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I am really confused on this one, why do people identify themselves as calvanists??? aren't we all christians, dont we all believe in one God and that he gave us Jesus his only begotten son to die for us all, everyone.
So what is this about CALVANISM???? why the "isms"
its like you are worshipping and following this calvin guy. arent we suppose to identify ourselves as Christians the Jesus people. not the Calvin people???
Who is Calvin, for people to identify themselves as calvinists???calvanist christians? im confused im sorry please explain this to me!!!!

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Sister Paula,

"Calvinists doctrine is not according to the Word of God. The teaching which they received and which they firmly hold on to, is not Biblical."

I would not be so quick to make such and assertion sister. Please visit the Theology group and share why you think the doctrine is not of God. I think that forum serves it best. There is sooooooooo much more to look at in Romans 8 and 9.
I am not teaching here, nor am I looking for a fight, I just dislike to see Calvinist and Arminians duke it out when they have not even spen the time to analyze the doctrines they oppose in detail, at times not even superficialy. My only goal here is to inform the body of Christ that both schools have pleanty of scripture to back up their beliefs and only the true seeker of the truth has enough wisdom from above to discerned between the two as to which parts are right and which ones are not.

I have been a member of the Pentecostal church for 16 years but I LOVE MY FAMILY IN CHRIST AND I KNOW CHRIST IS COMING BACK FOR HIS CHURCH NOT DENOMINATIONS OR THEOLOGICAL SCHOOLS OF THOUGHT.

I embrace both schools and take the good and leave the bad aside. I have no problem making such statements, since my loyalty is to my Lord and His word primarely. I LOVE YOU FAMILY and hope this discussions edify you.
THIS IS A CORRECT REPRESENTATION OF WHAT THE REFORMERS/CALVINIST BELIEVE.
I WILL DO THE ARMINIAN NEXT.

Romans 8:29-30 and Roms 9. These two chapters contains the Apostle Paul’s treatment in the doctrine of predestination/election. One of the most difficult and controversial doctrines in the History of the church.

This doctrine of course intermingles with God’s Sovereignty and men’s Free will. I PRAY GOD HELPS US NOT TO BE INSULTING BUT MAY WE EXERCISE CHARITY, THESE ARE SOME OF THE MOST DIFFICULT DOCTRINES I HAVE ENCOUNTER IN SCRIPTURE TO UNDERSTAND AND I AM IN THE COMPANY OF MOST IN SAYING THAT I MAY NEVER UNDERSTAND them FULLY WHILE ON THIS BOBY AND THAT IS OK, BUT I AM SURELY GOING TO GIVE IT MY BEST EFFORT BY THE SPIRIT’S HELP.

As an apologist I am called to learned the other views of a certain doctrine better than those teaching it, at least that is my personal goal and conviction, but I do understand that many find that a futile exercise. The difference between my approach and I believe most apologist is that I remain open during my research to learn. If something I am studying aligns better with the bible as a whole, I incorporated into my bank of info. Not saying in my previous statement that is what all of us should do, simply saying: is how I study, unless I know something to be in error 100%. God calls us to different purposes within the same body.

In Romans 8:29-30 we have what is known as the Ordo Salutis (the order of salvation.) Not a complete order, but some of it. This is also known as the golden chain. It seeks to answer the question, “In what ways are the various aspects of salvation ordered. ”In Romans 8:28 we have one of the most famous verses in scripture and in order to keep this in context we need to ask how is God able to make all things work together for good? Well in order for God to work all things together for good He must be in control of all things (Sovereignty). Also Paul is making that claim in Rom. 8:28 because he is trying to comfort the Christians that suffer the war of the flesh and the Spirit, as well as all sorts of trials and even persecution. He is comforting them by teaching them that they need not loose their head because God is in control of all things. That is comforting. Satan, demons and man are not doing anything outside Gods perfect or permissive will. This is the context in which this doctrine is brought up in. God’s sovereignty must extend over all things in order for Him to be able to work all things for good according to His purposes.

