The Parting of the Ways- The split between Judaism and Christianity was gradual....

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on April 10, 2012 at 4:17pm

Ann,

 

Not everyone who recognizes the rapture believes in replacement theology.

 

From GotQuestions.org:

 

Question: "What is replacement theology / supersessionism?"
Answer: Replacement theology (also known as supersessionism) essentially teaches that the church has replaced Israel in God’s plan. Adherents of replacement theology believe the Jews are no longer God’s chosen people, and God does not have specific future plans for the nation of Israel. All the different views of the relationship between the church and Israel can be divided into two camps: either the church is a continuation of Israel (replacement/covenant theology), or the church is completely different and distinct from Israel (dispensationalism/premillennialism).

Replacement theology teaches that the church is the replacement for Israel and that the many promises made to Israel in the Bible are fulfilled in the Christian church, not in Israel. So, the prophecies in Scripture concerning the blessing and restoration of Israel to the Promised Land are “spiritualized” or “allegorized” into promises of God's blessing for the church. Major problems exist with this view, such as the continuing existence of the Jewish people throughout the centuries and especially with the revival of the modern state of Israel. If Israel has been condemned by God, and there is no future for the Jewish nation, how do we explain the supernatural survival of the Jewish people over the past 2000 years despite the many attempts to destroy them? How do we explain why and how Israel reappeared as a nation in the 20th century after not existing for 1900 years?

The view that Israel and the church are different is clearly taught in the New Testament. Biblically speaking, the church is completely different and distinct from Israel, and the two are never to be confused or used interchangeably. We are taught from Scripture that the church is an entirely new creation that came into being on the day of Pentecost and will continue until it is taken to heaven at the rapture (Ephesians 1:9-11; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17). The church has no relationship to the curses and blessings for Israel. The covenants, promises, and warnings are valid only for Israel. Israel has been temporarily set aside in God's program during these past 2000 years of dispersion.

After the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18), God will restore Israel as the primary focus of His plan. The first event at this time is the tribulation (Revelation chapters 6-19). The world will be judged for rejecting Christ, while Israel is prepared through the trials of the great tribulation for the second coming of the Messiah. Then, when Christ does return to the earth, at the end of the tribulation, Israel will be ready to receive Him. The remnant of Israel which survives the tribulation will be saved, and the Lord will establish His kingdom on this earth with Jerusalem as its capital. With Christ reigning as King, Israel will be the leading nation, and representatives from all nations will come to Jerusalem to honor and worship the King—Jesus Christ. The church will return with Christ and will reign with Him for a literal thousand years (Revelation 20:1-5).

Both the Old Testament and the New Testament support a premillennial/dispensational understanding of God's plan for Israel. Even so, the strongest support for premillennialism is found in the clear teaching of Revelation 20:1-7, where it says six times that Christ's kingdom will last 1000 years. After the tribulation the Lord will return and establish His kingdom with the nation of Israel, Christ will reign over the whole earth, and Israel will be the leader of the nations. The church will reign with Him for a literal thousand years. The church has not replaced Israel in God's plan. While God may be focusing His attention primarily on the church in this dispensation of grace, God has not forgotten Israel and will one day restore Israel to His intended role as the nation He has chosen (Romans 11).

Recommended Resource: Bible Answers for Almost all Your Questions by Elmer Towns.

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Permalink Reply by M Ann Brown on April 10, 2012 at 7:41pm

LT:

   Where does Ezekiel 37's prophecy of those long dead of Israel  being restored to life, come into fruition with the "Rapture" doctrine?

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on April 10, 2012 at 7:47pm

God returns to His work wih Israel after the rapture of the church.

