All About GOD - Growing Relationships with Jesus and Others
Losing Salvation?
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If you could not give up your salvation voluntarily, then once you become saved you could then go ahead and do whatever you wish. You could steal, murder, cheat, lie, never pray, reject the scriptures, lead others astray, blaspheme God from morning to night - do anything that is sinful, rebellious, and against the laws of God. And you could do all this never confessing and never repenting. To believe that "once saved, always saved" is believing that one has a "license to sin" after the person is born again."
LOSING YOUR SALVATION -http://robertwells.tripod.com/losingsalvation.html
YOU CAN'T LOSE YOUR SALVATION OR HAVE IT TAKEN AWAY BUT.......
When you were saved you turned to God. Turning to God means the you have committed your life to trusting and obeying God. In John 1:6-7 it says, "If we claim to have fellowship with Him, yet we walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, then we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son, purifies us from all sin."
According to this text, "If we walk in the darkness, then we do not live by the truth." If our heart is not repentant when we sin, if our attitude is one of disobedience to the Laws and Commandments of God, if we turn away from God, if we live a life of sin, if we decide the effort to lead a Godly life is not worth it, if the actions of our lives indicate that we no longer desire to be one of God's children, then we don't lose our salvation, and salvation isn't taken from us, but we through our own free will, take our salvation and give it back to God. We tell God we don't want it. We give it up!!!
Ezekiel 3:20 "If the righteous turn from their righteousness and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling block before them, they shall die".
If you could not give up your salvation voluntarily, then once you become saved you could then go ahead and do whatever you wish. You could steal, murder, cheat, lie, never pray, reject the scriptures, lead others astray, blaspheme God from morning to night - do anything that is sinful, rebellious, and against the laws of God. To believe that "once saved, always saved" is believing that one has a "license to sin" after the person is born again."
So ask yourself this question. What is the only way to gain eternal salvation? There are a great many verses that tell us the answer. Below are just two of them:
Ephesians 2:8-9 "By this undeserved kindness, indeed, you have been saved through faith, and this not owing to you, it is God's gift."
1Peter 1:5 "Those who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed on the last day.
God makes salvation completely available through Jesus Christ - and not only to specific individuals, but to all who will receive and believe in Jesus Christ as savior. Jesus made this very clear when he said, "Whoever believes in me would not perish but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) The word "whoever" includes everybody. No person is excluded from the opportunity to believe and receive everlasting life.
Your relationship with God, as well as your eternal salvation are based upon faith. Faith that Jesus Christ is who, and what He says he is. And thus if you are committing those sins mentioned in the above paragraph, then you simply don't believe who Jesus is. A person practicing the above sinful actions, certainly indicates that the person no longer has any faith or belief in Jesus Christ.
In other words you can not walk in the darkness unrepentant and still hold onto your salvation. Keep in mind that repentance is much more than stopping the very act of committing those sins that you are asking forgiveness for. Repentance is actually the act of turning away from doing those sins, of not committing them anymore, of changing your life in such a way as you no longer want or desire to commit those sins. You are the one who decides whether to walk in the light or the darkness. God gave you the free will to make your own choices. If you decide to walk in the darkness then your salvation will not be taken away from you, nor will you lose your salvation. No, what you will do is give up your salvation. You will be telling God that your salvation "is not worth the effort it takes to walk in the light". That you do not wish to have his gift of eternal salvation. That you want to make it through this life on your own without any help from God. That you will follow the ways of the world rather than the ways of our Lord. So your own free will determines whether you are going to keep your salvation or give it up. God allows your eternal future to be in your own hands.
Since your own free will is what determines your eternal destiny, then it is very important to note that God will not force anyone to come to him. He is not going to get down on his knees and beg you to believe him, trust him, or accept him. Nor will he force you to love him or demand your obedience. The choice is up to each one of us whether to surrender our lives and our hearts to God or to refuse his love and his blessings. If you don't want any part of Jesus Christ then he is willing to accept that decision since it was made by you through your own free will.
Our Lord did tell us that once we are saved, once we are looking to him for everything, once we have surrendered completely to him, then no one could snatch us away from him.
John 10:28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand."
So you can't be snatched way, but you sure can walk away.