The doctrine of predestination is clearly contained in the bible and all honest theologians must adhere to it. Both Arminian and Calvinist theology agree that Predestination is biblical, how it is taught differs. What is the correct doctrine of predestination, Gods sovereignty and man’s free will?
The Evangelical churches today believe in the most popular and widely accepted view of predestination, that is the Prescient view, which holds that predestination is totally dependant on Gods foreknowledge of our actions and decisions. This doctrine is widely accepted because it makes sense, it give us a just God. There is nothing unjust about God saving us according to His foreknowledge of our actions and decisions, it makes perfect sense and both man and God have an active part in the order of Salvation. So many of the difficulties that come up in the other different ways of interpreting these passages disappeared. Semi-Pelagius (a title which not all Arminians feel comfortable with) teach that Gods grace can be resisted by fallen men.
Arminians say that nothing can be more obvious than, that the ground for predestination is foreknowledge as seen here in the Ordo Salutis. This is the view I have held for 15 years, but is now, as I am culminating my studies in the different views held by the Reformed theologians, being challenge in ways that I am not apt to repudiate fully and are truly giving me a lot to considered.
Many are called, but few are chosen. Here is what reformed theology teaches according to what I know, hear and read them saying:
God can not predestine people He does not know, so the fact that the golden chain starts with foreknowledge does not prove anything either way.

Romans 8:29-30 (New International Version)
29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
The structure of the literature here comes in the form of what is known as elliptical literature, which means that there are words that are not contain in the ellipsis, but the literary structure demands they be supplied. Was Paul saying ALL who are Called or SOME who are called?

What Paul is saying is that those who are foreknown regardless of how they are being foreknown are also predestined, and all of those who are in the category of being predestine are also called, and all of those who are in the category of being called are also justified, and all of those who are in the category of being justified are also Glorified. Some who are justified do not fail to be glorified but everyone who is justified will have the consummation of their called in glorification. The Element at this point that needs our attention here is the element of Calling. What kind of calling is in view here? There are two types of callings that I can see in the bible. The out ward called of the Gospel, which we do when we preach, but that outward called is rejected most of the time, so what calling is in view here? Many are called but few are chosen Jesus says, so it is obvious that the outward called can and is resisted in many occasions. But if Paul is saying all who are called are justified then he could not be talking about the outward called, can he? So he must be talking about the other call I see in scripture. What is called the initial effectual called of God or it is also called at times the irresistible called of God, which is a term I dislike because even that calling can be resisted by man and God overcomes our resistance to his grace, I rather use the classical term, the effectual called. Is the called that brings about the Effect that God sovereignty desires and decrees. Going back to creation we see that God does not give an out ward calling to creation and then waits to see if creation listens (of course, natural creation does not have free will as we do), but rather He gives the command an imperative is spoken and effectually and irresistibly the light begins to shine. When Lazarus was resurrected he is brought back to life by the called of Jesus, he had no choice but to come back to his dead body which Jesus made a life in a command, which can not be denied.

So in the golden chain which call is in view is the first question that rises. Since all who are called are justified and at the end Glorified it must referred to the inward called, which is linked at one side by justification and on the other side by predestination.
If it If Paul doesn’t mean all and we go back and say some who are called are justified and some who are justified are Glorified, we have huge problems. How can God called some and justify them and not finish what He started. Some who are called are justified and some will be glorified. It just doesn’t sound like the biblical God.

Romans 9:10-13 (New International Version)
10Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, "The older will serve the younger."[a] 13Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."[b]

14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."[c] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."[d]

Why would Paul state the above statement if in fact God’s basis for election/calling would be grounded on His foreknowledge of our future actions or decisions? The Apostle would be confussing God’s people at this point, but as scripture teaches everywhere else, it is not by works but by Grace. God’s choice of Jacob over Esau had nothing to do with God’s foreknowledge of their performance, which is underscore when the Apostle says “. 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.
The plain sense of scripture here teaches that Gods election of Jacob over Esau is totally outside their actions and decision, there is no possible way around it as it’s seen here from these verses and I am not sure I can do justice to the truth by saying that these passages are not about the election of individuals, but of Nations, which even if true, Nations are made up of individuals, so it comes back to individuals. One individual was elect and the other was not.
As an apologist I learned the doctrines of those teaching error so I can tell them why their understanding is not aligned with scripture. I do my best to anticipate the questions they may raised as well through our debate, so before they even get a chance to come at me with their questions I already asked and answered them. I even include harder questions to questioned the validity of my own argument, than the ones they were familiar with and of course answered them. So I take a way their ammunition since I have study there error better than them and I know my own stands. Teachers called to defend the faith often do this, Paul is doing it here and 1 Cor. 15 “the resurrection chapter” is a master piece of that approach. Here he is anticipating the huge question that the doctrine of Gods election raises!!!

14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! (may it never be).