 

From GotQuestions.org:

 

Question: "What is the meaning of the Valley of Dry Bones in Ezekiel 37?"
Answer: Ezekiel’s vision of the valley of dry bones (Ezekiel 37:1-14) came to him after God had directed him to prophesy the rebirth of Israel in chapter 36. God had just announced, through the prophet, that Israel will be restored to her land in blessing under the leadership of “David, My servant [who] shall be king over them” (Ezekiel 37:24), clearly a reference to the future under Jesus Christ the Messiah, descendant of David (Isaiah 7:14; 9:6-7; Luke 1:31-33). However, this seemed remote in light of Israel’s present condition. She was “dead” as a nation, deprived of her land, her king and her Temple. She had been divided and dispersed for so long that unification and restoration seemed impossible. So God gave Ezekiel the vision of the dry bones as sign.
God transported Ezekiel—probably not literally, but in a vision—to a valley full of dry bones and directed him to speak to the bones. Ezekiel was to tell the bones that God would make breath enter the bones and they would come to life, just as in the creation of man when He breathed life into Adam (Genesis 2:7). Ezekiel obeyed, the bones came together, flesh developed, skin covered the bones, breath entered them and they stood up in a vast army. This vision symbolized the whole House of Israel that was then in captivity. Like unburied skeletons, the people were in a state of living death, pining away with no end to their judgment in sight. They thought their hope was gone and they were cut off forever. The surviving Israelites felt their national hopes had been dashed and the nation had died in the flames of Babylon’s attack with no hope of resurrection.
The reviving of the dry bones signified God’s plan for Israel’s future national restoration. The vision also, and most importantly, showed that Israel’s new life depended on God’s power and not the circumstances of the people. Putting “breath” by God’s Spirit in the bones showed that God would not only restore them physically but spiritually as well. The Israelites residing in Palestine today are not the fulfillment of this prophecy. It will be fulfilled when God re-gathers believing Israelites to the land (Jeremiah 31:33; 33:14-16) and Christ returns to establish His Millennial Kingdom (Matthew 24:30-31).
Recommended Resource: Ezekiel NIV Application Commentary by Iain Duguid.

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Permalink Reply by M Ann Brown on April 11, 2012 at 10:29pm

LT:

   To summarize, your message above, you do not believe that Ez. 37  refers to those deceased of the  House of Israel and Judah who God has blinded, to the Gospel.  It's just "tuff luck" for them.  I guess they are bound for everburning hell??

   It seems that you believe that Ez. 37, only refers to Jews/Israelites who are alive today and in the future?

    So according to your article above, Jer. 31:30 - 31 God is going to make a "New Covenant" with Israel  in the future?

    Is the New Covenant God makes in the future with Israel, different from the covenant made with the Gentiles?   When do/did  the gentiles enter the  New Covenant?   The Bible texts of Jer. 31 & Heb 8 onlyl mentioned God entering a covenant with Israel and Judah.
   

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Permalink Reply by RoyW on April 12, 2012 at 6:18am

Ann,

I'm not LT but do you believe that those who die in unbelief will be raised to eternal glory? If so, you might as well throw the Gospel away. The Scripture is clear that those who have Christ have life and that those who do not do not have life. I think you should not be propagating this strange Gospel. And, let me say that the idea that those who die in unbelief will be raised to life if they are Jewish is really irresponsible. The Gospel teaches that those who die apart from the Law are judged apart from the Law while those who have the Law, well I think you know the rest.

Ro 4:15-17
15 because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.

16 Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring — not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. 17 As it is written: "I have made you a father of many nations."  He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed — the God who gives life to the dead and calls things that a
NIV

There is only one way to receive salvation (saved from His wrath and judgment) and that is through faith. If one dies in unbelief, yes, he is destined for hell. I believe God has a remnant and there might even be those who believe secretly but afraid to mention it. I do not believe it is really possible to read the Bible (which is widely available to all, today) believe it, and then reject Jesus. To reject Jesus, you must reject the Old Testament as well as the New. The Bible is one Book and those who fail to embrace the Bible are in huge trouble. God has made it abundantly clear to all that Jesus is His Son and that He is the One that was to come. He fulfilled everything the Old said of Him. Those who reject Him reject Isaiah, Jeremiah, David, Ezekiel, Moses and all the rest. Jesus clearly tells us that Moses spoke of Him. To reject Him means you have rejected Moses and that means death. Moses himself spoke of this death and curse. To embrace Moses, you must embrace God and His Son. Those who reject Moses are lost. The entire Bible is the Gospel of God. You cannot take parts of it and ignore the other parts. Yes, God will do a great thing but the Gospel is clear about those who die in unbelief. There is no future life for those. We live in a day where some and maybe many who are trying to redefine Scripture away from a belief that hell is eternal. I think that is extremely irresponsible in light of what the Scripture says.

