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Is Obedience to God necessary for salvation?
I like to read all the replies here, they are very insightful and thoughtful.
The reason for this question, is that I've read more than one reply that states that there is nothing left for us to do regarding salvation. Is this biblical?
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Seek on
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Well I've had people say they can't understand the Bible, and so don't read it and my response has always been to pick a version they can understand. That reading another version was better than not reading at all. And yet with something like this, even the NIV version had me stumped. The way they worded it made it sound different to me. Then again, it may have been because I read it at 5 a.m. before my eyes were fully open, but by 8:00, when in the office and seeing it on the computer, I was more awake and understood it better. LOL But I like to try several varieties, plus commentaries when I read scripture I can't get. I will try praying on it and if I can't come to a satisfiable answer, I will ask someone their thoughts on it. Most of the time I have found enlightenment through John Gill's commentaries, but one of his this morning on another verse simply didn't sit well with me and I just knew that couldn't be the right answer. LT gave a better answer on that one for me.
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Permalink Reply by Colby on
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LT,
Duly noted. Thanks for the heads up.
Grace and peace be with you,
Colby
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Paraphrasing A.W. Tozer, you can't have one without the other. "To escape the error of salvation by works, we have fallen into the opposite error of salvation without obedience."
"Faith and obedience," Tozer explains, are two sides of the same coin" and, therefore, "inseparable." "Separate them [faith and obedience] and they are valueless."
Tozer sums it thusly: "faith is impossible without willing obedience. To try to have one without the other is to be not a Christian, but a student of Christianity merely. Genuine faith generates obedience to the one in whom our faith rests."
"The Inseparability of Faith and Obedience" by A.W. Tozer: https://www.cmalliance.org/devotions/tozer?id=994
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I was wondering about the man delivered from many demons. God told him to stay and tell others but never mentioned baptism. Same for the woman at the well. The people believed because they "heard", but nothing speaks of them being baptized.
Christ said you must first wash the inside and then the outside will be clean. The inside is cleaned through Christ. The outside relys on grace and Christ our advocate as we can never reach perfection.
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Permalink Reply by Jon Houser on
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All of these things happened before Jesus death. They were still under the Old Covenant.
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As we're all the baptisms that occurred before His death that were mentioned.
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And none of the baptisms before He died were New Testament baptisms. Only those baptisms from the day of Pentecost on were New Testament baptisms. We find in Acts 19:1-5, a group of people who had only heard John's baptism for repentance. When they heard the Gospel of Jesus, they were immediately baptized into Jesus.
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With Roy's recent response, I've been browsing this thread again and was also listening to the story of Zacchaeus this morning.
Luke 19
8 But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, “Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount.”
9 Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. 10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”
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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on
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Jon,
I have very limited access for some reason to AAG. I cannot access the site through my home internet. Thus, I am going to simply refer you to info from Got Questions on this subject that you insist everyone else is in error on. Unfortunately, it is you that are in error regarding the necessity of baptism to “BE SAVED.” The totality of Scripture simply does not teach that. May God help you see the truth as it appears in His Word.
From “Got Questions”:
Question: "Is baptism necessary for salvation?"
Answer: The belief that baptism is necessary for salvation is also known as "baptismal regeneration." It is our contention that baptism is an important step of obedience for a Christian, but we adamantly reject baptism as being required for salvation. We strongly believe that each and every Christian should be water baptized by immersion. Baptism illustrates a believer’s identification with Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection. Romans 6:3-4 declares, “Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.” The action of being immersed in the water illustrates dying and being buried with Christ. The action of coming out of the water pictures Christ’s resurrection. Read MoreQuestion: "Does Acts 2:38 teach that baptism is necessary for salvation?"
Answer: Acts 2:38, “And Peter said to them, ‘Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.’” As with any single verse or passage, we discern what it teaches by first filtering it through what we know the Bible teaches on the subject at hand. In the case of baptism and salvation, the Bible is clear that salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, not by works of any kind, including baptism (Ephesians 2:8-9). So, any interpretation which comes to the conclusion that baptism, or any other act, is necessary for salvation, is a faulty interpretation. For more information, please visit our webpage on "Is salvation by faith alone, or by faith plus works?" Read MoreQuestion: "Is salvation by faith alone, or by faith plus works?"
