyone that dies (being a Christian) probably dies without asking for forgiveness of some sin or sins they recently committed before dying. But sis this is not something I argue fiercely.
how true it is!
Blessings,
Glenda
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hahaahaha Glenda hahaha you are too cool. Lord! - Beautiful attitude sister, hallelujah!!!!
I learned long ago that I can only keep learning if I continue to study and understand that I do not know it all. A teachable attitude is a must for growth and pleasing to the Lord.
:)
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Hi Glenda,
Isn't it so freeing to say we don't know.... I love it that we don't have to have all the answers..
You are a blessing sis..
In Him, Carla
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