Now, if you are just trying to learn what the Gospel says, I think that is wonderful. I hope you are not propagating a Gospel that purports ultimate reconciliation. I know that teaching is against the teaching of AAG.

If you are interested in this teaching, a couple of good articles on it are:

http://www.bible.com/bibleanswers_result.php?id=140

http://www.gotquestions.org/ultimate-reconciliation.html.

The Bible clearly teaches that God has a plan for choosing His people. There are differences of opinion on how that plan works but I can guarantee that it is right. You cannot accuse God of doing wrong and no one will be left without excuse. I am very sorry for those who will be lost. Paul said he would be willing to be lost himself to save his fellow Jews but, of course, that is not possible. It is impossible for the believer to be lost. Please don't worry about God blinding eyes. What He is doing is very right and very deserving. The warnings in Deuteronomy are very clear. The warning in Genesis are very clear. The flood testifies to God's judgment. If anyone thinks for a moment that God will not carry out justice, he only needs to read the Bible. Some do feel that God will repent of His anger and save those who have died in unbelief. That is absolute nonsense. Yes, they are blind but justifiably so. Anyone could get a Bible and read for him/herself God's plan. Of someone could not find the Gospel, he should forsake all and go to the ends of the earth to find someone that could preach to him the Gospel. Is there a people anywhere that could not get somewhere to find the Gospel? I really don't think so. God will get the Gospel to all those who hunger and thirst after righteousness. Jesus will make sure that happens. I am not buying at all it is God's fault that some are lost.

Blessings.

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Permalink Reply by M Ann Brown on April 12, 2012 at 6:43am

Roy:
   Now I am really confused.

So do all those who have died mentally deficient, or babies who died before they are born, or before they can reason, or before they are of the "age of accountability" or before they could be baptised, also go to hell because they have not repented or "could not" accepted Jesus and become baptised?

I work with a mentally handicapped population.  Many are handicapped due to a brain injury at birth or later in childhood,  disease which affected the brain, alcohol or drug abuse by the mother when pregnant, incest etc., etc.

What about those inbdividuals, behind the "iron & bamboo curtains" and in deepest darkest Africa   who died even though the "missionary was on his way" but missed his flight, had a flat tire or ship sank, those multiple millions go to hell too?

I thought the rapture teaching indicated that all babies of all people no matter the religion the parents were, would be saved at the rapture.  

An after thought/question:
   Remember the "little  JEWISH children" that "heard Jesus speak" if once they gwere with their mothers, and after they got home,   if their father was one of those Jewish leaders who did not believe in Him, and did not let the mother or children return to hear more from or about Jesus and be baptized, if that child and mother died, before they had heard enough to be saved, are they going to hell too?

Please help me clarify.
 

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on April 12, 2012 at 2:02pm

Ann,

 

So do all those who have died mentally deficient, or babies who died before they are born, or before they can reason, or before they are of the "age of accountability" or before they could be baptised, also go to hell because they have not repented or "could not" accepted Jesus and become baptised?
Not everyone believes in the age of accountability. It cannot be proven from Scripture ... key word is “proven.” People do not get baptized to be saved, but in response to their salvation are baptized, for salvation is in Jesus and Jesus only.

I work with a mentally handicapped population. Many are handicapped due to a brain injury at birth or later in childhood, disease which affected the brain, alcohol or drug abuse by the mother when pregnant, incest etc., etc.
Can one know the power of God in regards to reaching the mentally handicapped when the gospel is presented to them? There is only one path to salvation and it is Jesus and faith comes from hearing the message (Rom. 10:17). It does not say this is the path, except when this problem or situation exists.

What about those inbdividuals, behind the "iron & bamboo curtains" and in deepest darkest Africa who died even though the "missionary was on his way" but missed his flight, had a flat tire or ship sank, those multiple millions go to hell too?

