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Military life
My oldest son has recently come to me and told me that he plans on joining the Army next year when he turns 18 in January. This breaks my heart. Not only because we live in a world that seems to be in constant war right now but because I know I did not raise my son to "kill" another human. The turmoil that this has caused me. I worry that if he does go to war and is involved in the killing of another person, where will his place in Heaven be. How, as a mother, do you accept this. He wants me to be proud of his decision but I just can not find it in myself. Please, if any one has gone through something similar or is in the Army themselves, please any advice would be greatly appreciated.
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on
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Rachell,
It is completely fine for Christians to be part of the Arm forces and kill in battle. Unfortunately more often than not the cost of freedom is blood. It has been that way since the fall and it will continue to be that way until the Second coming.
I would have no problem fighting for freedom if it came down to it. Killing a man in combat is not murder. God has always used Nations to pass judgment over other Nations. Many times against the Nation of Israel. So your son joining the Arm forces is a noble effort.
Our freedom was paid for by the blood of Jesus.
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Hey Rachell,
Me again :) I read my first response to you this morning and I realized that even though it is accurate, it is pretty crude. So let me try again my sister.
A mother's love is the closes we human's experience to the sacrificial love God exemplifies. So I can only imagine the torturous thought the enemy must place in your mind when you think of your kid joining at this particular tumulus times.
However sis, this is where and when we shine. You are a child of God. Is your boy a Godly man? Is he born again? Well if he is not, then I would pray and do all I can for him to be saved, but if he is a child of God, then sis, his life is the Lord's. Actually all souls belong to the Lord. If he is a child of God though, then he is a child of God and you must rest in the knowledge that his life is in God's hand.
Today his life is in God's hand. Going to war increases the risk of getting shot but his life is in the hands of the one that gave it. Today you, he and me may step out the house and not comeback and go home to the Father.
Show your son you believe these truths. Give him confidence in the goodness of God. I have family in both the Navy and Army and I am proud of them. Willing to fight for freedom. Yeah, I know some think now these days we fight for oil etc... but that is besides the point when it comes to soldiers obeying orders. Everyman will give an account for his thoughts and actions.
My Lord blesses you and strengthens you my sister. :) God bless the Armed Forces.
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Permalink Reply by crajfort on
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Thank you so much David, your words were comforting. My son has not yet turned his life to Jesus and I do pray every day that happens for him. When I read what you said about the thoughts being placed in my head by the enemy, you are right. I know that I fight an every day battle as he has tried so hard in the past two years to destroy my family but we have triumphed against him. I just pray thats not what is happening with my son and that the thoughts of joining the military are for good and not for evil.
As a mom, you try and do everything you possibly can to protect your child and I know that all I have to offer once he leaves for the military is prayer and to trust in God that he will bring him home to me.
Thank you again David.
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Permalink Reply by Becka on
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my husband is in the army and my brother was but just got out. a lot of christians in the army ask that question.. what the pastors in the army tell them that God said not to murder, which means to plan to kill someone.. not kill, which is to kill someone but in self deffence. think about it.. if you were walking down the street and got attacked and your life was threatened and you killed that person do you really think that God would hold that against you? its the same thing in the army.. its not murder its self deffence. i do however completely understand why you would be worried about your son joining up. my husband is currently deployed to iraq for the 3rd time since we've been together and it is very scarey but you have to have FAITH that God will take care of him. think of it this way.. if God wanted to call him home would it really matter if he was at war or walking down the street? trust in God and have faith.. all will work out! God bless your son for wanting to defend his country!!
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Permalink Reply by Name Withheld on
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>> what the pastors in the army tell them that God said not
>> to murder, which means to plan to kill someone
What chaplains say and what the Bible says are two different things. Chaplains obviously have a conflict of interest, for they would not be allowed to "minister" if they told soldiers that killing Iraqis, Afghanis, and other "freedom fighters" in foreign battles was murder. Nazi chaplains were telling the German soldiers the very same thing during World War II.