This question is not raised if predestination is based on foreknowledge; there is nothing unjust about that, it makes sense. Paul however expects his readers and listeners (as experience has taught him when teaching this doctrine) that the number one argument raised with God’s election of His creature is: THAT IS UNJUST! Paul just told us that God soveringly chose Jacob over Esau and then stops and asks: what do you think about that? Is it unjust? And he comes back as strongest possible and states NOT AT ALL! MAY IT NEVER BE! The one objection that the view that Gods’ election is based on foreknowledge does not have to deal with, is the question of Gods’ Justice, so why would Paul raised the question? It seems to me as I read chapter 8 and 9 that Paul is teaching the sovereign unconditional election, about which the response is always, that is not fair. God answers by saying “I will have mercy on who I Will have mercy and I will have compassion on who I will have compassion.

So why would God choose you and not another- does that mean that God chooses to justify and glorify those He calls and others He chooses or creates and predestines them for hell? Some call that stand Hyper-Calvinism, which in my opinion is an insult to Calvin, because is actually anti-Calvenism. He never believed that or thought that. No one can quote him saying that, I may be wrong but I have not found any of his writings proclaiming that. Just as things are attributed to Arminius and are lies, that is the case with Calvin as well. There is nothing unjust by God choosing some for his grace and not others. God is not choosing anyone for hell; he is not making anyone evil. He is simply giving some Grace and others Justice. In other words since all of humanity is guilty of sin and not one of us do good, we were all heading to hell. God steps in the picture and gives those He calls grace and saves them despite themselves. And the ones that are not chosen get justice; the payment of sin is death. Now is God unjust by doing that? May it never be, is it equality, no! is certainly is not equal and hence the problem, but is not unjust. He chooses those that get grace and the others do not get it. We have come to believe specially as Americans that we all deserve God’s Grace, that God should give everyone His mercy. Equal rights to every one or else the system or God is unjust. God’s answer to us is hard to swallow but He does not stop from expressing it. One person gets grace the other gets justice, is that unfair, NO!!! In the case of the elect, God soveignly intrudes into their hearts and creates faith, but on the rest of mankind he does not create evil in their hearts, He simply leaves them to themselves according to His holy purposes.
"I will have mercy on who I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."[c] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's
mercy.
The fact that God chooses through His calling does not involved God in an unjust transaction. God is perfect and good. It is His prerogative as the creator and a possessor of a perfect will and perfect knowledge what He does with His creation. Paul continues and states
19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" (a deadly blow for those among us that believe that God can not overcome our will, who can resist is! Scripture teaches ) 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[h] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory.

Why does God choose us before we desire or do anything? 11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand:


The credit of our entire redemption goes to God, God is showing his supremacy. God does not have to save anyone from His wrath, but He chooses to give some grace, this sounds unjust in the surface, but is not. It’s fair, the others get justice. No one receives injustice. God choice is made looking at us as a fallen human race. If God gave all of us justice, then we will all perish, but He chooses to give some Grace. We say that is not fair, no, what it is not , is equal. God is not obligated to give grace or mercy both are actions that we do not deserve and unmerited by us. If God allowed all of us to do our evil desires as lost and blind people and would all go to hell, is God unjust then/ No – we get what we deserve. Our so called Free will is only free to sin before the Spirit quickens it. When Nicodemus asked Jesus how a man is born again in John 3, Jesus states 5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[b] gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You[c] must be born again.' 8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit." Jesus does not tell Nicodemus pray this way or is according to your will and decision but leaves us to ask, what in the world is He talking about - 8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit." What He is telling Nic is, look being born again is not up to you, but up to the Spirit that goes and comes as He pleases.
So election depends on human choice? Paul says here it doesn’t.
What does it mean that God hated Esau? Well remember when David says I hated my enemies with a perfect hatred, well there is a holy hatred, which means the absence of divine favor.


So how do we explained here that God harden Pharaoh’s heart, doesn’t that mean that God created evil in Pharos’s heart, no!, as we all know the Holy Spirit restrains the world from being as evil as it can be. When the Holy Spirit is removed from the earth after the church is rapture, it will be horrible. God can harden the heart by one of two ways. By going into the heart of man and creating evil or by simply removing the restraining power of the Holy Spirit, which is what I believe the bible means when it speaks of God hardening the heart. He as it’s stated in Romans give them up to their lustful ways; He is passing judgment over them and will allow them to be as evil as they desire to be according to His perfect and good purposes. God has the power to make any of us do what He wants, but God is not evil or the doer of such. All men are fallen, all men are wicked but some receive justice and others received grace.