There are a great many examples of this in the Bible but my favorite is in the book of Mark. It has to do with the story about the time Jesus arrived by boat to a town where he met a demon possessed man who was living in a graveyard. (You can read the entire story in Mark 5:1-21, and it is a great example of people exercising their free will and possibly putting their eternal salvation in jeopardy).
The Bible mentions that this demon possessed man was unusually fierce and dangerous, so much so that the townspeople could not even use the roads in fear that they would be harmed or even killed by this demon possessed man. The demons who resided in this man recognized Jesus and even talked with Jesus, and they knew that Jesus had the power to expel them from the man. So the demons seeing a herd of pigs in the distance, told Jesus that if he was going to expel them from this man, then would Jesus allow the demons to enter into the herd of pigs. So Jesus expelled the demons and the demons left the man and entered into the pigs. Suddenly the pigs realized something was terribly wrong and every single pig rushed over the cliff to their death. The pigs evidently realized that they would rather be dead than to have those demons living within them.
Now the pig herders saw all this happening and they went to the town and told everyone all the details. Verse 17 tells of the townspeople response. "Then the people began to beg Jesus to leave their area." So the response of the townspeople was to tell Jesus to get out of there because they were holding Jesus responsible for the destruction of a whole herd of pigs. They were furious at Jesus because of this economic loss. All that these people could do was to scream at him because they no longer had this herd of pigs. So you can see that the people's only concern was the economic loss of the pigs.
What is really interesting is Jesus's response.
Jesus didn't try to explain to the townspeople that they no longer had to worry about this very dangerous demon possessed man. That he was no longer a threat to their safety. Nor did Jesus ask them if they wanted to know why this formerly demon possessed man was now able to sit there quietly, fully dressed, and in his right state of mind. Nor did he try to tell them that if he could expel demons from this man, then just think of the demons that he could expel from the rest of the townspeople. Neither did Jesus ask the people if they wanted to find out more about this man who could expel demons or why he even did what he did, or why he even came there in the first place. And Jesus certainly didn't argue with the people that the price of the pigs was rather small compared to their peace of mind and their eternal future. Jesus didn't even ask these people if they wanted to learn about the one who sent him. Jesus didn't do any of these things because he could see that the only thing any of these people really cared about was the economic loss of the pigs. They had their minds all made up and money was the number one thing in their lives. They exerted their free will and told Jesus to leave town and leave town now. They had exercised their free will.
Using their own free will, those people wanted nothing to do with Jesus. Their only interest was in worldly things and because of that, they told Jesus to hit the road and go some place else and kill pigs. Jesus knew exactly what was in their hearts, and that their minds were closed to anything that Jesus had to say. So what did Jesus do? Jesus simply turned around, boarded the boat and proceeded across the water and went into his own city. Without a word, he simply turned and left, and very possibly took with him their eternal salvation.
John 15:1-2 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He removes every branch in me that bears no fruit. Every branch that bears fruit he prunes to make it bear more fruit".
John 15:6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch, and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned".
1 Corinthians 10:12 "Therefore let him who thinks he is standing, beware, that he does not fall".
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Edwin Muir on
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2 Pet 3.9;The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.(confession)
YET.
Is 24.6;Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.
Narrow or broad road our choice all the way every moment and Yes *His* grace is always sufficient if we can receive it.
Yea LR *He* is willing but we resist the grace so often.
Personally because of selfwill I have heard *FATHER* say "I could have lost You this morning." as I had been warned of the dangers of going that way but got emotionally caught in going that way anyway .
PRESUMPTION IS SIN.BEWARE.
IF WE CONFESS,THEN and only then the BLOOD avails.
HALLELU*JAH* WE KNOW *GOD* DELIGHTS IN MERCY WHEN WE ARE
PENITENT WHICH IS A GIFT OF GRACE ITSELF. -
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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on
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Edwin,
I am not sure I follow what you are saying fully, but using Is 24.6 is not applicable to us. We are talking about God's people, who were called by God. He chose you, you did not choose Him, you repented and believed and hence chose Him at that point willingly, but the process was started by Him and He will finish it.
Is 24.6 is referring to the people without God, but we are not a people without a good Father. Our father is good and will correct us.
Yes indeed we can resist His will and disobey, we unfortunately know that too well, but has The Spirit of the Lord not brought us to Repentance. How many times have you sinned since becoming a Christian? Maybe millions of times? Well has God been faithful to bring you to repentance?
