Calvanism. How do I tell if a Christian church is teaching Calvanism? and should I not attend it? What is the biggest problem with Calvanism?

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Dean Clark on February 9, 2008 at 8:42am

Paige,
I attended a church that was anti-Calvinism when I was saved, meaning that they believe ANYONE can accept Jesus at anytime and if they don't then it is their fault 100%. What this looked like in the service is that there was a huge push EVERY week for people to come to Christ and the teaching was very light-weight. My church now is more Calvinism based and we still share the Gospel every week, but a Calvinist trusts that Christ is working in soneone's heart and until God softens that heart and does a miracle work there, then that person is unable to accept Christ's free gift of salvation.

The example I love is Lazarus, he died and was in the tomb four days. He was starting to decay and stunk. The only thing his sisters and the mourners could do was weep and wail. However, someone called for Jesus...the only other thing they could do. Jesus had the power to speak into the tomb and make a dead thing alive again. I believe this is a picture of our hearts before Christ...they are dead, stink and are hopeless. I believe Christ needs to speak into the tomb of our hearts and make a dead heart alive again. THEN we can accept Christ as our savior because God through Christ is at work there.

This has been a great help to me because I have many unsaved friends and family. I am a salesman by trade and used to beat myself up for not sharing with anyone and everyone (because all they had to do was accept Christ TODAY and be saved). I now believe God gives us the PRIVILEGE of being a PART of the PROCESS. We are not the process, God is! Just like the mourners outside the tomb of Lazarus had nothing to do with his coming back to life, however they got to witness a huge miracle. The person who called for Jesus at Lazarus' tomb had the biggest blessing of all. That is our job, be faithful to share, call on Jesus in prayer and thank HIM for the answered prayer. God does not need salesmen, he needs obedient, prayerful, lovers of the word and lovers of HIS people.

God bless you,
Dean Clark
www.MissionPossibleCards.com
Dean@AllAboutGod.com

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Greg, TheNET Coordinator on February 9, 2008 at 10:38am

Dean, I think your explanation is just tremendous! What I like about it is that it is so heartfelt and practical. Our beliefs DO have consequences! Believing everything depends on us leads to compulsion, insecurity and makes us pushy. Who wants to hand around with that kind of person. Thank you for this great explanation!

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Carla on February 23, 2008 at 7:04pm

Dean,
Beautifully stated. Thank you for this! God Bless, Carla

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Greg, TheNET Coordinator on January 21, 2008 at 9:27am

Paige,

Your confusion is understandable. I'll try to explain it.

You are correct, the whole Bible is the Word of God. And, as you know, there is a vast amount of information in the Bible. Because people are made in God's image, they have a tendency to want to bring order to things and this is the reason we have things like science, computers, encyclopedias and dictionaries: to categorize and bring "order" to lots of information.

There is a branch of theology (theology means "the study of God") called systematic theology. Systematic theology attempts to take everything in the Bible and to put it into categories or topics like an encyclopedia. Under any given topic, systematic theology takes everything the Bible teaches about that topic and then compares it and reconciles it in order to make summary statements that end up being called "doctrines" (e.g. doctrine of the Trinity, doctrine of the church, doctrine of salvation, etc.)

Calvinism, Arminianism and many of the other "isms" within Christianity are attempts by people to systemetize theology and everything the Word of God teaches about how a person is saved by looking at everything the Bible teaches on the subject. There is nothing inherently wrong or evil in such studies, the evil comes when we form divisions among ourselves, argue over words, don't love each other, and insist that our view is right and everyone else is wrong.

On one hand, faith in Christ is very simple. We have to be like children to enter the Kingdom of God. On the other hand, the Bible is a very complex book and it is incredibly deep (yet another paradox). You can study it your entire life and never exhaust its resources. You are right to want to get into the "meat" and that is part of the maturing process.

Your desire to keep things simple is understandable. In the same way, perhaps I would want to go back to being an infant, because it was much easier for me and growing up is bewildering and confusing. They say ignorance is bliss, but I don't think God wants us to remain ignorant of His Word and of theological ideas out there. He wants all of us to grow.

Hold on to all the things that brought you to the Lord in the first place. Yes, you will be confused and bewildered for a while, but that is not necessarily a bad thing. Use the confusion to dig deeper in God's word and in seeking Him. You will come out a stronger believer on the other side.

I leave it up to someone else to tell you about who John Calvin was or you can look him up on Wikipedia; there is a pretty good, balanced biography of him there.

