All About GOD - Growing Relationships with Jesus and Others
DOES ONE GOD MAKE A TRINITY?
I have been analyzing the concept of the trinity for some time. I went back to the roots of christianity. It seems that this concept was created over time. It was molded over a few hundred years and as time went on it seemed that we were giving in to the world instead of presenting truth.
Jesus said my father is a spirit being and many will be called to worship him in spirit and truth. Jesus said the words i speak i do not spreak on my own authority but the father who dwells in me he does the works. Jesus said, and this is eternal life that they may know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.It says there is one God and father who is above all through all and in you all. It says one God and father who all the heavens and earth is named.But where does it say trinity. The phrase isnt in the bible anywhere. It was a creation of man with the backing of lucifer. It was an attempt and succesfully presented to inject polytheism into christianity just as it has been injected into other religion.
God is as the air within a balloon . The balloon is empty and has no shape or form. Once air is blown into the balloon it has substance and form. It has mass it takes up considerable space compared to its uninflated form.It is now filled with air. You cannot see air nor touch it though we know it exists. Now if we pop the balloon or let the air out the balloon goes back to its origional shape.God an invisible spirit being inhabits that which is not invisible manefesting himself through that which is able to be seen.
God has shown me that he is the light and jesus is the lamp that the light is within. We if uninitiated believe the lamp is in fact the light but as we grow older we realize that the electricity is that which gives light. It the lamp is just the vessel that holds the electricity which becomes light. God has shown me that water can in fact take three forms. But it is still primarily called water. God has presented himself in three ways, the father in creation the son in redemption and the spirit in his church. These are all part of one God a spirit being. Each different charecteristics of one being,one mind, one consciousness. Just as a man can be a father a son and a brother. Each has different roles and different charecteistics but it doesnt make them three different persons with three different names.
God is as a cloud. The cloud is made up of millions of tiny droplets of water. It can break into smaller clouds or come together and make one large cloud again.
Lucifer remember is a master of subltly. He needs to put idolatry within all religions because this is a major weapon against us obeying God.
The concept presented here doesnt go against the concept of father son and holy spirit but allows a deeper understanding of God as his true person and only person a spirit being.
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Karen Leon on
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Douglas,
Where did you get the idea that elohim is not the original word in the Hebrew. I have a Master of Divinity degree with concentration in Biblical languages and I've never heard this before.
I agree with Roy, Jesus is God, all three parts of the trinity are equal.
My concern over your claim concerning elohim is that some people/denominations teach things about Scripture and the way it was handled in the past that are not true. I don't know where they got off track, but these groups also cling to false beliefs about God and his truth that require their misinformation about Scripture. Have you investigated this yourself or are you relying on information passed on by word of mouth through your denomination only?
I'm not trying to discount any Christian denomination, but during the Great Awakening in the US, many people were won to Christ while waiting to leave with a wagon train to go west. They won others to Christ on the way, and when they arrived wherever they settled, there was frequently no pastor. So they asked someone who could read to become pastor. These local pastors frequently had no training for the job. Many misinterpreted Scripture and relied on info from others that was not always based on the truth. That's why we have so many contradictory beliefs that too often are not based on truth found in Scripture. If it happened in the US it could have happened elsewhere in the world.
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I want to correct/clarify something I posted previously. My Hebrew professor at seminary is my source for the "j" sound in Hebrew, but not all Hebrew professors/experts agree on pronunciation. No one knows for sure exactly how Hebrew was pronounced at the time of writing. Vowels were not added to their written language until many years later. And I recognize that my professor may not have been correct on the "j" sound. However, I do not believe that because someone hundreds of years later pronounces the name of God with a "j" sound has any impact on how we interpret theology or whether of not the Trinity is correct theology.
After rereading recent posts, I agree with both Douglas and Roger. Jesus is equal with God the Father, and is fully God, and yet chose to submit to God the Father while on earth in human form. This was a part of His demonstrating to us that we are to submit to parents and others in authority. Not to suggest we are equal with God, but we are equal as human beings to other human beings, including our parents and those in authority over us in government and work. We submit to keep the peace and so that decisions can be made for our own benefit.
This discussion has actually leaked over into a related topic without even mentioning it. The fact that men and women are equal in God's eyes, have equal value, yet in Scripture, women are instructed to submit to their husbands. Many women in recent years have protested this, feeling that submitting is equivalent to being less valuable in some way, but it is not. God in His wisdom realized that you can't have two "chiefs" running things and making contradictory decisions. In His infinite wisdom, He established who submits to the other in order to keep the peace. Within the marriage, man is to love his wife as Christ loved the church. If the man does this, then the marriage is actually happier than when the two try to share leadership equally. This has actually been documented over the centuries as groups that followed the Scriptures were compared with groups that did not concerning marital problems and happiness reported(or obtained from personal letters as reported to confidants) from within the marriages.