Second, "murder" is an English legal term, and what constitutes "murder" in one country can be totally legal in another. Take abortion and euthanasia for example. Today in America abortion is legal in all fifty states, but in El Salvador and Malta abortion is illegal. In the U.S., euthanasia is illegal. But in Belgium and the Netherlands, euthanasia is legal. Murder is defined differently from region to region.
God is not an English lawyer, however. To understand what "Thou shalt not kill" means you need to learn a bit of Hebrew and use a concordance. If you did, you would see that your next statement as false.
>> if you were walking down the street and got attacked and your life was
>> threatened and you killed that person do you really think that God would
>> hold that against you?
You may wish to read the Bible rather than make "guesses" at what God would "really think". For example, from Exodus 22:2-3:
If a thief is caught in the act of breaking into a house and is killed in the process, the person who killed the thief is not guilty. But if it happens in daylight, the one who killed the thief is guilty of murder.
According to Mosaic law, if a victim defends his property during daylight hours and does so in a manner that results in the death of the intruder, the victim defender is now deemed to be a murderer.
Basically the only Biblical case for killing another person is if:
a) That person has violated one of God's laws in which death was given as the punishment
or
b) That person had killed someone else, and "the avenger of blood" is bringing to justice the slayer of the deceased. See Genesis 9:6.
Army soldiers do not fall into either camp (a) or camp (b), however.
All of this is based upon the Bible.
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Question: "What does the Bible say about war?"
Answer: Many people make the mistake of reading what the Bible says in Exodus 20:13, “You shall not kill,” and then seeking to apply this command to war. However, the Hebrew word literally means “the intentional, premeditated killing of another person with malice; murder.” God often ordered the Israelites to go to war with other nations (1 Samuel 15:3; Joshua 4:13). God ordered the death penalty for numerous crimes (Exodus 21:12, 15; 22:19; Leviticus 20:11). So, God is not against killing in all circumstances, but only murder. War is never a good thing, but sometimes it is a necessary thing. In a world filled with sinful people (Romans 3:10-18), war is inevitable. Sometimes the only way to keep sinful people from doing great harm to the innocent is by going to war.
In the Old Testament, God ordered the Israelites to “take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites” (Numbers 31:2). Deuteronomy 20:16-17 declares, “However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them…as the LORD your God has commanded you.” Also, 1 Samuel 15:18 says, “Go and completely destroy those wicked people, the Amalekites; make war on them until you have wiped them out.” Obviously God is not against all war. Jesus is always in perfect agreement with the Father (John 10:30), so we cannot argue that war was only God’s will in the Old Testament. God does not change (Malachi 3:6; James 1:17).
Jesus’ second coming will be exceedingly violent. Revelation 19:11-21 describes the ultimate war with Christ, the conquering commander who judges and makes war “with justice” (v. 11). It’s going to be bloody (v. 13) and gory. The birds will eat the flesh of all those who oppose Him (v. 17-18). He has no compassion upon His enemies, whom He will conquer completely and consign to a “fiery lake of burning sulfur” (v. 20).
It is an error to say that God never supports a war. Jesus is not a pacifist. In a world filled with evil people, sometimes war is necessary to prevent even greater evil. If Hitler had not been defeated by World War II, how many more millions would have been killed? If the American Civil War had not been fought, how much longer would African-Americans have had to suffer as slaves?
War is a terrible thing. Some wars are more “just” than others, but war is always the result of sin (Romans 3:10-18). At the same time, Ecclesiastes 3:8 declares, “There is…a time to love and a time to hate, a time for war and a time for peace.” In a world filled with sin, hatred, and evil (Romans 3:10-18), war is inevitable. Christians should not desire war, but neither are Christians to oppose the government God has placed in authority over them (Romans 13:1-4; 1 Peter 2:17). The most important thing we can be doing in a time of war is to be praying for godly wisdom for our leaders, praying for the safety of our military, praying for quick resolution to conflicts, and praying for a minimum of casualties among civilians on both sides (Philippians 4:6-7).
http://www.gotquestions.org/war-bible.html
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To David Velasquez,
It would be best if you actually studied the topic for yourself, rather than copy and paste a FAQ from some web site. It is clear that you simply hunted online for an article that advocated your point of view, without carefully analyzing the accuracy of its claims.
