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Are We Dispensationalists or covenant believers?
For those that are interested in an in depth discussion about dispensationalism and the couple other options out there, jump on in. I know Roy wanted to discuss it; I am just leaving it out in the open for others that want to join in and help us work this through.
For those that haven’t looked into this subject let me say it is a big subject. It deals with the overall theological grid we interpret scripture from. It is basically a system of hermeneutics (the system that helps us interpret scripture). I know of 3 main choices on the market and maybe 4.
1. Dispensationalism
2. Covenant theology
3. Progressive dispensationalism
4. (maybe) preterism- also called "realized eschatology" (not sure if this is in the same category, but as I read a bit on this it has a hermeneutic all to itself as does dispensationalism, so I think it is one of the "big systems" on the market for interpreting the old and new testament writings)
Dispensationalism is the system that has given rise to such doctrines as a 7 year tribulation, rebuilt temple, pre-trib (and any-trib) rapture. These I think are accepted by most people in my beloved Pentecostal family.Dispensationalism confused me because using dispensationalism hermeneutics, if done honestly and consistently, leads to some things that are clearly not normative. For example, if we hold to normative dispensationalism we must believe that the kingdom of God has not come in any form, even partially, at this point in history. We must believe that the new covenant has not begun and wont until the millennium in which it will be exclusively for Jews according to the flesh. Now I can’t imagine anyone saying the kingdom didn’t come at least in part with Jesus first coming and that the new covenant is not for the church, or even for this age!!!
Here I just want to start the ball rolling and from there we can jump into the details as they come up. I need your help; I am no expert in the subject. I expect new tangents to come up. Hope others will throw in their ideas on this, but if not I hope at least our discussion won’t be a nuisance. It will get a bit technical and so might bore many, feel free to ignore our posts on the subject!
Anyone out there interested here are some questions to jump-start things. Answer some of these questions from your perspective. You don’t have to do all of them, just pick one you think is important to you. Or just ask a new one and answer it!! Anything will do!!!
1. Why do you think this is an important subject? What issues are at stake when dealing with dispensationalism or other systems on the market?
2. Do we have to have a system, or can we "just stick with the bible”?
3. Can we just pick and choose from different systems and still be consistent?
4. Do you think dispensationalists or covenant theology is right? :)
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on
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Excellent post fellow co-worker in the faith. There is nothing for me to add here except a big Amen and Amen and Praise God for everything good comes from above.
"Should Christians discuss doctrines?" Or maybe, "Just how important is my worldview?"
Those would make great discussions. Coming soon to the theater near you hahhaha
Feel free to get us going as well beloved.
:) Love you!
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Permalink Reply by The Shearer. on
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Thanks David for the imput ,and I find the discussion very interesting ,when I really start looking into it a bit ,but then I think whoa ,I could spend all of my waking hours doin this sort of thing, and with my life style ,family ,work and every day things to be done ,balance is the key .I guess God has different purposes for each of us and as long as we include Him in everything we do ,then it dont really matter cause when we realise that as christians we are 100% righteous and we carry His spirit with us,we will be all together in His kingdom ,anyway!!! . I am happy with my walk ,and I just want to show others that God hasn't made it too difficult for me to get to where I am (I better rephrase that and say any difficulties probably came from me anyway,haha),and it can be the same for them too. All they need to do is start seeking and ask for guidance .I like being out there trying my best to set a good example and maybe help people to keep looking in the right places .Like you ,i live in the world and by insulating ourselves with the power of the Spirit, we can know thankfully that we arent any part of it (the world).I think that as long as we are doing His Word and not just reading it ,then we cant go too far wrong ,............many blessings to you bro,and keep on shinin on.....very humbly,,.Andrew., P.S. I might even see if I can get a hold of Mr Sprouls book ,titled Scripture Alone ,just for a look see .
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Permalink Reply by RoyW on
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Shearer,
You are a vital and valuable asset in the Kingdom. What you are doing is so necessary. You are out there rubbing elbows with the lost. God bless you. Bring them in, brother. Let God use you by His power to reach those who are hurting. God bless you. You say you are 100% righteous. You have an excellent understanding. You know you are nothing and that Christ is everything. You have the message for a hurting world. You are out there pointing lost souls to Christ. That is the highest calling of all.
Bless you brother,
Roy
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Andrew -
You have spoken so wisely my bro; I could give you a big hug man. We are one body with many different parts. Much of the conflicts between the body of Christ come from not understanding that simple truth. You have grasped it and that is wise. We are members of the same body with different callings. In the body of Christ none of us is greater than another member. Each one of us is essential. God has a purpose for your life and a purpose for mine and when we understand that simple truth without thinking more highly than what we ought to think of ourselves, we can enjoy our diversity.
The book would bless you if you get it. It will give you some basic but essential methods to keep in mind to rightly divide the word of God.
Blessings bro.
