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WHAT IS ARMINIANISM AND CALVINISM
There is way too much useless confusion about these two schools of theology that have more in common than not.
These discussions will be done in an effort to clear up some misunderstanding so we can equip ourselves correctly.
I will give the basics and go a little deep into each system. Roger Olson has written a wonderful book detailing common misconceptions Calvinist hold about Arminians and there are many books also showing how Arminians misunderstand Reformed Theology.
Feel free to jump in.
These discussions will be done in an effort to clear up some misunderstanding so we can equip ourselves correctly.
I will give the basics and go a little deep into each system. Roger Olson has written a wonderful book detailing common misconceptions Calvinist hold about Arminians and there are many books also showing how Arminians misunderstand Reformed Theology.
Feel free to jump in.
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on
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Hey my friend,
>>There have been times when I've thought something to be right, felt it to be right, but decided against it for other reasons. I decided against my strongest inclinations.
I think Roy has done a wonderful job in my absence. Do forgive me for my late replies. I will only echo Roy here.
We labor the point of us choosing according to our strongest inclinations so much, because is important. If I believe that I have real free will then of course I am going to think that I can choose God freely apart from my inclinations and deadness of spirit. If I understand that my will is not free from my passions and strongest inclinations which are dead to sin, then I will understand that I need God to zap me alive first in order for me to see Him irresistible.
Do you agree with the definition of Free will we have presented?
I know you have already stated that your view of free will is in accordance with the external and internal influences in our lives and I have not read your other responses which I am going to read after I type this message, so ignore me if you deal with this issue with Roy later. You must believe in PREVENIENT GRACE beloved are you familiar with that term?
Blessings. -
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Permalink Reply by sojourner on
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Hi David.
Yes,I think we agree on what free-will is,and how it is restricted to internal and external factors.So our free-will is only free in the sense that we can choose according to the choices of which we are aware,determined by internal/external factors,of which may also include our sense of moral conscience.
What is described as 'strongest inclination' is the sum-total of all the various factors combined in making our choice,which is not,of necessity, determined by emotions alone.The emotions are simply another factor.
We are born dead in our sins,with no awareness of who God really is,no real sense of need for God,and no possible way to reconcile ourselves to God,even if we are in some way 'God conscious'.
God intervened to make us aware of our spiritual condition,of our great need for God,and that a way has been provided for us,Christ crucified,to once more be reconciled to God.
We who were once without hope,now have hope in Christ.God has revealed this hope to us,by the Spirit and the word,and offers to us his gift of life,through His gift of faith to us,by grace alone,to accept His gift.Christ crucified.
So then,we who were once dead in our sins,had our eyes opened,our understanding lighted and presented with a choice of either accepting or rejecting the Gift.
You ask if I'm familiar with the term 'prevenient grace'? Yes,and also that of irresistible grace.Do I believe in prevenient grace? Yes,but then,...so do you : )
Look forward to your reply,David.
God Bless bro.
Sojourner. -
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Permalink Reply by RoyW on
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Sojourner,
I think I am the one that mentioned to you prevenient grace (David may have also) and I can assure you that what you believe prevenient grace means and what he believes is not the same. Let me say it this way: IMHO. In case you haven't caught up with all us hip texters - that means "in my humble opinion." ha ha
Those who believe in prevenient grace believe it can be resisted. Those who believe in irresistible grace believe it cannot. I think you believe in a partial work of grace (please correct me if I am wrong) while I believe in a completed work of grace. When I say "partial" I don't mean to say that you believe there is anything lacking on God's part but that you have the power to accept that prevenient grace or the power to reject it.
However, that is not where we part company because we don't part company. We just disagree on that particular point. Is this correct?
(Sorry to butt in.)
Roy -
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Permalink Reply by Carla on
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Hi Roy,
forgive me for butting in here .. :)
you said this to Sojourner:
Those who believe in prevenient grace believe it can be resisted. Those who believe in irresistible grace believe it cannot. I think you believe in a partial work of grace (please correct me if I am wrong) while I believe in a completed work of grace. When I say "partial" I don't mean to say that you believe there is anything lacking on God's part but that you have the power to accept that prevenient grace or the power to reject it.
Since we are made in God's image...we have the ability to choose.. It has nothing to do with 'power'.. but choice. However, pride, which is the root of all sin does have a supreme 'power' over us...and if there is no 'repenting and believing' on our behalf...then that power maintains it's stronghold.