The very first statement in your "copied and pasted material" is easily proven false. Here is the claim:
"However, the Hebrew word literally means “the intentional, premeditated killing of another person with malice; murder.”"
The Hebrew word in question is 'rtsh'.
You will find this word in Proverbs 22:13:
The lazy person is full of excuses, saying, “If I go outside, I might meet a lion in the street and be rtsh!
So, if your expert from who you copied and pasted your response is correct, then lions are guilty of committing murder (rtsh). Which is of course, ridiculous. Clearly your source's definition of rtsh = "premeditated killing" is flawed. You can also see this in the "city of refuge" passages in the Old Testament.
In these “cities of refuge” passages we find rtsh applied many times as a noun to describe the person who accidentally kills another person. In the verb form rtsh appears three times. First in Deuteronomy 4:42 to describe the deed of a person who killed without intent and without hate, next in Numbers 35:27 to describe the avenger of blood who gets a window of opportunity to “kill the killer” after the killer has been acquitted of premeditated killing, and lastly, in Numbers 35:30 to describe the capital punishment penalty exacted upon the guilty. In each case the Hebrew word rtsh in its verb form has been used to describe the deadly deeds, yet in no way can these acts be described accurately using the English word “murder.” Quite simply, your "source" doesn't know what he is talking about.
>> Jesus’ second coming will be exceedingly violent.
That's totally irrelevant to the life of a Christian TODAY. What Christ will do at the end of the age does not give Christians the authority to kill and fight today.
>> Ecclesiastes 3:8 declares, “There is…a time to love and a time to
>> hate, a time for war
Christians are disciples of Jesus Christ, not disciples of Solomon (the author of Ecclesiastes). Sure, those who "know not Christ" will create "times to hate, and times for war." But that doesn't excuse Christians from their obligation to imitate and follow Christ.
>> Obviously God is not against all war.
That is not in question. The only wars in which God's servants are to fight and kill in are those that they have been specifically ordered to fight in. This is what you see in the Old Testament when God instructs His children to "wipe out the Amalekites". However, Christians living in America are not the children of Israel, nor have Christians been ordered by God to wipe out or kill any people. When God says to me, "fight and kill," then I will "fight and kill." But until then, Christians are to "put away the sword," as Jesus commanded. Yes, Jesus may one day in the future unsheathe the sword against his enemies, and he may call upon the redeemed to assist. But that day has not yet arrived, so in the interim Christians are to suffer for righteousness sake, and if necessary, be killed for the sake of bearing witness to the Truth.
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Name withheld:
You know nothing about me or how much biblical knowledge I have or whether I have study the subject in depth or not, so your assumptions speak about what kind of individual you are. I am not here to blast anyone or to win arguments. Your knowledge of the subject does not impress me at all and your approach to a fellow believer is less impressive. I appreciate your zeal, but would ask that you do not murder the character of your family members, of course assuming you are born again.
By God's grace and for His glory I am capable of giving a personal and cogent response to the issue being discuss, but I need to know we can do this in love and in a healthy exchange. If not we are doing nothing worthwhile. If arguing scripture is what you are here to do I will not exchange with you. If you want to discuss the issue understanding that "1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.
My Lord bless you my friend.
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David,
Could you tell us how much time you have spent studying the meaning of the Hebrew word "rtsh"? If you know so much about the topic at hand, then why did you have to copy and paste someone else's article rather than share with us firsthand your knowledge of the topic?
>> You know nothing about me
What I do know is that you copied and pasted a response from someone other than yourself -- a view that you approve of -- and that has many false statements in it.
>> Your knowledge of the subject does not impress me at all
You did not bother to refute a single point I made.
>> and your approach to a fellow believer is less impressive.
You pasted a FAQ from another site, and then you get offended when I state openly that you have not studied the topic in depth (which is clear by your failure to detect the flaws in the material you posted). For this I become your enemy?