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Scribe D'Nucov on February 13, 2008 at 7:13pm

Greg (and all), I really enjoyed reading this explanation. The one thing I would add is just that although I agree that we should live out a quest to understand, and we can have areas where we become confident - there should, in my opinion, always be a degree of humility with regards to understanding of faith and theology.

Jesus opposed proudly arrogant people who were confident that they had all the answers, and I believe he would oppose many in the church today who are critically confident in their answers.

No matter how strong we become in faith and theology - humility is always in order. It's a quality that many "correct" theologians lack. And I am confident of the fact that arrogance offends Christ.

So no matter how confident we become, we still can never fully "know" all the answers, or become the ultimate arbiter of truth. "let anyone who thinks he stands, take heed lest he fall".

Blessings!

Scribe

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Jasgang on January 19, 2008 at 6:16am

Well, I believe all of you are Calvinist and that you can find literature and/or schools that confirm all the things you say. Mary was the mother of Jesus and a great many schools and/or much literature and "churches" today promote the worship of Mary. Our schools have thrown God out, promoting safe sex, homosexuality, destroying God's makeup of the family, and the list could go on. Man made institutions and written material are not the foundation for truth. According to "calvinism," and other "isms," but especially calvinism, we really don't need anything, not even the Bible, because we have or cannot control or do anything that we want to do or not do. The "osas" crowd believes that after you get "saved" (and to me saved is what will happen at the end of this journey called life), you have less freedom and/or liberty to make or choose anything, way, path, etc.. What took place after Calvary was that Jesus open the door to those who were and are in bondage to sin. By grace THROUGH FAITH in Christ, the Holy Spirit gives freedom, as he leads toward the will and ways of God. What most of all the man-made doctrines do is say that the work of the Cross was null and void because it doesn't change anything.
I will probably not correspond any further because it seems as though we are firm in what we believe. I am somebody because God predestined not only me, but all to be somebody in Christ as we yield to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. You are among God's createst work, you are made in His image. You live and breath, make choices, have feeling, but with those liberties and freedoms, you also have responsiblities and accountabilities. It is just easier for us to put all the blame on God or someone else if things go wrong. But the day will come when every knee will bow and every tongue cofess Jesus is Lord to the glory of God. Joshua 24:15 said, "CHOOSE YOU this day, whom you will serve, as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord."
Good luck on your journey.

In the Lord
Bro. James

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Greg, TheNET Coordinator on January 19, 2008 at 10:53am

Bro. James,

I think you are misrepresenting my position, but, you know what, it doesn't matter! The main thing is that we both love the Lord Jesus and are doing our best to serve Him, each in our own way because you are right; we do have liberties and responsibilities. I imagine we agree on about 99% on what's in the Scriptures. Let's not divide on the 1%, okay? As the Bible commands us, let's keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

I respect your opinion and hope you will extend the same to others. You are welcome here and loved!

Grace be with you, brother!
Greg

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Scribe D'Nucov on February 13, 2008 at 7:16pm

Brother James, I have read Calvin, as well as Wesley and others who opposed his thinking. I would not call myself a Calvinist - partly because I reject the concept of labeling and partly because I do not agree with one and a half major points of Calvinist theology.

I would heartily disagree with you, however in your claim that "According to 'calvinism,' and other "isms," but especially calvinism, we really don't need anything, not even the Bible, because we have or cannot control or do anything that we want to do or not do." Calvin did not teach this. Some who followed him may have taken his framework to mean this (I have met those who did), yet Calvin would disagree with that thinking, I believe.

Scribe

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Forgiven_Son_of_Adam on February 9, 2008 at 6:18am

Dear Paige,

Just a word of encouragement, if I may... and a bit of unsolicited advice. Don't be afraid of John Calvin. The reason for his renown is that he was a world-class Bible scholar and is considered a late Reformer. I have a definite Calvinistic bent in my belief system. Let me, please, explain.

On the issue of total depravity, I accept that we cannot earn our way to heaven. There is no salvation of one's own soul. But I do believe that some people go searching after God. But regardless of their attempts, they will fail to reach the Lord, no matter how hard they try or how high their level of sincerity. Faith in Christ is the key and that, to me, takes a personal decision, but the saving action is still God's.

My view of unconditional election is that it does indeed exist, however, I do not believe that God would turn away a sincere seeker, should that ever occur. (It never will, since God has perfect knowledge of what will happen -- and I believe what MIGHT HAVE happened/still may happen if a different path was/is taken.) The one problem with unconditional election that I see is that I think it eventually leads to "double election." That is to say that if one is chosen to be saved (elected), then one has been elected to damnation.