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-PREmillenialism (pre=before) states that jesus will come back before the "1,000 year reign" on earth.
(there are different forms of this position. the two most prevalent are "dispensationsalist premillenialism" the most popular at present. it began with the plymoth brethren in the early 1800's, i beleive. there is also "historic premillenialism". they use the term "historic" to mean that they are teaching what the eartly church fathers believed. George eldon ladd was a great defender of this position in the 1950's i believe.)
-Amillenialism (A=none) says that there is no "literal" 1,000 year reign, but that the passage in revelations about the millenium is talking abou the time between chirst first coming and his second coming, i.e. the church age.
-POSTmillenialism (post=after) says that Christ will come back after the millenium. they believe that the gospel will spread throughout the world and the world will be "christianized". aftte a long time of peace, then christ will return.
Amillenialism, Post-Millenialism and Pre-Millenialism, what do you think of them and why do you believe the position you beleive?
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Bro. David,
I am on record as a premillennialist. I have stated and given reasons why I believe in this position but here is one that we haven't touched on yet. That is the method of God in fulfilling prophecy. The a and postmillennial has created a system of interpreting prophecy fulfillment as mostly allegorical. I think those that have addressed this (and I so hope they stay with the discussion) subject have made statements similar to this: "I am just going to stick with the Bible." I completely agree with the statement. I am understanding that person to be saying that they will just let the Bible say what it is saying. That being the case, they are probably a dispensational premillennialist.
Why is it important to just let the Bible say what it is saying? If I create a system that requires someone to explain what God is saying, it takes the Bible out of the hands of the believer and puts it in the hands of a teacher, priest, pastor, etc. or one that has spent many years or maybe decades developing his system of interpretation. When one reads the Old Testament he reads of a promised Messiah. Jesus Christ literally fulfilled all of those Old Testament promises (some He will fulfill in the future.) When a believer reads in Ps 22 "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? - or ...they have pierced my hands and feet," we have no problem relating these prophecies to Jesus on the cross. Jesus literally gloriously fulfilled these prophecies.
Now, let me put out another prophecy: Zech 14:8-15
Zech 14:8-11 On that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half to the eastern sea and half to the western sea, in summer and in winter.
9 The LORD will be king over the whole earth. On that day there will be one LORD, and his name the only name.
10 The whole land, from Geba to Rimmon, south of Jerusalem, will become like the Arabah. But Jerusalem will be raised up and remain in its place, from the Benjamin Gate to the site of the First Gate, to the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the royal winepresses. 11 It will be inhabited; never again will it be destroyed. Jerusalem will be secure. NIV
Most of you (maybe all of you) read these verses with me and say, "Yes, there is coming a day when Jesus shall place His foot on the Mt. of Olives (beginning of the chapter) and split that mountain in two. Two rivers will flow from that mountain - one to the eastern sea and the other to the western. We immediately recognize this passage referring to the time when Jesus will physically come to this earth and establish His Kingdom over the whole earth. There will only be one Lord and that will be Jesus. All must submit to Him or suffer severe consequences.
Now, let's look at an alternate interpretation from the biblical scholar Matthew Henry:
It was the honour of Jerusalem that thence the word of the Lord went forth (Isa 2:3); and thus far, even in its worst and most degenerate age, for old acquaintance-sake, it was made a blessing, and to be so is to be blessed. Half of these waters shall go towards the former sea and half towards the hinder sea, as all rivers bend their course towards some sea or other, some eastward, others westward. The gospel shall spread into all parts of the world, into some that lie remote from Jerusalem one way and others that lie as far off another way; for the dominion of the Redeemer, which was thereby to be set up, must be from sea to sea (Ps 72:8), and the earth must be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea, and as the waters that in various channels run to the sea. The knowledge of God shall diffuse itself,
(from Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible: New Modern Edition, Electronic Database. Copyright © 1991 by Hendrickson Publishers, Inc.)
Do you see the difference? Through the study of these systems we are now better prepared to read and interpret Scripture. Even though sometime we don't realize we have a system, we do. And that system helps us interpret the Scripture.
I am with those that say - just let the Bible say what it is saying. The Bible was written to me and not to some great learned scholar that I need to read to understand what the Bible is saying. I am not saying we shouldn't read books by learned scholars. I am saying that God wrote this Book to us and He intended for us to be able to understand what He is saying. The simplest view is undoubtedly the premiillennial view. I am convinced that when one reads the whole Bible cover to cover, without the help of scholars, this is the view he will get. That is why I really believe in this interpretation. God wrote me a letter (a pretty long one). He wanted me to have some information about His plan for my life. Thank you, Father.
Will the church become the dominant force in our world today and make everything get better and better until Jesus returns? That is certainly not how I read the Bible. The Bible tells me that things are going to get worse and worse until He returns. However, the church will advance mightily and become God's agent for gaining those souls He has called to be His own. This is the age of the church.