Blessings beloved -
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Linda-
A person that has been regenerated/born again will repent. You see sis, the case for losing your salvation is built on fiction not fact. No real child of God can commit murder and not repent. The weight of the Holy Spirit will fall upon that person in such a way that we have testimony of people turning themselves in to the justice system. A child of God is no longer the same, thought they can still fall and do horrible things, their Master is able to make them stand.
We can be deter and discourage and neglect our great salvation, yet that does not mean we can lose such a great salvation what that means is that we will not enjoy the wonderful life in Christ we could have.
>>It is true that God can bring us into repentance after we have committed that offence but I believe we can resist the will of the Father with our own free will. I can resist the Father's prompting to repent, die and then what? Am I saved?
I am sure that all born again people die without asking for forgiveness of some sins they committed.
Who can discern his errors? Forgive my hidden faults. Psalm 19:12
Psalm 40:12 For troubles without number surround me; my sins have overtaken me, and I cannot see. They are more than the hairs of my head, and my heart fails within me
Sin is sin, though some sins carry deeper moral consequences and correction, sin is sin. We sin and don't even know at times. There is sin we do not confess and forget about, pride, arrogance, selfishness etc... And we will still be in heaven.
>>1Co 6:9-10 or do you not know that unjust ones will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be led astray, neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor male prostitutes, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous ones, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor plunderers shall inherit the kingdom of God.
A true child of God cannot be any of these things habitually for their entire life. If they fall into some of these things they will be miserable as millions of testimonies show. Here on AAG profile after profile tells of a people who were born again and then fell off for 20, 30, 40 years into a crazy life style, but God did not let them go. That is empirical evidence that is fact. I have never met one person tell me, God changed me, He was my all at one point, but I have lost my salvation, God has told me I lost my salvation. I met people who felled into sin and are being torture by that belief and need to be reassure that If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9
I do not believe that there is any human alive or ever existed that can resist God, if God wants something done. Oh He allows us to have our way, but God has already worked all our fits into His overall plan and more than that He turns them in to testimonies for His Glory. No human can resist God when God wants something done. He will strip you from everything you have to get His will to be done in your life. Millions can testify to that truth.
He will take everything from us, if He has to, to correct us, because this is but a vapor, He is concerned with eternity.
Yes indeed we can resist His will and disobey, we unfortunately know that too well, but has The Spirit of the Lord not brought us to Repentance. How many times have you sinned since becoming a Christian? Maybe millions of times? Well has God been faithful to bring you to repentance?
Blessings beloved -
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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on
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For those who believe that they can lose their salvation I have some questions:
1) When is a person saved?
2) Are you saved right now?
3) What is repentance and what takes place through repentance that leads to salvation?
4) When is a person born-again?
5) What happens to a person when they are born-again?
6) Can a person become unborn and dead in sin after being born-again?
7) Can a born-again person who becomes (if it could happen) dead in sin ever be born-again, again?
8) If they can be born-again, again ... how does that happen.
I am settled regardig my belief on this issue, but am curious as to what one who believes they can lose their salvtion believes regardging these important aspects of being saved.
Lord Bless,
LT
TheNET Coordinator -
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Permalink Reply by Carla on
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Hi Amanda,
Jude tells us about apostasy. Jude 1:4 tells out they were marked out for this condemnation. They were never saved in the first place. This is also confirmed in 1 John 2:19: “They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us”
Jud 1:3 Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the [fn] saints.
Jud 1:4 For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand [fn] marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
Jud 1:5 Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that [fn] the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, [fn] subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.
Jud 1:6 And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day,
Jud 1:7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after [fn] strange flesh, are exhibited as an [fn] example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.
Jud 1:8 Yet in the same way these men, also by dreaming, defile the flesh, and reject authority, and revile [fn] angelic majesties.
Jud 1:9 But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"
Jud 1:10 But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are [fn] destroyed.
Jud 1:11 Woe to them! For they have gone the way of Cain, and for pay [fn] they have rushed headlong into the error of Balaam, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.
Jud 1:12 These are the men who are [fn] hidden reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you without fear, caring for themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, [fn] doubly dead, uprooted;
Jud 1:13 wild waves of the sea, casting up their own [fn] shame like foam; wandering stars, for whom the [fn] black darkness has been reserved forever.
