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Is Obedience to God necessary for salvation?
I like to read all the replies here, they are very insightful and thoughtful.
The reason for this question, is that I've read more than one reply that states that there is nothing left for us to do regarding salvation. Is this biblical?
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on
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Roy,
There are two truths (among many) that work in harmony. They are God hates sin and will punish it and the lost sinner and God loves man and has provided salvation in Jesus Christ for all who repent and call upon His name (let's not go down the trail of what and how that happens, for that is not the point of this comment). It is an error for us to teach one without the other. It is an error for us to emphasize one while ignoring the other. These are two truths that are really part of one truth and cannot be separated. People do need to know what they are being saved from and why they deserved that punishment and at the same time know to Whom they are being saved.
You said: Again, Jesus had more problems with those who convinced the people they were all sinners than the actual sinners themselves.
Part of the problem was that they had distorted the message, added laws that were not of God and pointed people to a false hope. How horrible it is to present the truth that God hates sin and not also give them the hope that is in Christ Jesus, but without the knowledge of sin and a recognition of guilt before Father God will they truly repent, and if they repent and are not convinced of personal sin ... what are they repenting of? The message must include both we are lost and that there is hope in Christ. Jesus confronted sin, He did not ignore it in His teachings (as you are well aware).
I will agree that in our day we have ministries that are legalistic and seek to enslave people to religion, their religion, instead of revealing Jesus and our hope in Him and only through Him and only by Him.
You said: We are all aware of that God that brings about great destruction upon this earth because He hates sin.
I disagree. There are many living today that do not believe they are bad or wicked. They believe in a God of love that would never send anyone to hell and they live a life based on a false gospel that they or someone else has created. They have recreated, in their minds, a god that fits their views and accepts their lifestyle.
We are admonished in Scripture to live holy lives, sanctified lives and to live as Jesus lived. These are our goals that God calls us to seek after. Though we will not experience a life that is without failure that does not diminish that it is our goal as given by God and that we are to aspire to live holy and sanctified lives doing that which is right and hating that which is evil. This life is impossible without the work of the Holy Spirit, but we do play a part post salvation in the way we choose to live and in the decisions we make for godliness or sinfulness.
In 1 John 2:3-6 we are called to obey (this is post salvation) ... this is on us and is our responsibility. We must choose to do that which is right. We must seek to die to self daily and to carry our cross daily. One of my favorite sayings is that "there is a right way to live and a right reason to live that way." We are to seek to walk in alignment with God and this is because we love Him and want to please our Father in heaven. Once He is our Father He loves us without ceasing as His Child and will work on us and in us, but He does not ignore sin. There are consequences for sin even in the lives of believers. These consequences are up to Him as given to us in Hebrews 12 where we find divine discipline that is love based and yet that discipline will not seem pleasant at the time it is meted out, but it is for our good.
Let me ask you a question:
Would you present the gospel message and not mention sin to those who are lost and listening to you? I know you will talk about Jesus love, but what about sin, personal sin and a need for forgiveness?
Lord Bless,
LT
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Permalink Reply by RoyW on
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LT,
I have often spoken of God's love without mentioning sin. I raised five kids. They all love their mother and me very much. They were extremely obedient. Most of our focus was on our love for them rather than their responsibility of what they must do. They absolutely knew how much we loved them. They saw us sacrificing for them. They saw us giving our lives for them. They knew they were of utmost importance to us and that we would do anything within our power for them. Today we have five wonderful children in love with Jesus and serving Him in some very outstanding ways.
I see so much focus in this Christian life on what Christians should do and how they must live that so many miss the joy of knowing that God loves them so deeply that He would do anything for them. Jesus said we could ask anything of Him and He would do it. Why would He say that? Does He not realize that so many would take advantage of that and begin to ask for riches and fame - the very thing that would be so harmful to them? Of course He does. I asked Him to fulfill His will in the lives of our children and help me to share with them His love. I did not want them to grow as I did fearing Him. He did that. They all understand God's love. Sunday morning I sat in the service with my son preaching in his church about God's grace. Tears rolled steadily down my face as I sat there telling God over and over and over how thankful I was for that morning. I did not want the morning to end. I wanted it to go on and on and on.
I want everyone to share in God's goodness as I have. One day God showed me His love and I have never been the same since. I want my children to know that and all those who ask.
Anyway, there are plenty out there that will tell people how they must live, what they must do, how much money they need to give, etc., etc. There is so much of that I feel maybe a little more of the other from me won't hurt anyone.
I did my best to teach my children to be obedient but I was not focused on that. Many children leave the church when they leave home. Mine did not. Many children are not as involved in His church. Mine are very involved.
