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Jewish Gehenna or Catholic Purgatory. What are your views
Most Christians dont believe in Purgatory. I know, but when I debate with those who reject the Catholic Canon of the OT but actually respect the Jewish religion, I generally get confused as to why they reject one and accept the other, since the Catholic purgatory comes from the Jewish belief in Gehenna - the jewish purgatory.
Please let me have your views and help me out with a little essay I am going to write on this subject.
Please note I am NOT trying to debate if Purgatory is a valid doctrine, but if those who reject it are aware that it comes from Judaism and what are their stand on this point.
Thanks!
PURGATORY:
An intermediate state through which souls are to pass in order to be purified from sin before they are admitted into the heavenly paradise. The belief in purgatory, fundamental with the Roman Catholic Church, is based by the Church authorities chiefly upon II Macc. xii. 44-45: "If he [Judas] had not hoped that they that were slain should have risen again it had been superfluous and vain to pray for the (dead. . . . Whereupon he made an atonement that they might be delivered from sin"; for this indicates that souls after death pass through an intermediate state in which they may by some intercession be saved from doom. The same view, that an atonement should be made for the dead, is expressed in Sifre, Deut. 210. The idea of an intermediate state of the soul, release from which may be obtained by intercession of the saints, is clearly dwelt upon in the Testament of Abraham, Recension A, xiv., where the description is given of a soul which, because its good and its evil deeds are equal, has to undergo the process of purification while remaining in a middle state, and on whose behalf Abraham intercedes, the angels joining him in his prayer, whereupon the soul is admitted into paradise.
Rabbinic Views.The view of purgatory is still more clearly expressed in rabbinical passages, as in the teaching of the Shammaites: "In the last judgment day there shall be three classes of souls: the righteous shall at once be written down for the life everlasting; the wicked, for Gehenna; but those whose virtues and sins counterbalance one another shall go down to Gehenna and float up and down until they rise purified; for of them it is said: 'I will bring the third part into the fire and refine them as silver is refined, and try them as gold is tried' [Zech. xiii. 9.]; also, 'He [the Lord] bringeth down to Sheol and bringeth up again'" (I Sam. ii. 6). The Hillelites seem to have had no purgatory; for they said: "He who is 'plenteous in mercy' [Ex. xxxiv. 6.] inclines the balance toward mercy, and consequently the intermediates do not descend into Gehenna" (Tosef., Sanh. xiii. 3; R. H. 16b; Bacher, "Ag. Tan." i. 18). Still they also speak of an intermediate state.
Regarding the time which purgatory lasts, the accepted opinion of R. Akiba is twelve months; according to R. Johanan b. Nuri, it is only forty-nine days. Both opinions are based upon Isa. lxvi. 23-24: "From one new moon to another and from one Sabbath to another shall all flesh come to worship before Me, and they shall go forth and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched"; the former interpreting the words "from one new moon to another" to signify all the months of a year; the latter interpreting the words "from one Sabbath to another," in accordance with Lev. xxiii. 15-16, to signify seven weeks. During the twelve months, declares the baraita (Tosef., Sanh. xiii. 4-5; R. H. 16b), the souls of the wicked are judged, and after these twelve months are over they are consumed and transformed into ashes under the feet of the righteous (according to Mal. iii. 21 [A. V. iv. 3]), whereas the great seducers and blasphemers are to undergo eternal tortures in Gehenna without cessation (according to Isa. lxvi. 24).
The righteous, however, and, according to some, also the sinners among the people of Israel for whom Abraham intercedes because they bear the Abrahamic sign of the covenant are not harmed by the fire of Gehenna even when they are required to pass through the intermediate state of purgatory ('Er. 19b; Ḥag. 27a).