So why would God asked us to evangelized, well just like in prayer, even though He knows what we need before we asked, He has established the means in which the called are chosen. He has decreed the means as from the beginning. Why are we called to run the race to the end and what does it mean to persevere in the faith, I see God preserving us more than anything. He who began a good work in us will finish it until the end. Philippians. 1 John says “those who went out from us were never of us”, Jesus said that “this people honor Him with their lips but their hearts are far from me.” He also says in Matthew “ Not everyone that says Lord, Lord…I never knew you, depart from me workers of iniquity.” Jesus prays that those that the father gave Him not one of them be lost and He is talking about all of us not just the Apostles. The enduring that we partake on is by Gods grace in our life. A Christian can dive into the sickest sins and yet remain a Christian, Am I saying go and sin, may it never be, just stating what I see in scripture, but please do not ignored the humongous consequences of sin in the believers life. We loose so much, a right relationship with God, his anointing to teach and preach; we loose joy and forfeit the peace that goes beyond human understanding among many other things. We see David committing murder and adultery. We see Peter committing the worst of sins - he denied the Lord, none of the sins we commit can be more serious as Peter’s publicly betraying the Lord, even after being warned. He committed treason
Jesus had told Peter, Simon Satan would have you and swift you like wheat, but I have prayed for you, so that WHEN YOU TURN (not if you turn from your sin, but when you turn) YOU STRENGHEN THE BROTHERS. True Christians can have radical falls, but never total falls. Christians can be so caught up in sin that they are excommunicated as we see in 1 Cor. 5. But that is done in hopes that the brother/sister repents and returns. Can we say that someone that publicly denies God/Jesus has lost His salvation, no because we do not know the heart. If we would have met Peter during his denial of the Lord, we would all call him a lost soul or say he lost his salvation or never had it. The Holy Spirit raises us from the dead to eternal life. He does not only initiate our salvation, but He seals us and we are given the earnest of the Spirit. We posses the indwelling of the Holy Spirit who has been given to us as a down payment and we are sealed in the beloved for all time. Jesus is interceding/mediating for us daily. When Judas sin, Jesus said at the table go and do… when He spoke to Peter about his coming fall, He told Peter - I HAVE PRAYED FOR YOU.

You guys are the most important people in the world - you preach the gospel and you and I are after the truth. I do not want to be the blind leading the blind or the one mistaken in my message, so bear with me as I continue to seek understanding. John 6:44 NO ONE CAN COME TO ME UNLESS THE FATHER WHO SENT ME DRAWS HIM TO ME… All other religions in the world differ from Christianity because the foundation of all false religions claimed that man can do something to be saved, but true Christianity teaches is by grace alone. There is no part of men that is not affected by sin and not one seeks God or does good and there is nothing in us that can please God for entrance into heaven or to established relationship with God.God has foreordained everything that has happened or will ever happen. If anything happens outside the ordination of God, than that means that Gods sovereignty is not total. All I mean by Gods decreed is that God is aware of it. God allows evil to happen, He is not applauding it or causing it but He is aware of it.

You see family is not as easy as : those crazy calvinist or their doctrine is wrong, when you have not studied it or know it! I am sure some of you have, but we all know that is an extremly low percentage. MOST CHRISTIANS DON'T EVEN STUDY THE BIBLE MUSCH LESS DOCTRINAL MATTERS. WITH MUCH LOVE FAMILY!

How do we refute these teachings that seem to make a lot of sense scripturally? I have done my best to summarize volumes of info. Be bless beloved.
Ephesians 1:11 NKJV
In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will.

A predestination is mentioned in the Bible, but it's not the predestination preached by Calvin.

That's what happened when someone puts His own meaning to the words written in the Bible.

I Cor. 4:6 - Do not think beyond what is written.
So with that statement Hellofull you debunked the whole theological structure of The Reformers.

I don't think so.

You are so quick to claim everyone else is putting their own meaning to the words written in the Bible and then follow up with your meaning of scripture. hahaha

So which predestination is preached in the bible if you don't mind?

I started a topic about the differences found between Reformed theology/Calvinism and Arminianism in the Theology group, not so we can hate each other and dispute like crazy folk’s hahaha but so we can get a deeper understanding of both systems.

They have a lot more in common than most think.

Let us look at each theological system with integrity and not hate, anger or resentment.

