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When was the Holy Spirit Given?
This question came up in my reading of Psalms, where in 51:11, David says: Do not cast me from your presence or take your Holy Spirit from me.
So I looked up information on this:
John 7:39
The Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.
Acts 1:16
... which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake....
Luke 1:15, 41, 67
He [John the Baptist] shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb. (v.15)
Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost. (v.41)
Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost. (v.67)
Now there's a whole lot more in both new and old, but this gives an idea of what I'm questioning.
So I thought, perhaps the Holy Spirit was there, but the "infilling" was what happened in the N.T. But then I go back to John 7:39.
I can't seem to find enough online to explain this and was wondering if anyone had any insight into what this might mean.
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Carla on
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The Holy Spirit would empower and fill OT 'believers' for a time specific to a purpose.
However, in the NT, we are sealed for the day of redemption and eternally.
Ephesians 4
30 Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, [a]by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.To 'grieve' means to afflict with sorrow, to cause grief or offend. We could also say it means to 'break His heart'. We are the one's whom He inhabits, and we are the source of His joy.We are told the behaviours which grieve Him in Ephesians 4:31,3231 Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. 32 Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven [x]you.So the question may be... If we grieve the Holy Spirit does He leave us?I would answer 'no'... it does not mean that He leaves us. It means that we are causing the Holy Spirit pain and hurt.. He will continue to hurt until we repent from the sin causing His hurt. We get rid of it through confession and repentance. Every known sin must be repented of. If it is not a known sin, than we may ask to make it known. Once He makes it known to us, confess it and repent. If we are unwilling to face it, it is not possible to repent from it. I believe we must be specific when confessing sins. Nothing is worth what sin can give us compared to what it can take away from us. In the OT the Holy Spirit would leave people, but in the NT this all changed in Acts 2.We pour out our confessions (Galatians 5:16-26, psalm 62:8)once we confess we must actively accept God's forgiveness.We must be filled with The Spirit. we must pray that God would fill every empty place with His Holy Spirit....few conditions put us at greater risk than emptiness or loneliness.We must then pour forth the Holy Spirit and dare to live as a forgiven person...a child of God. God can do His part to forgive, rise up and walk in His forgiveness and freedom.Here are some other verses which speak to the truth that we are sealed and He will never leave us.John 1415 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be[c] in you.Ephesians 113 In [q]Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also [r]believed, you were sealed in [s]Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is [t]given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.2 Corinthians 121 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, 22 who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a [l]pledgeEphesians 4:30 ( see above)John 7:39 says this:39 But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.John 16:7 says this:7 But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the [a]Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.The Holy Spirit was sent after that because Jesus WAS glorified. John 7:39 is simply saying that the Holy Spirit was not YET GIVEN because Jesus was not glorified YET.. but then He was glorified, and then the Spirit was given. See Acts 2. He will never leave us or forsake us. Hebrews 13:5.Blessings, Carla
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Permalink Reply by Richard L. Broch, Sr. on
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Hi Char,
A good deep, interesting subject you have introduced here. Amen.
Let me start with the statement - I agree part, parcel, and with every detail that LT has posted at this point.
Now Char, some of your thoughts: What about those who do want God's will, are not engaging in sin and are saved, but are still be (sic) renewed and transformed ? They may have trouble understanding exactly how to work with the Holy Spirit or how to deal with these kinds of questions.
Galatians, Chapter 5 : 16, "But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh."
Check out verse 17, "For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please."
Verses 25 & 26: "If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. Let us not become boastful, challenging one another, envying one another."..............hello?
If we "walk by the Spirit", we'll be doing what Jesus said for us to do if we want to follow Him. Luke 9:23: ".........if anyone wishes to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me." (DAILY).
I understand Galatians 17 to tell us that there is a continuous internal battle going on with our old baggage, and any new stuff trying to get a foothold, doing battle with our in-dwelling Holy Spirit.
I believe this is part of the Sanctification Period.........which will probably continue for the rest of our lives.
The Holy Spirit is our Helper, Advocate, Comforter, Intercessor, and Encourager during all this.
Grace and Peace.
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Permalink Reply by Seek on
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Sorry Richard, but that simply doesn't address the issue I'm trying to figure out. Let's try it this way...what are the desires of the flesh?
I've desired things but I won't because I'm waiting for God to do some things. Yet in that waiting, I keep wondering if He truly will, if I'm truly in His will, if I'm missing something. I stress and pray, but the stress doesn't go. I give it to God, ask Him to take it, yet it doesn't go. I try to read scripture, yet the stress remains. I worry on it. I try to think on other things, but it comes back again and again. Yes, I know...whatsoever things are lovely. In my mind, I can think on something lovely just to have it overlaid with worry....sort of two thoughts at once at times. I don't know if that can make any sense to anyone who has never dealt with it.
In my stress, I overeat comfort food, or sugar to give energy as the stress brings up depression brings up exhaustion. Then I feel like crap cause I didn't have self control enough not to overeat. I am hit by a load of stressful things one after the other and ultimately I might snap, break down and cry or get irritable with some person in some tech support telling me once again they can't help me, or dropping the connection yet again. Then I feel terrible that I couldn't control my irritation any better. Yet I prayed that morning that God would guide everything I do that day. But I'm sure He was NOT guiding me getting irritated or breaking into sobs.