I do see that maybe that don't live as strict of lives as some believe they should do. Maybe I should have spent more time talking about those things. But, I would not exchange these kids for any others. Something we did worked. I'm not taking a lot of credit for that because we didn't do a whole lot.
My son spoke of a birthday he had when he was young and we had no money. He told how it became the best birthday of his life. I will have to tell that story sometime.
Yes, I think it would not hurt for us to talk mostly about God's love to God's people. I think people will respond to His love more than they will respond to His firm instructions.
Obviously, our Gospel is very similar. Apparently, I am putting too much emphasis on His love for some. What is the balance? 50/50? How about 90/10?
God has helped me to forgive people that have taken great amounts of money from me. I think about how much He has blessed me. I know He will restore it all and many times over. He already has. We are His children. He will defend us to the very end and then take us home.
I do not advocate sin but I do feel we need to relax just a little. Maybe we sometimes expect too much out of our brother. Do I want to be perfect? Yes. Can I enjoy Him until I get there? Yes.
Blessings.
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Roy,
While your kids were growing up were there consequences for them in your home when they disobeyed? Did you convey to them what was expected of them regarding courtesy and general behavior? At anytime did they question whether you really loved them?
In this conversation we must differentiate between the two sides of the cross. Those who have not come to know Jesus face eternal damnation because of personal guilt. Jesus is the answer, but they must realize a need for His forgiveness. I am not speaking of ramming it down their throats, but rather it being a basic part of the truth that we are sinners needing forgiveness to be saved and that forgiveness comes through Jesus. Then we have the saved side of the cross. We are saved by God and there is an expectation by God for us to seek to do good works (Eph. 2:10), live a sanctified life, a holy life, etc. I know Jesus loves me and I love Him. We must have a desire to not just enjoy Him, but to live in alignment with Him and His Word.
Regarding the balance ... the answer is that it depends on who you are talking to and where they are in life. Do they know Jesus or not? Are they seeking to live for Him or living in sin?
Roy, though we are saved and our salvation is all of Him, once we are saved we have a responsibility to seek to live for Him in holiness and righteousness. We have a responsibility to build one another up, to encourage and to hold one another accountable. As great as His love is it cannot be our only focus or our only message.
Lord Bless,
LT
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I agree - the power of the cross is that we are completely forgiven through faith. We then begin a life of learning His ways. My expectations were pretty high for my children. In my case, my children exceeded my expectations. However, I would still love them no matter what.
I think the Word is very clear that God has very high expectations of us. I believe He expects us to revolutionize the world we live in. However, I do believe His love is unconditional.
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Permalink Reply by Jon Houser on
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This is very well written, LT. I agree wholeheartedly with you.
God hates sin. That is why we are condemned in the first place. Eph 2:1 and Col 2:13 tell us this clearly.
And you are correct that there are many people who don't believe they are sinful, and if they are, they will get another chance (reincarnation) to be better the next time around. Christianity is the only world religion in history where the deity seeks out the salvation of man. Every other religion has man seeking to justify himself so that the deity will accept him. Only in Christ do we have a deity (forgive me for saying a deity for He is the ONE and ONLY true God) who is willing to sacrifice Himself for man, and to provide a pathway for us to reach Him.
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Permalink Reply by Amanda on
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Roy,
I think what you are saying is that God chooses to love us, even in sin, with unconditional love that isn’t based on performance but on grace. We aren’t able to measure up to God’s standards and only Jesus did. I think what you are saying is that God loves His children when they sin just as much as He loves them when they are following Jesus closely. I know you’re not excusing sin, and I don’t see your replies that way at all. We just don’t have the ability to be righteous on our own. Many do try to justify their sin. Many will sin and then say what they did wasn’t really that bad -- there are worse things than that. And so forth. People even laugh about sin. They will say it was funny how someone got drunk and did something foolish, like passing out in a weird place or slurring their speech, etc.
God gave us the commandments to make us aware of sin. But only Jesus can deliver us from the power of sin.
The wages of sin is death in every way -- physical, spiritual, eternal.
We ought to hate sin (and I know you do) if only for all the horrible things it has brought into this world -- crime, violence, war, heartache, sickness, broken homes, and on and on. I see your replies as simply saying Jesus saves us completely from sin. We want to be saved from sin and we long to be free from sin. To put on Christ is to have His holiness and righteousness. We have a different Master now, and we aren’t slaves to sin.
Romans 13:14
English Standard Version (ESV)
14 But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to gratify its desires.
The battle rages though. As Saint Paul said in Romans 7:18, “For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out”.