If the man loves his wife, he allows her to express her opinion, and he allows her her wishes, sometimes even when he'd rather do or have something else. The main exception to going along with the wife's wishes is when he really feels strongly that what she wants is not for the best or might create problems or even be against God's will.
The point I want to make with all of this is that if ( this is one of those suppose it might happen even when you know it never would "ifs") God within the Trinity, allows for this type of discussion, and since He is infinitely wise and all-knowing, He will never have any problems with any part of the Trinity being subordinate to another. So the fact that Jesus while on earth in human form was subordinate to God the Father shouldn't really be causing any one to feel this means that He is not equal with God the Father, or is not fully God Himself.
I admire both of you gentlemen for your prayers to help with resolving this difference of opinion.
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To me it's contradictory to say Biblical Unitarian, since in believing that Jesus was just a man, they are not believing the Bible.
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One of the first things I was taught in seminary is that a little training or knowledge of New Testament Greek can cause more harm than good. This is a complex language and definitions or other things learned in application to one verse do not apply everywhere. Things such as context, part of speech for the word or part of speech for nearby words, whether the word is singular or plural, which words are used before or after, and other things can affect the meaning of words. The usage of "the" is complex and can impact meaning based upon many factors.
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I think the difference in our opinion here is that I believe that just because you say you believe the Bible doesn't make it so. The Bible clearly shows that Jesus is God. In my opinion, anyone who believes He's only a man doesn't really believe the Bible no matter how much they claim to be doing so.
Yet at the same time, I am willing to recongize/acknowledge that many have been led astray by others who have incorrectly interpreted or translated Scripture. The discussion just above about Greek is an example.
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Permalink Reply by Douglas A Pavone on
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I think the teaching we have focuses on the physical rather than the spiritual.To disconnect with the world and be in the spirit you must not focus on the physical.
Jesus said my father is spirit.Jesus was God as he was part of the spirit that was the father.They are one.Your interpretation is not based on this concept I believe.It is based on worship that God knew was how we would follow.He took the form of man it said.He was the image of the invisible God.I dont think you are looking at it from this perspective and seeking to worship that which is farmiliar instead of who God is
In christaindom it is commonly stated that he was fully man and fully God. This as it was the only way that God could have accomplished his salvation plan.It says God was in Jesus reconciling the world to himself. Gods spirit within Jesus and Jesus man.We have one God and one mediator between God and man that is the man Jesus christ.He is no longer man now he is in heaven in his glorified body seated at the right hand of the father. No i dont think he is man but at one time he was both man and God.
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Roy i believe. God has worn me down i just read what you wrote and it made sense to me. I dont want to fight the world anymore.I want to save souls.I have a bible study that i have been co running and one of the fellows in it had a discussion on the trinity.It hit home with me in a way that i didnt want it to.
God is spirit and this allows it all to work.I am thankful for the weakness that God has given me.For it says when i am weak then he is strong.
You dont have to answer this i just wanted to let you know that people must have been praying for me.
God bless
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Permalink Reply by RoyW on
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Douglas,
I have removed myself from the conversation only because it appeared I was offending you and that is not something I would want to do. I do feel that eventually one has to come to the understanding that Jesus is God our Savior. I do pray that you continue in your growth in your discovery of Jesus. I pray you will be very successful in the winning of souls.
Roy
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I agree but I would also like an anointed person that has been through seminary. It is the anointing that makes a difference. I certainly agree with that.
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I agree that anointing is really important, I wouldn't want to follow anyone who wasn't anointed, but as a seminary graduate I also believe seminary is good for helping you to learn things that may keep you from going astray, and God uses seminary training as one means of preparing individuals to receive and understand His truth--if it's a good seminary.
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Amen,
I agree completely. I helped put one son through seminary, one son through Bible college and another son through a four year Christian university. The elder son is working now on his doctorate, the youngest on his master's and the other is off to become a train engineer. I couldn't be an ounce prouder of the lot. A daughter working on her doctorate's in education and another teaching in a Christian school. That is called blessing. I obviously believe in higher learning even though I wasn't able to be get that chance myself. God bless you, Karen. You have nothing to be ashamed of in your training. I have no doubt God will use it to His glory.
On the other hand, God can also use those who did not have formal training but have spent hours in His Word. But, one of the most powerful men I know is president of a Christian university in Okla. He is having a tremendous impact on our society. I praise God for all the highly educated people that still are submitted to God. Paul, of course, is a prime example. Yes, God can even use those that have been trained in religion. haha On the other hand, He can use a Peter as well. There you go. That's my two cents worth.
Roy
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One thing I'd like to add: it's important that we don't get swollen heads over what we're learning or how much we think we know. The following verse applies to more than just its actual content in it's comment on knowledge.
1 Corinthians 8:1 Now concerning things offered to idols: We know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love edifies. 2 And if anyone thinks that he knows anything, he knows nothing yet as he ought to know. 3 But if anyone loves God, this one is known by Him.
I think we can do more to push people away from God than anything else if we are not loving in all of our interactions, no matter how much we know or understand otherwise.
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