Jud 1:14 It was also about these men that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, "Behold, the Lord came with [fn] many thousands of His holy ones,
Jud 1:15 to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."
Jud 1:16 These are grumblers, finding fault, following after their own lusts; [fn] they speak arrogantly, flattering people for the sake of gaining an advantage.
Jud 1:17 But you, beloved, ought to remember the words that were spoken beforehand by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ,
Jud 1:18 that they were saying to you, "In the last time there will be mockers, following after their own ungodly lusts."
Jud 1:19 These are the ones who cause divisions, [fn] worldly-minded, [fn] devoid of the Spirit.
Here's an excellent article: http://www.gotquestions.org/apostasy.html -
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Some we know did not enter in through unbelief but many did and many after years of service and miracles;were covetous or simply were patted on the back and took a bit of the GLORY and deceived by insideous pride as in Heb 6. 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
As Judas & Demas and countless others who let the cares of this life etc.
Maybe the seed on the firm ground didn`t rake root but the rest did!
Lets not explain away the Merciful warning to take heed!
2 Pet 2.20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. -
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Edwin,
All the scriptures you are quoting here have been discussed and showed how they cannot be use to teach one can lose their salvation throughout this discussion. The Hebrew 6 has been explained in context multiple times in this discussion as well as the others. I would recommend you take the time to read through the discussion and then pray fully ask God to guide you to all truth. If any new concerns arise, please feel free to share them or if you think the interpretation of the verses is incorrect by all means show us how.
Love to you my brother. -
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Permalink Reply by RoyW on
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You can be close to something and still fall away from it. The Jews in Jesus' time are a prime example.
Ro 9:32-33
32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone." 33 As it is written:
"See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall,
and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame." NIV
They were so close they stumbled over it. Hope this helps but if not, I do not want to argue. -
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Ro 3:23-28
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. KJV
Propitiation is that which propitiates or satisfies all of God's demand required of us. Jesus is our propitiation. To put this on the level of works (my ability to live without sin) is to take away from His work and give us reason to boast. We have absolutely no cause for boasting in this thing. Jesus has done it all. I can do nothing but receive this gift that just keeps on giving. His blood is sufficient for all our sins.
Brothers and sisters, it does not matter what we do. We are His children and we will do all that He has required. One way or the other we are going to do. However, we can take no credit even for that which we do. We do because we belong to Him not in order for Him to keep us.
You that think you have the power to get away. Baloney. Your power is too insufficient when compared to His will. Do not enter into this new covenant with Him unless you are ready to lose your life for you no longer have power over your life once you do. Once that seal of His Spirit is given as has been mentioned on this forum, the deal is done. You do not have the power to break that seal. You made the deal. You belong to Him. He bought you with His blood. It is over. The price has been paid. You don't have enough money to get out of it. You came into this deal without anything and you remain without anything. Everything is Him. You struck the deal when you accepted His forgiveness. Now, you must live with that.
I am saved. I am saved. I am saved even from my wicked self. I have nothing. I cannot boast. However, I do have Him and thus I have everything.
Blessed be my God Who came from heaven to be my propitiation. My boasting is in Him and in Him alone. I do not take away from His work by saying me, me, me, me. I can do this. No, He is my victor. He is my conqueror. He has conquered me. I am His prize. He has granted me eternal life. I love Him more than anyone could ever imagine. He gets all of my praise. He gets it all. I was no good in the beginning and I am still no good with the exception of His righteous which has been credited to me.
I have the capability at any moment to fall but I will never fall away for I am in Him, now. We are locked in a covenant. This covenant was sealed with His blood by His Spirit. When He sees the blood, that is all that is needed. He doesn't need to look into that house to see how good that person is. He just needs to see the blood. There is power in that blood. It will save you from everything, even your wicked selves.
Blessed be His Name and blessed be His blood. Thank you Jesus.
Your child,
Roy -
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Family,
As a brother in the Lord and a minister of the Gospel I wil recommend the following:
Abstain from calling anyone a Calvinist or Arminian unless they call themselves that.
I think we all want to be known as bible believing Christians and not be defined by a title that brings so much controversy among us.
Blessings -
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