There is nothing good in the flesh. The regenerated spirit wants what God wants but the flesh has its own desires.
I understand what LT is saying, too. Luke 11:28, ESV, But he said, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”
We are fighting the good fight. Only when He empowers us can we live for Him and allow Him to live out His righteousness in and through us.
I'm still learning so correct me if I have misunderstood either one of you. I love you both as my brothers in Christ and have learned so much from both of you.
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Permalink Reply by Colby on
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God chooses to love us, even in sin, with unconditional love that isn’t based on performance but on grace.
Nicely said, Amanda! In my line of work as a human resources consultant, the concept of "pay for performance"-- linking an employee's salary level with their contribution to the organization's bottom line--is embedded in my psyche. It's part of my "gospel" of employee compensation that I share with the businesses seeking my professional and technical advice in salary setting.
Thankfully, God isn't a divine scorekeeper or the CEO of a business enterprise. Our salvation--yours and mine--is not "performance-based," earned by our merit. It's God's free gift to us.
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Is obedience to God necessary for salvation?
Terrific discussion question! It's thought provoking because it's somewhat ambiguous and open-ended. Different people are going to interpret this question differently, and people will agree or disagree depending on their interpretation.
For example, David Velasquez and LT answered yes and no, respectively, to the discussion question. But, I don't know that they're in disagreement after comparing what they both wrote.
- David: [Yes] "The answer to your question is a simple - yes. One must be obedient to God's decretive/ appointed will for salvation," however, he hastens to add, "but those things only happen once you are born of the Spirit." He goes on to say, "our will is slaved to sin before being born again and it belongs to God after we are born again."
- LT: [No] "Obedience to God is not necessary for salvation. Obedience to God is a right response of one who has been transformed and is now a child of God." He goes on to quote First John 2:3-6 in which our Lord says his "God's love is made complete" in those who obey his commandments.
As I read these and other responses posted and ponder the question, some clarification of the question and your intent in asking it would be helpful in order for me to formulate and post a response.
The reason for this question, is that I've read more than one reply that states that there is nothing left for us to do regarding salvation. Is this biblical?If I understand correctly, this is the basic thrust of the question: "In addition to what God has done, what must we do in order be saved and/or to maintain our salvation? In that light, the following possible interpretations come to mind.
- Do you mean: Is obedience a precondition or prerequisite for our salvation?
- Or do you mean: Is obedience our loving response to God's grace after we are saved--"a right response of one who has been transformed and is now a child of God," as LT put it. In other words: We aren't saved by our obedience, but we are saved to obey God.
- Or do you mean: Can people be saved without also displaying obedience?
- Or do you mean: Can people be saved without also displaying perfect obedience?
- David: [Yes] "The answer to your question is a simple - yes. One must be obedient to God's decretive/ appointed will for salvation," however, he hastens to add, "but those things only happen once you are born of the Spirit." He goes on to say, "our will is slaved to sin before being born again and it belongs to God after we are born again."
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Colby,
The original poster of this forum is no longer on AAG.
Lord Bless,
LT
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Permalink Reply by Seek on
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While I know Grace is no longer here, I was reading this morning and was coming here to ask about what I read with regards to this.
So as I went to look it up to go over it here, I'd like to point out something I discovered.
As I read in my Bible this morning (NIV):
1 Thessalonians 4:3-8: It is God’s will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality; that each of you should learn to control your own body in a way that is holy and honorable, not in passionate lust like the pagans, who do not know God; and that in this matter no one should wrong or take advantage of a brother or sister. The Lord will punish all those who commit such sins, as we told you and warned you before. For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life. Therefore, anyone who rejects this instruction does not reject a human being but God, the very God who gives you his Holy Spirit.
So I read that and thought, yes, punish...but not eternal hell. Then I read:
2 Thessalonians 1:8-9: He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.
So as I come here to discuss this and look the scriptures up to refresh my memory, I looked them up in KJV and they are worded a bit differently. Not much that it should make a huge difference, but it did clarify more on sanctification and abstaining from immorality. I also began to understand when it says "do not obey the gospel"...what is the "gospel"? It is the message of Jesus Christ, in believing in Him. It's not saying that those who fail to obey every command of God will be punished with hell.
Anyhow, I just pondered it this morning and found it interesting and thought I'd stick it here in case anyone else found it interesting. ;-)
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Those two passages refer to two different teachings focused on two different people. The first is directed to believers (the saved as seen in 1 Th. 4:1) and the second is directed to those who do not know God (the lost as seen in 2 Th, 1:8).
Lord Bless,
LT
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