Bro. David, you are doing a wonderful work. You are helping us understand who we are and helping us become a more informed witness for His purpose.
Still learning,
Roy
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I better correct something before I get jumped on. I said:
That being the case, they are probably a dispensational premillennialist.
I should further explain that as saying in the area of eschatology which I am presenting, they are probably a dispensational premillennialist. I also have some problems with complete dispensationalism. However, when it comes to eschatology, I side with this view.
Roy
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Roy,
Praise God beloved, thank you for your kind words and I am learning along with everyone else that is participating here. I do agree with your post above and I align myself with the Premillennnial view for the same reasons you have stated in your posts about the subject.
Blessings
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David,
Earlier, LT made a statement on another forum speaking of How Much of the Old Testament should we get rid of. He said our discussions had to do with the understanding of these systems. I agree with him. When it comes to eschatology, I am a premillennialist. However, when it comes to our present relationship with Christ I am more of what they might identify as a New Covenant Theology person. I think it is a shame that so much of the church have failed to understand that we are at present under a completely different system. Forgive me for jumping ahead and I know I am but I am very excited to get to the part of the New Covenant. Just the thought of someone finding freedom in Christ thrills me. Reading all the posts reminded me of just how much bondage the church is under. I do think in this area, the dispensationalists have done a disfavor to the church. I am literally hearing ideas like "as long as we do our best" or "we can now obey the law since we have Jesus Christ in our lives" etc.
I think the advancement of dispensational theology over the last few hundred years has helped us to identify the future Kingdom but done a poor job of helping us to understand who we are in Christ.
For me, amillennialism or post millennialism don't begin to explain 2010 to me. As for the New Covenant introduced by Christ with the cup as the blood of the New Covenant is as real to me today as it was that day. That blood has cleansed me eternally of all my sin.
Complete in Him,
Roy
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Kneeling BR Jesus,
Historic pre-millennialism has to do with the early church writers such as Polycarp who believed that Christ would return before the millennial reign of Christ here on this earth. The possible distinction between them and others coming later could possibly be their understanding that Christ would return after the tribulation rather than before. However, the main thrust of the teaching of premillennialism has to do with the idea that Christ will come back to set up His Kingdom not after the Kingdom had been set up.
The seventh day movement had a heavy concentration on the coming of the Lord. They are premillennialists. Several times they attached a date to the event. When the days would come and go, there would be great disappointment. However, the movement did survive due to a teaching concerning the continuance of observing the seventh day from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday. Since many people did feel the need to continue this observance (It is one of the Ten Commandments) the seventh day church survived and even flourished. I do believe there was confusion in the early church concerning the Sabbath but Paul made it very clear that the New Testament Church was not to feel the necessity of observing the seventh day as a Sabbath. Note:
Col 2:16-17 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day . 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. NIV
God bless you,
Roy
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Kneeling,
I have been there myself at one time. I'm not so sure that at this point I believe He will come before the very final days of the tribulation. However, these are very minor differences and should not be put on the same level as the differences in the millennial understandings. The ones that become so determined in their view, I think, are some that hold to the pretrib view. Some will even say that you have left Christ if you don't hold to that view. The view is nothing more than a slight variation from the other views and should be considered such.
Roy
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Let me throw up the tenets of the Hermeneutical system I align with more closely (PD) and give the tenets of covenant Theology in a future post. I will only make brief notes. By no means is this an extensive break down.
Roy I am not sure if you are saying above that you align more closely with the New Covenant Theology for your hermeneutical system. If you are saying that would you do me a fav and throw up the tenets of that system since I am not too hip to it, please. :)
Progressive Disp. -
1. The Kingdom of God is the unifying theme of biblical history.
2. Within biblical history there are four dispensational eras.
(note: classic disp. has 7 dispensations usually- im not sure how important this is)
3. Christ has already inaugurated the Davidic reign in heaven at the right hand of the Father, which equals the throne of David, though He does not yet reign as Davidic king on earth during the Millennium.
4. The New Covenant has already been inaugurated, though its blessings are not yet fully realized until the Millennium.
5. The concept of the church as completely distinct from Israel and as a mystery unrevealed in the Old Testament needs revising, making the idea of two purposes and two peoples of God invalid. (classic disp. I think says the church was not gods original plan and is not found anywhere in the old tesatment- it was god's plan B. PD says that it was mentioned in the old testament and was in God's original plan. PD only holds to one "plan of salvation" not two like classic disp. PD hold that all are "saved by grace through faith"- classic disp. would say that two, but i dont think they mean quite the same thing)
6. A complementary hermeneutic must be used alongside a literal hermeneutic. This means that the New Testament makes complementary changes to the Old Testament promises without jettisoning those original promises.
(i tried to demonstrate this in the "reply" about jerimiah 31)
7. The one divine plan of holistic redemption encompasses all people and all areas of human life.
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