If you are into learning such matters (which all of should) you are welcome to visit the group.
I WANT TO THANK EVERYONE FOR THEIR RESPONSES , I AM RECENTLY BORN AGAIN AND I REALLY NEED TO CONNECT TO GOD, I WANT TO WORSHIP HIM , I WANT TO APPRECIATE JESUS FOR SAVING US FROM ETERNAL DEATH, AND I DO I WANT FURTHER UNDERSTAND THE ROLE OF JESUS MOST IMPORTANTLY I DONT WANT TO GO TO HELL , THATS MY WORST FEAR
IM SORRY I DIDNT MEAN TO ATTACK THE CALVANISM VIEW ITS JUST THAT WHEN THEY TALKED ABOUT THE ELECT, IT AFFECTED ME KNOWING THAT I MIGHT NOT BE AN ELECT, AND IM GOING STRAIGHT TO HELL.
I AM TRYING MY BEST NOT TO SIN AGAIN , I READ THE BIBLE EVERYDAY , I PRAY FOR EVERYTHING IN LIFE.
I REALLY WANT TO GO TO HEAVEN AND I KNOW ITS NOT GOING TO BE EASY.
STAY BLESS EVERYONE , WE WILL SOON ALL AVE THE ANSWERS. KEEP ON TRUSTING AND KEEP ON BELIEVING
jayne, as you follow Jesus - He will lead you like a shepherd. I want to encourage you to read the Gospels over and over. Don't listen to anything else, don't read anything else, until after you can quote all four of the Gospels from memory.

Then, begin reading the book of Acts and then the letter to the Romans. In this way, I encourage you to build your faith - line upon line, verse upon verse.

When you read the Gospels, you will come across verses from the Old Testament. I encourage you to open those passages and read them in their original context. You will learn many valuable things about God's interaction with his people under the Old Covenant. You will learn many important things, such as the fact that God keeps His covenants and promises, that God has a plan that He is sovereignly working out and that humble people who trust and obey Him get to be part of that plan.

God bless you and remember that it is Jesus you are following; no man, no organization and no philosophy - it is a living dynamic and personal relationship with the Son of God. I began this year with my own plan. God interrupted that plan and led me many places I have never been before. I wound up traveling over 30,000 miles to three continents and had experiences that I never could have had on my own. God soveriegnly orchestrated many amazing things I could never have organized on my own.

Following Jesus will require more faith, more trust, more courage and more humility than you have ever experienced before. It will be worth everything that you can yield into his hand to completely trust Him. You will experience things in your life that you never imagined. Most importantly, begin practicing what Jesus teaches. When he says for his disciples to do something in His word, you must do it. Do it with total faith in him, prayerfully seeking Him. He will reward you greatly.

Blessings, in Christ.

Scribe
>>I wasn't aware DV was bullying people into Calvinist submission.

What are you talking about Tom?

Did you even read the thread? Your ridiculous infatuation with me needs to stop sir. I am not here to play games. We give you love and you do nothing but spit on it. You need to repent and accept God as your Lord and savior.

You have been here under multiple aliases, I am not playing with you nor do I take your silly comments kindly sir. Tom, Imperator, John Walker etc.

This is not a site where you come to offend people it will not be tolerated as it has not been tolerated each time you do it. Your theology leaves A LOT to desire as sound, so please don't be mad at me for correcting your twisted views of the word friend. I have never called you brother and will never do so until you tell me you are born again.

Produce one shred of prove for your claims Sir, ohh that it's right, you can't, cause you are lying as your father lies.

Why are you here? What is your purpose for being here AKA Raj?

The Lord bless you Sir.
David
By the sword you live and by the sword you die.

This is not a site where you come to offend people it will not be tolerated as it has not been tolerated each time you do it. Your theology leaves A LOT to desire as sound, so please don't be mad at me for correcting your twisted views of the word friend. I have never called you brother and will never do so until you tell me you are born again.

What is this if it is not a personal attack on Raj.
Do you know his heart. Are you God , David?
Is Raj born again, that is between him and God, not you.

You never miss an opportunity here to push your own twisted cult and yet you have the audacity to call others twisted.
AAG is meant to be a forum for all views not just the David Show Church.
You are a bigot and a character assasin David Valesquez.
I have read through this discussion and even back 10 months ago when you first came on here people were saying that you failed to make your point and resorted to personal attacks on their character.


Produce one shred of prove for your claims Sir, ohh that it's right, you can't, cause you are lying as your father lies.

You have called Raj, satan here. How much more of a personal attack can there be??
I ask the question of you David. Why are you here?
As a wolf amongst God's sheep I suspect. Spreading the lies of your cult.

People have had enough on this site of the rubbish above where you have attacked Raj.
He is a brother in Christ and should be treated with that respect.
You sir are a bully.

Rod

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