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We Should Have Left With Him
A little levity - When the Supreme Court kicked God our of our schools, maybe we all should have got up and left with Him. We didn't and ever since we have been guilty of giving our children a godless education. Could that have anything to do with what we are seeing today?
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on
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Amanda,
It's really cool when we get to the place where we enjoy the search of perusing God's truth, because we know that in the search we will fall deeper in love with him. The more we learn about God, the more we see how BEAUTIFUL HE IS, HE IS LOVELY.
Understanding that as the creation we cannot understand all of God's ways we are content and enjoy as much as He wants to share with us. I know you know these things, so I am just saying :)
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Permalink Reply by Amanda on
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Thanks, David. I feel that all my life I have been on a great search for God's truth. Being able to read God's Word is, I think, the thing that has helped me get though the past two years more than anything else except for God Himself. Being able to come here and talk to all of you about it has been of great help, too.
As far as this discussion goes, the disorder we see all around us cannot be something God created or caused. What God created was good and man was innocent. The physical and moral disorder we see all around us is man's creation, isn't it? The consequence of man's disobedience? Was that predetermined? Or does man have an independence of God ... which allows man to use his will for evil? Does that mean God's power over His creation is infinite in all the range of His creation except where man is concerned because man can resist God's will and do his own will instead?These are hard questions. I am not expecting any answers. I do understand that as the creation of God I cannot understand all of God's ways. I do understand that since God is all powerful, then even the resistance of man to do God's will is in some mysterious way a manifestation of God's will. They both co-exist. God's prescient power and man's liberties to do as man wills instead of as God wills except for the times when God steps in and overrides man's will. Man's disobedience led to a decree by God that we now live a short life of sorrow relieved only by death here on earth. Yet God is merciful as well as just and watches tenderly over His creation and over the creatures who have rebelled against Him and has brought to us the possibility of atonement and full reconciliation.
My post probably doesn't make too much sense but I just want everyone to know that I have been a student of God's truth nearly all my life from a very young age. My eyes have always been on God even during the hardest times. I have always looked to Him and looked for Him even while it seemed to others I was not focusing on God. Even at my very lowest point I was whispering I'm sorry for letting You down ... forgive me.
God atoned for Adam's act of disobedience and for ours, too. Human guilt is covered by the Son of God who paid the full measure due in human suffering and human death for sin and not only did Christ do this, Christ also kept the law for us without erring.
All through the OT we find humans suffering and we call them anti-types, I think, of Christ -- certain individuals who suffer and bring relief to their fellow man and glory to God, such as Joseph. Not only do we find individuals but we also find a whole nation, the Hebrews, as a chosen nation that suffers from all the rest. A nation set apart, sometimes mocked and laughed at, sometimes feared, always alien, different from any other nation of the world. God's chosen people today are the same, sometimes laughed at, sometimes feared and always alien, and always different. Yes, God is beautiful.
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Permalink Reply by a servant (Chris) on
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Roy
You stated your views in such a way that, one could see you have pondered and Prayed about them. I have only one "issue" {for lack of a better word} but the line that went, "I tend to believe that Satan does have the power to create some" I do not mean to nit pick. I do not believe satan can create anything, if it could then it would have a truth. And, we no there is no truth in the enemy, it can only pervert.
Roy, I trust you know my heart. I am not criticizing you in any way. I just know the enemy cannot create anything.
I know God set up authority and takes down authority.
Lord Bless you my Brother
Chris
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Lord Bless Brother
I knew that you knew that {say that 5 times fast}
I figured it came down to semantics, with the way you shared your view. I believed you would not mind, me sharing.
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Permalink Reply by RoyW on
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Amen, Chris,
I think this election should reveal to God's people His sovereignty in the affairs of men. I know God loves His people. He is protecting them by His sovereign will. If someone that belongs to God dies in some kind of disaster, that is God at work. They will be greatly blessed. Many wonderful Christians went down with the twin towers on 9/11. Anyone that doesn't think that God is involved in attempting to get our attention in America is just not very observant. I know these were evil terrorists but they had to get God's approval or at least His permission to do such a thing. Those believers that went to be with our Lord are very blessed. We who are left are the ones who suffer - not the ones who go.