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I don't know what your conversion experience was like.. Personally mine was an instantious 'repent and believe scenario'.. and AT THE SAME TIME.. I realized I'm a sinner and I needed forgiveness and a Savior.. God didn't wait one iota of a second to save me once I realized my need for Him.. The saving came in the instant that I repented. Did God choose me prior to all this.. sure.. He also chose everyone else because HE desires for all to be saved.
I showed you earlier (scriptural references) in another reply where people have rejected God knowing who HE is.. Again, I repeat...it baffles me... But the power of pride baffles me as well.
Blessings, Carla
I wish I could stop responding to this discussion... I keep getting roped back in -
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Hi Roy.
Please,never be sorry for 'butting in' to my replies bro,as I enjoy our conversations : )
I thought my comment on prevenient grace might get some attention : ) Rather 'tongue in cheek' from me (my sense of humour may need looked at),however,I stand by the comment.
Prevenient grace is simply a definition of the grace that prepares us for salvation.Do we not all agree that we were led to the cross by grace?
Maybe a look at Wesley's definition will help:
Prevenient grace (preparing) grace.
Accepting grace (justifying) grace.
Sustaining grace (sanctifying) grace.
A good summary of how I view grace:
" We believe that the human race's creation in Godlikeness included ability to choose between right and wrong,and that thus human beings were made morally responsible;that through the Fall of Adam they became depraved so that they cannot now turn and prepare themselves by their own natural strength and works to faith and calling upon God.But we also believe that the grace of God through Jesus Christ,is freely bestowed upon all people,enabling all who will turn from sin to righteousness,believe on Jesus Christ for pardon and cleansing from sin,and follow good works pleasing and acceptable in His sight." (one of the 16 Articles,Nazerene Manual). Although I don't attend the above church,I do agree with the article.
Grace is never partial,as it is by His grace alone,are we in a position to receive His gift.Sola Scriptura,Sola Fide,Sola Gratia.Scripture alone,Faith alone,Grace alone.
Amen,Roy.Were having a good conversation about the word we love,in the spirit of brothers in Christ : )
God Bless,Roy.
Sojourner. -
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Hi Carla.
Please "keep getting roped in," as I really enjoy your comments,sister : ) -
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Carla,
Please explain to me how you choose to believe in something. If you take the attitude I need to believe in order to receive, can you then begin to receive?
Then once you believe how do you not believe? That is the area I struggle with. I either believe or I don't believe. Faith is not a choice. Faith is not something I can drum up. I can confess something until I am blue in the face but until I believe nothing will happen. It is not the confessing but the faith that saves. Confession is evidence or declaration of the faith. I can repent until I am blue in the face but until I believe I cannot be saved.
If someone can persuade me that I can choose to believe, you will have converted this old man to your position.
My position this day and for the last 33 years is that faith is a gift upon whom He freely bestows according to His good pleasure and will. I cannot think any less. I have thought about this for 33 years and cannot come up with a good definition for faith unless it is a gift. Then, if you truly believe something, how can you choose not to believe that?
Praise the Lord.
Roy -
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Hi Roy,
I'm gonna go prune a tree (the red japenese maple in the front yard is growing way out of control) and have a talk with the Lord.. I'll talk to you tomorrow about this. blessings, Carla -
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Sojourner,
Wow! No one has ever told me that I have sweet spirit. Maybe if I would just say nice things. I can't tell you what all names I have been called. I was talking to a very nice gentleman the other day about certain things and he told me that my talking to him just made matters worse. He felt he would be better off if I would just quit talking to him. Oh well. Some guys have all the luck. I better be careful, David will get on to me for using the word "luck." I used the word "chance" the other day and I got a page long response from him.
O well, this is a good conversation.
Roy -
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Lol! It's a first for me,but hey,if the cap fits : ) By nature I'm very competitive,and so enjoy a challenge,and have also been called things not edifying : ( Sometimes deserved.Praise God for His abiding love and grace!
Good luc..um..I mean,God bless,bro : ) -
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Hahaha Roy,
You are too cool -You got a page long response for using the word chance hahaaha Well when you give me those opportunities, I jump on them. haha Luck is in the bible, but watch it. hehe
Love to you. -
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