Answer: This is perhaps the most important question in all of Christian theology. This question is the cause of the Reformation, the split between the Protestant churches and Catholic Church. This question is a key difference between biblical Christianity and most of the “Christian” cults. Is salvation by faith alone, or by faith plus works? Am I saved just by believing in Jesus, or do I have to believe in Jesus and do certain things? Read MoreQuestion: "Does Mark 16:16 teach that baptism is necessary for salvation?"
Answer: As with any single verse or passage, we discern what it teaches through careful consideration of the language and context of the verse. We also filter it through what we know the Bible teaches elsewhere on the subject. In the case of baptism and salvation, the Bible is clear that salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, not by works of any kind, including baptism (Ephesians 2:8-9). So, any interpretation which comes to the conclusion that baptism, or any other act, is necessary for salvation is a faulty interpretation. For more information, please visit our webpage "Is salvation by faith alone, or by faith plus works?" Read MoreQuestion: "Does 1 Peter 3:21 teach that baptism is necessary for salvation?"
Question: "Does John 3:5 teach that baptism is necessary for salvation?"
Question: "Does Acts 22:16 teach that baptism is necessary for salvation?"
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Let me post a thought here, that will probably start a firestorm of disagreement, but I am sincere in my question.
Here is the scenario. You have a child that you raise to adulthood. One day, that child comes into your house and kills your wife (or husband) right in front of you. Now I ask you, would you turn your child over to the police, and have them executed (if that is the law in your State) for their crime? I just asked my wife, if our daughter killed me, would she turn our daughter over to the police, and she said, "Yes". I would do the same. I would not like to do it, but I would be obligated to see her punished for her crime. Now, I ask, would you still love her? My wife and I both answered, "Yes, we would still love her."
Here is the reason for my scenario. I have frequently heard Romans 8:38-39 ("For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.") quoted to say that we cannot lose our salvation after we are saved. I have read the verse to mean that nothing can take our salvation, but we could walk away from our salvation if we chose to. But I the scenario above is basically what we have between us and God. He created us. We are his children, and He loves us. But our sin killed Jesus. Now, nothing can separate us from His love, but He will still see us punished for our sin, even if it means our spiritual death in Hell.
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Your premise and points are flawed. Let me explain:
1) We start life in our default state of having the sin nature and are apart from God. We only become His children after the new birth.
2) You attempt to imply God would act as we would act in your illustration. God demonstrates just the opposite of what you are attempting to point out. We are already fallen and deserve damnation. In that lost state (Rom. 5:8) the Father instead of destroying mankind sent the Son to shed His precious blood as the payment for sin. He illustrated exactly what He was going to do in the life of Abraham when He called Abraham to sacrifice Isaac. God provided the sacrificial lamb. Yes we have to receive Him, but the work is His.
3) The Father's actions toward His children is seen wonderfully in two places. A) Peter rejecting Jesus and Jesus talking to him in John when He asked Peter if he loved Him. B) Hebrews 12 demonstrates the Father's actions and explains why He acts that way. He will apply divine discipline to His children ... not to the world, they stand under judgment. Children, because they are loved, will be disciplined for their correction and good. Philippians 1:6 tells us "being confident of this, he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus."
4) Whether you would turn your child in or not is not really relevant to how God would treat us as we cannot judge the actions of the Holy One by the actions of the created ... even the transformed children who are still living in the flawed flesh.
5) Most who believe like you (and there are many, and yes I am stereotyping a bit here) see salvation as a future event. There hope is only if they make it to the end. That being the case at time of receiving Jesus there can be no new birth, no transformation, no permanence of the indwelling Holy Spirit, no being called a child of God, and the list of things lost in this life goes on. There is so much that happens at regeneration (of the spirit) when we are born again that we become a new creation, have a new mind and our desires begin to change. Again the concept of faith without obedience is foreign ... obedience follows faith and the regeneration process, but the faith does not gain access to or secure salvation ... obedience flows from salvation, a right relationship with God.