I know Christians in America who believe everything we consider good from God and everything we consider bad from the devil have to be wondering what in the world is going on. Those who have the view of a sovereign God are probably having a little easier time with all the events over the past couple of decades.
God wants His people to come closer to Him. He is calling us to draw near. I think the church had better have a good explanation for all these recent and present events or become non-relative.
I hope Christians don't think the Republican party is our answer nor is the Democratic party. We had several years of Republican leadership and got virtually nothing done. Bush some kind of frivolous ruling on abortion but nothing really changed. I don't know why the woman's movement worries about electing a Republican president when it comes to abortion. I don't think Romney would have made a dent in that movement. Our only hope is in the Lord. We have been a moral nation for a very long time. Today, those morals are virtually gone. We no longer represent God to the world. We are now leading the world in becoming more lasciviousness. I don't now about you but I am willing for God to take some action. We, the church, are just not getting the job done anymore. This is the day for God's people to rise up and say, "enough is enough."
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Permalink Reply by Charles Burwell on
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Roy
Very well stated , my brother. I am currently going through a restoration of fellowship with the Lord that I have long prayed for. It is a painful process but God is granting my most urgent prayer through a very bad situation I am going through.
I can , however, say that the worst is over and I am experiencing the presence of the Lord in my life as I have not in a very long time. The Lord has taken what was becoming only a head knowledge and returning to a vital and very real experience. My testimony concerning the situation is forthcoming in the very near future. God is better still than I have ever been able to imagine before.
I can especially relate to your comment about " I know Christians in America who believe everything we consider good from God and everything we consider bad from the devil have to be wondering what is going on in the world."
I am currently experiencing the reality of a statement I heard long ago and have recorded in one of my bibles. The comment is:
" Faith does not say ' It is good for me , therefore God sent it' .
Rather faith says ' God has sent it , therefore it is good for me.'"
Our perceptions of things gets very distorted sometimes. The experience I am currently going through is one that would normally have called a bad thing , but God is using this experience to draw me back to the deeper , more intimate relationship that my heart has been seeking for a good while.
God allowed this to happen to answer my prayer . Not the answer I would have thought to be best but one that has resulted in a blessing that I could not have imagined and He has let me know that He has not really gotten a good start yet.
I can barely speak sometimes or even type this message without tears of joy blurring my eyes and preventing me from speaking. I am on a computer at the library so I have to keep pausing to compose myself so I don't distract people.
GOD IS GOOD.
God bless you , my brother
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Brother,
This is a wonderful statement: " Faith does not say ' It is good for me , therefore God sent it' .
Rather faith says ' God has sent it , therefore it is good for me.'"
I know those exact feelings you describe of God's blessing flowing over you as you realize Your Father is in absolute charge of this world and that He loves you unendingly and without reservation.
Blessings to you as well.
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Permalink Reply by JB on
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“Quote”
I know Christians in America who believe everything we consider good from God and everything we consider bad from the devil have to be wondering what in the world is going on. Those who have the view of a sovereign God are probably having a little easier time with all the events over the past couple of decades.
Roy;
I for one, am not wondering for a moment about what is going on in this world! I just believe that: as it says in James 1:17,
“Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning”. So if a Katrina and a Sandy is a good gift from God to His people, then by all means why wouldn’t we pray for more of them?“Quote”
I don't now about you but I am willing for God to take some action. We, the church, are just not getting the job done anymore. This is the day for God's people to rise up and say, "enough is enough."
Hello Roy,
I guess I am just a little confused; because I am not completely understanding this statement, in light of your beliefs about God bringing all these things on the USA.