When you understand the lostness of man you will understand the answer to this question. Man is born into a sinful world with a sinful nature and is destined to hell, but for the offer found in and through Jesus Christ. Not all will be saved, nor will all hear. We send missionaries because they are lost, without hope unless they hear the gospel and respond.

 

I thought the rapture teaching indicated that all babies of all people no matter the religion the parents were, would be saved at the rapture.
You assume too much. Not everyone who recognizes the biblical truth of the rapture believes as you have stated. You are attempting to put people in a box ... not a good idea.

An after thought/question:
Remember the "little JEWISH children" that "heard Jesus speak" if once they gwere with their mothers, and after they got home, if their father was one of those Jewish leaders who did not believe in Him, and did not let the mother or children return to hear more from or about Jesus and be baptized, if that child and mother died, before they had heard enough to be saved, are they going to hell too?

Anyone who does not receive Jesus in this life is destined to hell because of personal sin, regardless of the scenario you should attempt to build.

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on April 12, 2012 at 3:00pm

Alienated,

 

From GotQuestions.org

 

Question: "Where do I find the age of accountability in the Bible? What happens to babies and young children when they die?"

Answer: The concept of the "age of accountability" is that children are not held accountable by God for their sins until they reach a certain age, and that if a child dies before reaching the "age of accountability,' that child will, by the grace and mercy of God, be granted entrance into Heaven. Is the concept of an age of accountability biblical? Is there such a thing as an "age of innocence"?

Frequently lost in the discussion regarding the age of accountability is the fact that children, no matter how young, are not “innocent” in the sense of being sinless. The Bible tells us that even if an infant or child has not committed personal sin, all people, including infants and children, are guilty before God because of inherited and imputed sin. Inherited sin is that which is passed on from our parents. In Psalm 51:5; David wrote, “Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.” David recognized that even at conception, he was a sinner. The very sad fact that infants sometimes die demonstrates that even infants are impacted by Adam’s sin, since physical and spiritual death were the results of Adam's original sin.

Each person, infant or adult, stands guilty before God; each person has offended the holiness of God. The only way God can be just and at the same time declare a person righteous is for that person to have received forgiveness by faith in Christ. Christ is the only way. John 14:6 records what Jesus said: “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, except through Me.” Also, Peter states in Acts 4:12; “Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.” Salvation is an individual choice.

What about babies and young children who never reach the ability to make this individual choice? The age of accountability is a concept that teaches those who die before reaching the age of accountability are automatically saved, by God’s grace and mercy. The age of accountability is a belief that God saves all those who die before reaching the ability to make a decision for or against Christ. Thirteen is the most common number given for the age of accountability, based on the Jewish custom that a child becomes an adult at the age of 13. However, the Bible gives no direct support to the age of 13 always being the age of accountability. It likely varies from child to child. A child has passed the age of accountability once he or she is capable of making a faith decision for or against Christ.

With the above in mind, also consider this: Christ's death is presented as sufficient for all of mankind. First John 2:2 says Jesus is “the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.” This verse is clear that Jesus' death was sufficient for all sins, not just the sins of those who specifically have come to Him in faith. The fact that Christ's death was sufficient for all sin would allow the possibility of God’s applying that payment to those who were never capable of believing.

The one passage that seems to identify with this topic more than any other is 2 Samuel 12:21-23. The context of these verses is that King David committed adultery with Bathsheba, with a resulting pregnancy. The prophet Nathan was sent by the Lord to inform David that because of his sin, the Lord would take the child in death. David responded to this by grieving, mourning, and praying for the child. But once the child was taken, David's mourning ended. David's servants were surprised to hear this. They said to King David, “What is this thing that you have done? While the child was alive, you fasted and wept; but when the child died, you arose and ate food.” David's response was, “While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept; for I said, ‘Who knows, the LORD may be gracious to me, that the child may live.’ But now he has died; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he will not return to me.” David's response indicates that those who cannot believe are safe in the Lord. David said that he could go to the child, but that he could not bring the child back to him. Also, and just as important, David seemed to be comforted over this. In other words, David seemed to be saying that he would see the child (in heaven), though he could not bring him back.