>> If arguing scripture is what you are here to do
I am stating facts.
>> I...would ask that you do not murder the character
>> of your family members
Could you please quote my words in which I "murder the character of your family members"?
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>> Murder or kill is the word you should be looking at.
David,
The HEBREW WORD "RTSH" is the word that you should be looking at, not English words. The Bible was not written in English.
Nor is copying a definition from a concordance the equivalent of a thorough Bible study on the word.
I have already given you 5 examples in the Old Testament where "Strong's Number H7523" is not "premeditated killing." Look up Proverbs 22:13 and you will find this H7523. Then ask yourself, do lions "murder"? The answer is no. They "kill". Reread my response regarding the cities of refuge. Accidental killing is described as RTSH (H7523).
The NIV version is incorrect in its rendering of RTSH as "murder" in the 6th commandment. I can give you 14 English translations that render the 6th commandment as "Thou shalt not kill" as opposed to "murder".
With respect to why so many "newer" translations have "murder" instead of "kill", consider the following quote:
"The melding of evangelicalism, patriotism, and militarism was one factor that led to the easy acceptance of the change in the translation of the sixth commandment." —WILMA ANN BAILEY (I'd recommend that you purchase her book at Amazon if you really want to understand the issue at hand).
In a sense this "kill" versus "murder" debate of the 6th commandment is rather moot. No matter how you wish to translate the word rtsh, a human can only take the life of another human by direct or indirect command from the Almighty. It makes no difference what you want to call it—be it murder, killing or warfare—you are prohibited from taking the life of one created in the image of God unless explicitly instructed by the Word of God to do otherwise. Read Genesis 9:6...
Whoever sheds man’s blood,
By man his blood shall be shed;
For in the image of God He made man.
The only exception in the Bible would be those instances where either a) God commanded his servants to kill, or b) His law prescribed death as a punishment.
So I fail to see what you are arguing about or what your point is, David.
Not one of this nation's soldiers are carrying out a) or b).
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I would have been thankful to my Lord and to you for a response that exhibit that you are not just into arguing scripture. You chose to ignore my suggestion / statement (I need to know we can do this in love and in a healthy exchange) and did not comment on what to me is of the most importance in order to proceed with you. That tells me a bit more about you since you have not chosen to bless us with a little back ground or name on your profile.
Are you a born again believer? You like to ask lots of questions, so I hope you can indulge me with the most simple one I have asked.
Do you use the New Testament or just the Old Testament to make your case?
>>Could you tell us how much time you have spent studying the meaning of the Hebrew word "rtsh"? If you know so much about the topic at hand, then why did you have to copy and paste someone else's article rather than share with us firsthand your knowledge of the topic?
No, I will not tell you. I am not in the habit of letting my left hand know what my right hand does for the kingdom and Glory of my Lord. Studying his word is not an alm, but I still like to practice the principal. This is a very basic topic, one that any bible believing Christian should be able to handle without a sweat. We are to be able to give an answer to those that ask and since this is one of those questions that a Christian confronts many times in their walk is not hard to speak on it. But I am not into showing off or competing with anyone on who knows more or who has study more. The fact that you ask me that tells me a bit more about you. As you can tell, I have no problem getting to the point of the matter as I feel led by the Spirit, so I am not against questions, but I am against silly arguments that will start divisions and give a bad testimony.
This forum is about learning, & sharing, and it is driven out of a desire to help people to think by opening their minds to diverse views, learning from history, wrestling with difficult issues, and graciously engaging with others. Always keeping the main purpose in mind - Growing in His grace/love.
My desire here is to engage in Irenic (peaceful) Theology, and not Polemic (War like) Theology. I can actually do both and enjoy both, but with an understanding that above all else, let us love one another. I do not know you, so I will not assume anything, but I do get a sense that you rather enjoy the Polemic more than the Irenic and please feel free to correct me or say otherwise. I have no problem with people being direct, but I will ask another question here. Your profile gives no specifics about you, so what is your purpose of being among us and why no name?
