All About GOD - Growing Relationships with Jesus and Others
The Modern Church: How do we compare to Biblical truth?
Hi everyone,
I wanted to start this discussion out of love and concern. I am greatly troubled by the things I see happening all around me. I am particularly troubled by the efficacy of the church in a sea of growing turmoil. I believe that we are living in the last days, but I admit that I could be wrong. It's just that the signs of fulfilled prophecy are all around us. I believe that the church has fallen asleep and is not doing a very effective job reaching the lost for Christ. Do you agree? Why or why not?
Let me give an example. We are all kings and priests (Rev. 5:10). It seems to me, however, that when the Christian gives authority over to a single individual, a pastor, the church often falls into a deep sleep. Isn't the Biblical role of bishop or overseer simply that, one who watches over the flock? I don't believe that overseers are meant to be lords over the church, as they sometimes are, nor should they be scapegoats for dealing with difficult matters that love and a little accountability could otherwise resolve. In today's church, however, it seems that the overseer has become a full-fledged shepherd. I know that Jesus told Peter to tend His sheep, but isn't that still different from what many pastors are expected to be and do today? I fear that the result is that we've become more like sheep; many of us are content, it seems, to simply graze.
What about the church as a whole? Why is it that we don't come together to share with each other as the early church did in Acts 4:32-35? How close are we to what Jesus preached during his three year ministry? When we see a brother sinning, do we actually follow the teachings of Christ in Matthew 18:15-17? Do we speak to our brother or sister out of love or do we expect the pastor or a deacon or someone else to handle it? I don't mean condemning folks or speaking out of turn to people we barely know. What happened to the love that filled the early church? I didn't grow up in church, but I was loved into the faith by a group of earnest believers. I don't think that is as common as it should be.
And I seem to recall God telling men not to build steps before an altar (Exodus 20:26), yet this appears to be something common in many churches around the world. Even if there isn't a literal altar, evangelical churches hold an altar call, during which the repentant sinner is urged to go to the front of the church where, almost invariably, there are steps leading up to the pulpit. Is this not a violation of God's decree? Even if it isn't a literal altar, it seems that there is a suggestion of one--perhaps only spiritually.
Your brother in Christ,
Edward
I wanted to start this discussion out of love and concern. I am greatly troubled by the things I see happening all around me. I am particularly troubled by the efficacy of the church in a sea of growing turmoil. I believe that we are living in the last days, but I admit that I could be wrong. It's just that the signs of fulfilled prophecy are all around us. I believe that the church has fallen asleep and is not doing a very effective job reaching the lost for Christ. Do you agree? Why or why not?
Let me give an example. We are all kings and priests (Rev. 5:10). It seems to me, however, that when the Christian gives authority over to a single individual, a pastor, the church often falls into a deep sleep. Isn't the Biblical role of bishop or overseer simply that, one who watches over the flock? I don't believe that overseers are meant to be lords over the church, as they sometimes are, nor should they be scapegoats for dealing with difficult matters that love and a little accountability could otherwise resolve. In today's church, however, it seems that the overseer has become a full-fledged shepherd. I know that Jesus told Peter to tend His sheep, but isn't that still different from what many pastors are expected to be and do today? I fear that the result is that we've become more like sheep; many of us are content, it seems, to simply graze.
What about the church as a whole? Why is it that we don't come together to share with each other as the early church did in Acts 4:32-35? How close are we to what Jesus preached during his three year ministry? When we see a brother sinning, do we actually follow the teachings of Christ in Matthew 18:15-17? Do we speak to our brother or sister out of love or do we expect the pastor or a deacon or someone else to handle it? I don't mean condemning folks or speaking out of turn to people we barely know. What happened to the love that filled the early church? I didn't grow up in church, but I was loved into the faith by a group of earnest believers. I don't think that is as common as it should be.