So far as a limited atonement, I am a (genetic -- both parents, all four grandparents) Baptist and had I lived in the past I would have been a General Baptist rather than a Particular Baptist since I believe in general redemption. I am fully convinced that Jesus died for the whole of humanity, from Adam and Eve to the very last person who will ever be born. I am fully convinced as well that it was effectual for all humanity, but one must come to Christ to gain its benefits. It is limited only in that certain people will come to Jesus to come into right relationship with God. (By the way, I pick on Baptist a lot, but only because I am one, just like fat people, [American] Southerners, and Republicans.)

Irresistible grace I believe exists and God knows who is going to resist Him. But for a lot of people, that resistance is not a permanent state. Do I believe that some people will be instantly drawn to God's grace and unable to deny Him? Absolutely! But I also know of people who got tired of running from Him and finally "gave in" to God and surrendered to Him. (This is even especially true of Christians who run from God's call to a specific ministry or task. Trust me... I know from experience.)

The preservation of the saints has my unequivocal support. Once He has you, you stay His, period. Saving us and keeping us is His job; following His will is ours.

I have never seen myself as a Calvinist, but I still consider myself Calvinistic and enjoy fellowship with several of my friends who are of that persuasion. And I fully agree with Brother Greg, our coordinator, that our unity in Christ is paramount. We can disagree on minor, nonessential issues. Though I have my problems with certain denominations, I like the motto of a local United Methodist church: "In essentials, unity; in nonessentials, liberty; in all things, love."

Hopefully, I haven't muddied the waters for you nor offended you (or anyone else), but I thought that you might glean something from my insight. I have wrestled with this for a long while and this was my solution. Read your Bible, pray, and never, never, stop asking the questions. Seek after Him and His truth. Run after Him. Knock, and He will answer!

Your friend,

Thomas
A Forgiven Son of Adam

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Ron Payne on February 9, 2008 at 3:33pm

Whoa There! This is a fruitless discussion for Theologians and not Christians.
Is it not amazing how all of us saved by Grace by the foreknowledge of God can get all worked up over Calvinism (in some cases Hyper Calvinism) and Arminianism.

Imagine if you will, an Arminian standing on the side of a deep river and a Calvanist on the other.
Both beliefs with all their doctrines, run from the river banks down into the depths of the river. Somewhere there in the depths of the river bed, lies the truth of both sides touching each other.
The Arminian and Calvinistic believers can get so caught up with their own pet theories that they themselves are found fighting over it. Both can be very sincere, yet sadly, both can be sincerely wrong.
Who but God knows where these theories meet and come into agreement with each other?
We as Christians should spend our energies on improving our relationship with the Author and Finisher of our faith.
As Calvinists or Arminians, our theories may be right or wrong and will never save us. BUT our relationship with the Son of God who paid the uiltimate price for our Salvation, will. God help and Bless us all.
Your brother in Christ - Ron

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Forgiven_Son_of_Adam on February 9, 2008 at 5:37pm

Brother Ron,

What may be fruitless to you may be a relief to some others.

We are told to find the answers and seek the counsel of other Christians. These theories are an attempt to understand the concepts of the Bible. And, as Christians, theology IS our job; it is part-and-parcel of "improving our relationship with the Author and Finisher of our faith." May I gently remind you of the following: We are to love Him with our minds as well, and "theology" comes from "theos" (god, which we have Christianized to "God") and "ologia" (the study of).

In Christ,
Thomas

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Ron Payne on February 9, 2008 at 10:49pm

Yes Thomas! The Bible even goes further to say: “Search the Scriptures ; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.” (John 5:39)
Plus, all of us can quote: Acts 17:11 “These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so”.

But while we are here to learn from each other, there are also warnings: “Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.”(1Ti 1:4 )
But refuse profane and old wives' fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness. (1Ti 4:7)

Because none of us can say with full assurance, “I hold the truth” we have to be aware of The platform on which we say it. That is why, in my letter, I started with “This is a fruitless discussion for Theologians and not Christians.”

First reason. There are hundreds of Christians watching, who have their own version of the subject and we will find each one of us, doing exactly what we were warned about “Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying.”

Second reason. In this arena there are some “Babes in Christ” who reading what is being said, will become more confused than all of us. – Perhaps this is why there is so much divergence on this subject, in that we ourselves, may have fallen prey to “old wives fables” when we, were still babes?

Until we are thoroughly convinced, that what we are saying is the very truth of God, let us hold our tongues and “exercise ourselves rather unto godliness.”
Because of the two reasons given above, I had hoped this discussion would have been left “For the Boardroom.” While we rather lift others up and point each other to the Cross.

Your brother in Christ.
Ron

▶ Reply to This

• 1
• 2
• 3
• 4