History of Purgatory.The idea of the purging fire through which the soul has to pass is found in the Zend-Avesta ("Bundahis," xxx. 20): "All men will pass into the melted metal and become pure; to the righteous it will seem as though he walks through warm milk" (comp. Enoch, lii. 6-7, lxvii. 6-7). The Church Fathers developed the idea of the "ignis purgatorius" into a dogma according to which all souls, including those of the righteous who remain unscathed, have to pass the purgatory (Origen on Ps. xxxvii., Homily 3; Lactantius, "Divinæ Institutiones," vii. 21, 4-7; Jerome on Ps. cxviii., Sermon 20; Commodianus, "Instructiones," ii. 2, 9); hence prayers and offerings for the souls in purgatory were instituted (Tertullian, "De Corona Militis," 3-4; "De Monogamia," 10; "Exhortatio Castitatis," 11; Augustine, "Enchiridion ad Lauram," 67-69, 109; Gregory I., "Dialogi," iv. 57). Hence also arose in the Church the mass for the dead corresponding in the Synagogue to the Ḳaddish (see Ḳaddish).
- Boeklen, Die Verwandtschaft der Jüdisch-Christlichen mit der Persischen Eschatologie, 1902, pp. 118-125;
- Atzberger, Die Christliche Eschatologie, 1890, pp. 99 et seq., 162, 275;
- Herzog-Hauck, Real-Encyc, s.v. Fegefeuer;
- McClintock and Strong, Cyc. s.v.
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Amanda on
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Wow, I wrote that in April. God has been working in my life so much. Thanks, Scribe.
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Permalink Reply by ScribeD on
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When I saw this discussion last night, it appeared to be a brand new discussion with no comments. I have spent the day praying and studying to answer it. Didn't realize it was already being hashed out since April!!
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Scribe,
It is still a current discussion, as Yael continues adding current comments. I admire your zeal. Many of the replies are current, and I believe it's a discussion that needs to continue. -
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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on
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Yael,
I will keep this simple and to the point. Our holiness is based on and in Jesus. We are positionally holy because we are united with Him at new birth (Col. 1:27; 2 Cor. 5:17 and John 17). Salvation has three parts identified in Scripture. These parts are past (justification and regeneration), present (sanctification) and future (glorification). This positional holiness, Christ in us and us in Christ occurs at new birth. We then begin the process of sanctification which is progressive and is lived out day to day. Many of the Scriptures you will seek to use to prove your point deal with the second part of salvation -- sanctification. We are to crucify the flesh, subdue it. We are to renew our minds and walk in alignment with Him. Experiential holiness is evidenced by our continued surrender to Him and overcoming the flesh. Yet, this flesh will pass away and we will receive the glorified body fitted for eternity in the presence of God. This glorification process, the culmination of salvation, is all of GOd and there is nothing man can do to enhance it. he will change us ina twinkling of an eye.
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Yael, in your questions to LT's response... I think you are confusing Holiness with Righteousness.
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Permalink Reply by Yael Levi-Bénédict on
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"You cannot expect to discuss purgatory with non-Catholic Christians and expect that we will not address the belief in purgatory."
That was the whole point of the article above, to inform that belief in purgatory is not exclusive to catholics, it comes from Judaism!
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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on
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Yael,
Judaism may hold a similar practice to the Catholic purgatory. It may even be where the error comes from, but it does not make the Jewish belief in prayers for the dead, practices that God approves. The practice of praying for the dead are not found in the inspired word of God. They are found in the additional Apocryphal books.
Both Judaism and Catholicism are disqualified as valid churches for born again believers to reside, due to the many errors in doctrine they hold to.
Can both Catholicism and Judaism contain members who are truly born again, I suppose so, only God knows, but born again believers should come out from such organizations. Not to perfect churches that have it all together in practice, for no institution is perfect in all matters of God and Godliness, because the members are imperfect, but at the very least to churches that are perfect in foundational beliefs.
True Christians have a moral obligations to leave churches that teach heresy, other gospels.
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If God did not approve it, it would not be in the bible.
Please watch this - go to 2.39http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9Uyg0qHhec&feature=share&li...
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Yael,
Praying for or to the dead are not biblical practices and they are not found in the bible. Can you show me where it is in the bible? I watched the vid, but don't see how that video has authority in the subject.
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Permalink Reply by Tammy on
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I agree totally with David. I take no authority over the word of God that He has given us to know Him in His fullness. We are not to add nor take away. We are not to take man's word for squat but to look into it for ourselves. Many men are in great authority under Christ but it is still our responsibility to research it for ourselves to make sure we're under full truths.
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