>>What I do know is that you copied and pasted a response from someone other than yourself -- a view that you approve of -- and that has many false statements in it.
I disagree with you there are not many false statements and I can have a great time learning and sharing why I disagree, but what kind of discussion do you want. One in love or one that is all about intellectual stimulation only?
>>You did not bother to refute a single point I made.
No and I will not, thou I can easily debunk your erroneous understanding, but again answer my questions. Are you born again and do you want to discuss this in love or?
>>I am stating facts.
Well facts according to your understanding.
>>Could you please quote my words in which I "murder the character of your family members"?
Are my family members, your family members too?
It is clear that you simply hunted online for an article that advocated your point of view, without carefully analyzing the accuracy of its claims.
How do you know I did not carefully analyze the accuracy of its claims? You do not know me. You don't know if I did or if I did not. If I did not analyze it as you claimed (hence murdering my character) that would make me negligent, which is what you are assuming.
My Lord bless you
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>> How do you know I did not carefully analyze the
>> accuracy of its claims?
David,
I've already proven twice that the statement about RTSH = "premeditated killing" is false. If you in fact carefully analyzed the accuracy of the "copied and pasted" article, then please explain how you missed this defect?
>> Do you use the New Testament or just the Old
>> Testament to make your case?
Yes, I use the New Testament. I would be interested to see how you use the New Testament to prove that Genesis 9:6 has been overturned. I will be interested to see how you will use Jesus' teachings to prove that Christians are now permitted to kill members of the human race just because Caesar pays them to do so.
>> Your profile gives no specifics about you
It makes no difference who I am. Some people prefer to remain anonymous. Truth is truth, regardless of whether it is coming from a total unnamed stranger or whether it comes from your best friend.
>> I disagree with you there are not many false
>> statements
Let me count just a few of the many falsehoods and faulty reasonings from the article you copied:
1) RTSH does not = "premeditated killing," for Lions commit RTSH; accidental killings are called RTSH; capital punishment is called RTSH.
2) The article says, "Jesus’ second coming will be exceedingly violent." - This is irrelevant to the topic of humans killing other humans. As I've already stated, what Jesus does at the end of the age in the final judgment does not give Christians, or anyone for that matter, the authority to kill other humans today.
3) The article says, "Jesus is not a pacifist". One of the American Heritage Dictionary definitions for "pacifism" is "opposition demonstrated by refusal to participate in military action". With this in mind, open the New Testament to Matthew 24:15-20 where you will find Jesus instructing his diciples to flee rather than fight when Jerusalem is surrounded by Roman armies. Jesus instructions to his disciples qualifies as "pacifism" according to an English dictionary, ergo, Jesus is a pacifist. What Jesus will do at the end of the age does not change the actions of Christians today or negate the fact that his teachings and his example are pacifist with respect to war. By the way, John Howard Yoder's book "Nevertheless" describes 27 different varieties of pacifism. Anyone who makes a blanket "Jesus is not a pacifist" statement makes it clear they haven't studied that topic either.
>> I can easily debunk your erroneous understanding
Then please do so. So far 70% of your posts are in the vein of "Who are you? What are your motives? I want you to speak in love. Are you born again? No, I will not tell you how much I've studied this topic. I can easily debunk your position. I don't like your tone. You don't know my mind. Hahaha you're funny." The remaining 30% is copy and paste from another web site or from an electronic Bible.
>> I do get a sense that you rather enjoy
>> the Polemic
I enjoy the truth.
>> The fact that you ask me that tells me a bit
>> more about you.
It only tells you that I do not find copy and pasting from secondary sources as proof that the party doing the copying and pasting has studied the topic in depth. Asking you about your knowledge of the topic is a reasonable request when you consider that so far your defense of the actual Scriptural points being discussed have been "copy and paste" replies. Yes, I could be wrong about your knowledge of the subject. But you haven't shown any indication that my original assessment of your actions is incorrect. If asking you to "show me the beef" is equivalent to "murdering your character," then I apologize for this transgression.
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