Are we telling God that this is enough?? And how much more involved do you think God ought to get than sending a Katrina, and a Sandy, to wake up His people, or to bring about His pleasures? I have got to be missing something. I just came off a rather long drive and maybe not thinking clearly.
Could you please enlighten me?
Your brother in the Lord.
Joe
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Joe,
Every good gift is from above. However, the disasters are from God as well. Yet, Scripture tells us that God works everything to the good to those that love Him and are called according to His purpose. You seem to believe that everything good is from God and everything we consider bad is from the devil. It might appear that the things that come are bad but if God works them to our good, then they are good. You speak of Sandy and Katrina. These are only a drop in the bucket compared to some of the disasters that have happened in our world. Sometimes entire civilizations have been wiped off the face of the earth. A volcano has the power to destroy an entire civilization that lives in close proximity to them. I think it was Pompey that was wiped out at one time as an example.
We have enjoyed God's great protective hand for years even though we have had some crises. Was this just a quirk of nature? If so, who is in charge of nature. Does Satan control nature or does God control nature? In your theology, who is in charge - God or Satan?
I believe God is in absolute charge. It is time for us to repent and turn to God. Have we become a socialistic nation? I think we have. It happened so gradual I don't think many realize that. I personally believe socialism to an extreme is evil. We do still have some freedoms but it is certainly not like the freedom you and I know from the past.
Anyway, I personally believe God is speaking to us. How much further will He allow us to go? We have now endorsed homosexual marriage. We have been brow beaten through the media and through our schools that this is okay.
The Republicans are now whistling a new tune after this their most recent defeat. One of the things I heard a very popular pro-life governor say was we can retain our values but still help those who want abortions. Is that okay? While many Republicans have this view there have been those who have believed we should not have laws allowing abortion. Soon, if you speak out against any of these things I think your voice will somehow be silenced.
Toleration is what we are being taught and toleration is what Sodom was judged for. When Elijah by the hand of God brought a 3.5 year drought on Israel, he did so to encourage the Israelites to turn back to God.
If God has nothing to do with this kind of phenomenon, everything is okay and I should be silent. However, if God is trying to speak to our nation, we should not get in His way by saying that is not God. We say we believe God is the true God over all this earth. The following has to be true:
Either 1) God created the world and then left it to itself to act as it deems,
2) God created the world but because of man's sin, turned it over to the devil,
3) The world evolved from chemicals as well as we and none of this has to do with anything,
4) or God created the world and is still very actively involved in it having total control of nature.
What do you think? I do think that God does allow Satan to manipulate part of nature but as Chris pointed out Satan does not have the power to create.
It does appear that God will allow Satan go to a certain extent but beyond that He will put a stop to him. Satan cannot do a whole lot without getting permission. I personally think he has very little leeway.
I have fourteen grandchildren and do not want any disasters to come to them or anyone else in this world. Do disasters come because we don't have the faith to stop them? Many tried to cast that hurricane out to sea. Are we lacking in faith? It does appear that enough faith will stop the wind and waves doesn't it? Did God send that horrendous storm that caused Jonah's boat to almost sink forcing him to be thrown into the sea? All storms are not bad. That storm ended up in a revival in Nineveh.
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It is very tough for a Christian to have the view that sometimes these kind of things happen and we really don't understand why. This was a big one. It did appear to not only affect a huge part of our population but turned an election as well. There are many differing opinions. If you listen to Al Gore he will tell you that this hurricane was a result of global warming. Are we entering a difficult time in America or was this just a quirk?
Life on this earth is very, very brief. We become so humanistic in our thinking that we actually begin to think how long this life lasts is critically important. What matters in this life is being prepared to meet our Lord. It is a blessing to go early to meet our Lord. Some are forced to stick around awhile. Some are forced to be here a long time, Joe. haha
We really need to focus our eyes on our life in Christ which will never end. God will not cut short one life that will eventually come to Him but only He knows who will. I really do believe from the verses in Romans 8:28 and 29 that God is working on behalf of those He calls His own. To the believer, leaving this world is not a bad thing. However, I can't think of anything worse than for an individual not knowing God being called to give an account of his life. Have we begun to present to our world a lenient and tolerant God? Are we making God more politically correct? I think it is worth our time to consider the possibility that God is speaking to us through the storms.