And I seem to recall God telling men not to build steps before an altar (Exodus 20:26), yet this appears to be something common in many churches around the world. Even if there isn't a literal altar, evangelical churches hold an altar call, during which the repentant sinner is urged to go to the front of the church where, almost invariably, there are steps leading up to the pulpit. Is this not a violation of God's decree? Even if it isn't a literal altar, it seems that there is a suggestion of one--perhaps only spiritually.
Your brother in Christ,
Edward
Views: 388
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Edward on
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Thank you for sharing that, Bob. I think those are interesting thoughts to ponder. Isn't funny how we look back on the early church in amazement, but we're all so afraid of "communes" that we'd never even think about living in one. Well, most of us anyway. Maybe that's one reason why Satan uses cults the way that he does--it kind of keeps us all afraid of getting too close to each other. How sad that is.
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Permalink Reply by Pastor Bob B on
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What you said is the bulls eye as I see it;
it kind of keeps us all afraid of getting too close to each other.
Years a go when I first became a Christian, many churches would not have music, or especially drums because of how the Devil used these thing. I remember this hippie named, Larry Norman had a song out called, Why should the Devil have all the good music? I wonder how some Churches would deal with some one Like David dancing down the street with all his might. Things have changed a lot in most churches, but as the end times approach things could get so tough that we might have to think about comunial living.
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Permalink Reply by Donna Hardigree on
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I AM NOT GOOD AT QUOTING THE BIBLE BUT SOMETIMES WE CAN GET CAUGHT UP IN LEGALISUM. I THINK WE SHOULD ALWAYS HAVE AN ALTAR CALL OR A TIME WHERE PEOPLE CAN GO UP FOR PRAYER. I DO GO TO ONW OF THE LARGEST CHURCHES OAK HILLS CHURCH. WE HAVE LIFE GROUPS THAT IS LIKE LITTLE GROUPS THAT MEET IN THE HOME. I DO NOT THINK THAT ONE PREACHER SHOULD LEAD IT ALL. IN OUR CHURCH THAT IS WHY WE HAVE ELDERS WHO ARE THE SHEPERDS OF THEL FLOCK. WE HAVE A STAGE AMD ALL FOR MUSICIANS AND THE CHOIR ECT. BUT WHEN THE PEOPLEO COME UP THEY DO NOT CLIMB ANY STAIRS. WE JUST WALKUP THERE TO THE FRONT AND ASK FOR PRAYER. ARE U GOING TO WORRY ABOUT GOING UP STAIRS WHEN THEIR OR SO MUCH MORE INPORTANT THINGS.
IN SISTERLY LOVE
GOD IS THERE TO GIVE US LIFE AND TO GIVE IT TO US MORE ABUDANTLT.
DONNA HARDIGREE
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Permalink Reply by Mandy on
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The Church I attend is Catholic; which I attend for my husband. I have been to 4 different Catholic Churches since my marriage. Only one of them had a pastor that truly accepted me, that is non-Catholic. I was raised in a Lutheran Church, which is similar. But that was not the best experience either. The pastors always took my step-fathers side and told us (females) that we were to follow our Head of the house (man) as the Lord commands. My step-father was not the best role model. And we had great grief in our hearts toward the pastors of that Church for, my mother felt they condemed her. She did not step foot in a Church after my Step-father died for many many years. So at present I am at the belief that the Churches of our time are all not "real" Churches. But gathers of people who lay judgement. I do believe there are still very good Churches that truly live as the Church was meant to. We just have to be careful and look for those things in the Church as Bob mentioned. For me I will never feel I belong to a physical Church. However I feel I belong to the Church of my Lord; which is those that are his. Just like this site, whith all of the people here. If we were to all gather and help each other with meals and other physical things it would be the same. But we gather here and we feed each other with nutrition for the Spirit and we are a Church family in that sense. And I thank the Lord for all of you here. Most of you here are more like Church family to me than the people I sit next to in the pews. Some of the people that go to my Church will tell you," you are sitting in my seat, that is where I always sit"!!! Doesn't exactly feel homey!!! Blessings to this family here on the Net.