BTW, no firestorm. You have a view and you have shared it, sometimes a bit strong, but at this point discussing the issues.
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1) I totally disagree with point #1. My 10 month old daughter is in a sinless state, and if she died today would go to heaven. Jesus said in Luke 18:16, "But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God." There are three states of people. We are born what I call "SAFE". We are in that state until we understand right and wrong, and choose wrong. There are some who will never reach this state. I believe some, like those with Downs Syndrome, will never reach a point where they understand right and wrong, and they will never reach a point where they can choose to follow God. Therefore they are SAFE. Once we sin, we are "LOST". This happens at different ages for each person. Now a person has a choice to remain lost, or choose to follow God, and become "SAVED".
2) I agree, God did arrange a way for us to become saved, but He cannot abide by sinfulness, and will cast away from Himself anyone who doesn't accept that sacrifice. God will not save everyone, not even all of those who call on His name (Matt 7:21). I think we do react similarly to how He reacts, because we were made in His image. I think he enjoys watching us discover new things about His world, just as I enjoy watching my daughter's wonder at discover things that I take for granted. I also know that He will disown those who disobey Him. (Read any of the Old Testament. The Israelites turned away from God and He disowned them many times. Threatening to destroy them and start over, but His mind was changed by His faithful servants.)
3) Do you think Judas will be in Heaven? His sin of betraying Jesus was no worse than Peter's sin of denying Jesus. But Peter was repentant; Judas was not. Peter will be in Heaven; Judas will not.
You don't believe that everyone is born a child of God? You don't believe that He loves every one of us from birth? These are questions, because you say that God only disciplines His children, not the World. I just want to understand your position here, because I believe He loves every one of us. I believe He doesn't want anyone who was ever born to be "lost", but He is willing to condemn us if we do not obey Him, because sin cannot exist where God is.
4) We can know how God will react, because He has told us that He will condemn us to Hell if we sin. We can only come back to Him through Jesus. I am not trying to put actions or words to God that He Himself has not already told us about. Our sin doesn't even have to be murder to exile us from Him. All sin is equal in His eyes. If you violate any of His commands, you are a law breaker (James 2:10 - "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."
5) I believe in the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the hearts of the saved today (Acts 2:38). I believe that we are "born again" at baptism, and that we are transformed at that point into a new life (Romans 8:6). I believe that we do get all the blessings in this life that you are talking about. But I believe that we can lose those blessings if we turn away from following God after we are saved in baptism. (I have written a reply to your dialogue that you had with others on this site. I am having it proofed by a couple of my friends who are ministers of Christ to make sure I am not making outrageous claims. You should have it in a couple of days.)
Obedience does not follow faith. Obedience is a part of faith (James 2). You have said that you don't believe any action is required on our part to bring us to salvation. We don't have to repent first? We can have salvation while we are still living a sinful life? Repentance is an action we take. We (not God in us) turn away from sin (Luke 24:46-47) before we can be saved. You don't believe we have to confess that Jesus is the Lord, the Son of God? That is an action we take. We (not God in us) believe the Scripture, and confess "with [our] mouth" (Romans 10:9).
These are all actions we must take that Scripture says "lead to" the forgiveness of sin, salvation, redemption, justification, etc. Scripture also says that baptism is part of this list. I don't understand how these statements of Jesus, Paul, Peter, James, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, etc. are in any way confusing. If thing A leads to thing B, we cannot do thing A after we do thing B, because we never get thing B without thing A. This is not human reasoning, this comes from Biblical example. Scripture says, "If you confess me, I will confess you..." Now will He confess us if we don't confess Him? NO! We are told, "be baptized for the forgiveness of your sins..." Will we be forgiven if we aren't baptized? NO! We are told, "For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you." (Matt 6:14). Which comes first? We forgive others, obviously. Because the very next verse says, "But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins." Again, can the unforgiven enter Heaven?
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