It matters not what I think or say. What does matter is that the last several years we have seen some pretty rough things happen on these shores. Maybe we should consider what might just be the source of them.
Did the dust bowls have anything to do with the roaring 20's?
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The following has to be true:
Either 1) God created the world and then left it to itself to act as it deems,
2) God created the world but because of man's sin, turned it over to the devil,
3) The world evolved from chemicals as well as we and none of this has to do with anything,
4) or God created the world and is still very actively involved in it having total control of nature.
What do you think? I do think that God does allow Satan to manipulate part of nature but as Chris pointed out Satan does not have the power to create.Roy,
There is another thesis. We read this in Isaiah 51:6:
Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look at the earth beneath; for the heavens vanish like smoke, the earth will wear out like a garment, and they who dwell in it will die in like manner; but my salvation will be forever, and my righteousness will never be dismayed. (ESV)
And again in Psalm 102, we read:
25 In the beginning you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
26 They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
Like clothing you will change them
and they will be discarded.
27 But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.
28 The children of your servants will live in your presence;
their descendants will be established before you.” (NIV)Because of the Fall of Man, God decreed that all of creation is under a curse. We look for a new heaven and a new earth. This earth is wearing out. Therefore, natural disasters are ... well ... naturally occurring, too ... just like our bodies are wearing out with aging -- which can be a natural disaster in many ways :)
I have a little Lhasa Apso and she is about 13 now and she is wearing out. The vet even says she is showing signs of doggie dementia. She once was so smart and bright and filled with energy. Now I have to lift her upon the bed; she is unable to jump that high. I have to give her pain medication and her eyes are starting to lose their sight. She got old on me. But she still has some moments of being energetic. Animals are under the curse, too. They even have pain when they give birth, just as God said would be the case for women. It's a fallen world.
We read in Scriptures where God does cause storms, such as you mentioned in the case of Jonah. Was the storm in Acts 27 caused by God?
4 From there we put out to sea again and passed to the lee of Cyprus because the winds were against us.
5 When we had sailed across the open sea off the coast of Cilicia and Pamphylia, we landed at Myra in Lycia.
6 There the centurion found an Alexandrian ship sailing for Italy and put us on board.
7 We made slow headway for many days and had difficulty arriving off Cnidus. When the wind did not allow us to hold our course, we sailed to the lee of Crete, opposite Salmone.
8 We moved along the coast with difficulty and came to a place called Fair Havens, near the town of Lasea.
9 Much time had been lost, and sailing had already become dangerous because by now it was after the Day of Atonement. So Paul warned them,
10 “Men, I can see that our voyage is going to be disastrous and bring great loss to ship and cargo, and to our own lives also.”
11 But the centurion, instead of listening to what Paul said, followed the advice of the pilot and of the owner of the ship.
12 Since the harbor was unsuitable to winter in, the majority decided that we should sail on, hoping to reach Phoenix and winter there. This was a harbor in Crete, facing both southwest and northwest.
13 When a gentle south wind began to blow, they saw their opportunity; so they weighed anchor and sailed along the shore of Crete.
14 Before very long, a wind of hurricane force, called the Northeaster, swept down from the island.
15 The ship was caught by the storm and could not head into the wind; so we gave way to it and were driven along. (NIV)
So I think there are three causes of natural disasters and God certainly is Sovereign because God does not intervene to stop them when they naturally occur or when Satan is manipulating and causing them. Nonetheless, God does directly cause them, too. But how can we ever really know which is which? Of course, the bible clearly tells us which ones are which ... but here and now ... we must have discernment ... and yet it is still difficult to know.
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