Although it is possible that God applies Christ's payment for sin to those who cannot believe, the Bible does not specifically say that He does this. Therefore, this is a subject about which we should not be adamant or dogmatic. God’s applying Christ’s death to those who cannot believe would seem consistent with His love and mercy. It is our position that God applies Christ's payment for sin to young children and those who are mentally handicapped, since they were not mentally capable of understanding their sinful state and their need for the Savior, but again we cannot be dogmatic. Of this we are certain: God is loving, holy, merciful, just, and gracious. Whatever He does is always right and good.

Recommended Resource: Safe in the Arms of God: Words from Heaven About the Death of a Chi....

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on April 12, 2012 at 3:04pm

Alienated,

 

I don't agree with every aspect of the above article, but it does give an overview and recognizes that we cannot be dogmatic on this topic due to a lack of information given in Scripture.

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on April 12, 2012 at 6:52am

Ann,

 

Two things:

 

1) I agree with Roy and what he has said to you, including where AAG stands on the issue.

2) I will not respond to anymore of your direct questions until you take the time and respond to the questions posed to you throughout this thread. You tend to ignore most of our questions and just ask more questions. That does not work here.

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Permalink Reply by M Ann Brown on April 12, 2012 at 7:18am

Lt:
   I am sorry but this format is very hard to follow.   Sometimes responses end up at on the last numeric page of this thread, sometimes in the middle.
   With questions being intermixed on these pages, please list (copy and paste on one message) or to my private mail box the things you think I have overlooked.  

  I am not a novice to the bible, I have read what I thought was all of your questions.     Just because I haven't responded to every question, does not mean I have not read them.  I do have other things I must do throughout the day and other sites I am  in discussions on.

   My view of God is different, I know that He loves Israel, He calls them "His Beloved, the "Apple of His eye":

Paul remind us Gentiles that, "they (Israel) are beloved for the fathers sakes"?(Romans 11: 28)

 
Paul warns us Gentiles, "not to be ignorant of this mystery (Israel), lest we become wise in our own conceit", because Israel's blindness to the gospel will only continue "until the fulness of the Gentiles come in". (Romans 11: 25)

Please note it is a MYSTERY, what God is doing to and for Israel.

Paul does not seem to be saying here, that "unbelieving Israel is going to hell".   But they like anyone born blind, cannot be faulted for what they cannot see.  God even has a law that it is forbidden to put something in front of the blind so that they stumble and fall.  God therefore would not break His own law, and blind the Jew , and send them to hell.

They are blinded TEMPORARILY for a purpose, that is so that the Gentiles can be saved.  After that point, Paul appears to be saying that their blindness will  be removed.

To interpret the blindness God put on Israel (which is sending them to hell, in order to allow the Gentiles to be saved, would be like any of you, sacrificing  your first born, so that a dying "adopted child" could have life.   Gentiles are "adopted" into the covenants of Israel, not the primary recipient of it.

Ephesians 2:11-22 makes it clear that formerly the Gentiles were separated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers of the covenant of promise. Yet now, through the blood of Christ, those of us who were afar have been brought near, so that we are no longer strangers but fellow citizens and partakers of the promise (Eph 3:6)

Roy, no unbelieving Israel  will not be raised to "glory" but back to the flesh, (Ez. 37) and given ONE, their FIRST opportunity to be saved  when they  enter the Millineum. 

God is a God of love, kindness, justice and mercy.  Israel's blindness is His plan, not for their destruction, and eternal life in hell, but for our MUTUAL salvation.

 

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on April 12, 2012 at 7:31am

Ann,

 

It is important in discussions like these that the Q&A go back and forth in order for us to navigate the topic openly and fairly. Thank you for your reply. That helps us (me) to better understand where you are coming from as there are various versions out there of your view.

 

I do not have time to reply to your post above or the one to Ray as I am heading out, but will do so ASAP. I am confident Roy will respond accordingly as well.

 

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