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Hi, Donna,
No, I'm not nitpicking. There are a great many things that are, perhaps, much more important to Jesus than whether there are stairs before an altar. I'm only asking us to reflect upon the truths in the Bible. We do not worry about circumcision of the flesh, unless we are born Jewish. My point is simply to ask ourselves why those things in the Old Testament were important to God, and since they apparently were important to Him, why is it that we toss them all aside. No one can keep the Law. This is truth. I'm just wondering why many of us seem so determined to learn as absolutely little about our Father's wisdom and will as possible.
I know that the summary of the Old Testament is spoken in two simple commands--love the Lord your God with all you are and love your neighbor as yourself. Still, how many of us look down on those who file for bankruptcy? Have they not read Deuteronomy 15? The Lord established a year of canceling debts. He did not say, if they try really hard but fail. He said, "At the end of every seven years you must cancel debts." Gee, I wonder where they got the idea of allowing someone to file for bankruptcy only once every seven years. Yet, so many of us have been ensnared by the lies of Satan to get into debt and remain in debt all our lives. Or worse, we've been tricked by the enemy into making sure that we extract every penny we feel we're due.
If we'd just look at the Word of God, we'd learn that this is against the wisdom of God. How can we be free to serve His will if our lives are tied to mortgages and car loans and everything else? These are the questions I ask. I am only concerned because there seems to be such a lack of wisdom among many people I've met.
Am I judging them? No. I only wish someone had directed me to some things that pastors don't often preach about. Perhaps Sunday school would be a better place for these things, but I still don't often hear about such truths. Some folks are still stuck on spiritual milk when they should be chewing the real food, and I'm trying to learn about these things for myself.
Anyway, I'm glad that you took the time to respond. Your thoughts are valued here.
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Permalink Reply by ActualMaureen on
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This is a good question, Edward!
There is a certain amount of complacency in the modern church which frusterates me. I am blessed to be a part of an active church which is always striving to uphold Biblical teachings, but always there is room for improvement. I think it is important to remember that the church is made up of individuals, and those individuals often determine the "tempature" of the church. Before we point our finger at the church, we must first examine ourselves... are we living up to the life to which we have been called? I didn't really know what a fully surrendered life looked like until the last couple of years, when I met some truly Godly people. Without those roll models and mentors to challenge me, I'd still be as stagnant and complacent as ever.
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Maureen; you are right about role models. But I will tell you that the best role models that I have found are right here on this site. There is actually more support, more love and more concern for one anothers faith here than what I experience in my own church. However, I don't go to the Church of my choice, because of my husband. He is devout Catholic, and though I have tried to tell him why I think some of the Catholic practices are not consistent with teachings of the scripture; he tells me that every Christian has a rite to believe the way they want to. So the "Church" which is inclusive of all Christians are not equal. And I think I learn, worship and serve the Lord more than I do at Church.
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Permalink Reply by GoingMyOwnWay on
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One thing I get extremely sick of is when church-goers look down on those who do not attend weekly Mass - the funny thing is, those same church-goers sin so much more than the ones who don't attend!
There's this belief that if you go to Church God will save you on that alone - but what's the point of attending Weekly Mass if you're not going to apply what you have learnt once you walk out of the Church?
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Mark, I went through a time where I felt like you do. Check out my group on healing those who have been spiritually abused and you will be able to understand why. It took me a number of years, but I have found a wonderful church family I belong to now for the last 7 years. God spoke to me and helped me to understand that there was no way I could separate myself from the body of Christ and be a healthy Christian. Just like the human body needs each member to survive, so do we need the body of Christ. There are good churches everywhere, but when we get hurt we tend to exaggerate the issue and conclude that if one church is bad then they are all bad. The church is a group of families who do life together, they are not perfect because no family is perfect, but what holds us together is Christ the head and as we cooperate with him we can have healthy church families.
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