If that's sanctification and will happen the rest of my life, there's no way I can mentally deal with it. I can keep telling myself God's working, and I can literally see it. But when that depressive cloud comes over me, I can't see it anymore. It's a weight that won't life and I'm so mentally exhausted, there's no more ability to battle the thoughts. There's no fight left in me at those times. And when I finally come up out of those depressive pits, I then feel terrible that I wasn't able to keep out of it, control it, and that I had the thoughts I did have.
When I'm not in depression, I can tell the Holy Spirit is there at times. Not always, but there's moments where I just know He is. But I keep wondering why the depression continues then if He's with me and guiding me.
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Permalink Reply by Amanda on
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Seek,
It's important to look at words and their meanings and while some may say it's simply semantics, I believe it's more of a matter of linguistics, which is "the scientific study of language and its structure, including the study of morphology, syntax, phonetics, and semantics" and there are several different branches of linguistics, including historical-comparative linguistics and applied linguistics.
Doubt and unbelief differ in much the same way that trust is not the same as faith. What you are describing here fits what I've learned in my studies of doubt and unbelief to be doubt, and yours, like my own, is a type of feeling that is more an involuntary state of the mind and is not what the Bible sternly denounces as unbelief.
I won't get into the definitions of unbelief, disbelief, misbelief, and doubt and various examples of each that I've pinpointed in Scriptures, but I will say there is a difference in what you are going through as compared to what the man who said "I believe, help my unbelief" was going through when he said those words. This man was just coming to faith in Christ being able, and not asking if Christ was willing. The man said, "if you can" and this is quite different from "if you will" and Jesus rebuked them all as an "unbelieving generation." The unbelief encompassed far more than just what Christ was willing to do. If you notice, Jesus was calling the teachers that were arguing an unbelieving generation, not the disciples with whom they were arguing. There is a difference in doubt and unbelief, and I know you know Christ can, but doubt if He will.
Here's the passage:
Jesus Heals a Boy Possessed by an Impure Spirit
14 When they came to the other disciples, they saw a large crowd around them and the teachers of the law arguing with them. 15 As soon as all the people saw Jesus, they were overwhelmed with wonder and ran to greet him.
16 “What are you arguing with them about?” he asked.
17 A man in the crowd answered, “Teacher, I brought you my son, who is possessed by a spirit that has robbed him of speech. 18 Whenever it seizes him, it throws him to the ground. He foams at the mouth, gnashes his teeth and becomes rigid. I asked your disciples to drive out the spirit, but they could not.”
19 “You unbelieving generation,” Jesus replied, “how long shall I stay with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring the boy to me.”
20 So they brought him. When the spirit saw Jesus, it immediately threw the boy into a convulsion. He fell to the ground and rolled around, foaming at the mouth.
21 Jesus asked the boy’s father, “How long has he been like this?”
“From childhood,” he answered. 22 “It has often thrown him into fire or water to kill him. But if you can do anything, take pity on us and help us.”
23 “‘If you can’?” said Jesus. “Everything is possible for one who believes.”
24 Immediately the boy’s father exclaimed, “I do believe; help me overcome my unbelief!” Mark 9
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Well it's the doubting if He will that I want so much to get rid of and don't know how to. I don't know if that brings on the depression or if the depression causes the doubting. Either way is no fun.
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To add to that, it's the doubting if He "will" that makes me wonder whether or not the Holy Spirit is guiding me, which simply causes another struggle of it's own.
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I feel similar and there are times when I believe my requests of God are in alignment with His will, but I know that many times we come to God asking for what we want when Jesus taught that we are to come to the Father asking what He wants -- "Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven" Matthew 6:10.
That's the tough part and I believe that is where "surrender" is accomplished. I believe it's what makes surrender so difficult. I mean why wouldn't healing be in line with His will? Well ... there are reasons why since many aren't healed.
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I ask, yet I get no clear answers. The answer I "do" get is always futuristic, that He "is" healing me, that it "will" get better, etc. And that just brings more anxiety cause it's the here and now I can't seem to keep coping with. I just ask if He's not ready to take me to a better season if He can just somehow give me peace and joy in this one, show me how to be content with it and not stress over it. But so far, I get no answer to that either.
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I identify very much with the "futuristic" part and have recently been struggling to understand and talk it through to get God's POV.
In a recent discussion, I said that people often quote James 4:8. We can accept suffering a little easier when we know we sinned and it's the consequences. In another discussion, I asked about God breaking people, and I think that's where a lot of the confusion surfaces. It's like God is more concerned about our future well being rather than our present pain. And when tomorrow is today, God will still be more concerned about who we need to become, and on and on until our spirit returns to God.
I think, for me personally, it means that I'll never have God's favor or approval in the present but it can be only a future hope, and I'll always suffer, and anything that someone does to me now, or did in the past, was a discipline from God just for being a fallen human -- any good thing is a gift undeserved and any bad thing is a discipline for being fallen. Like suffering years of abuse as a child for being fallen and living in a fallen world with fallen people, and then suffering now from past memories of all of that abuse, and this now is a punishment for sins I committed when I was single and very rebellious -- wanting to hurt God intentionally, angry at God, being promiscuous, etc. And those sins also brought me future discipline, this current depression included.
I wonder and get angry and express that anger to God asking questions like Does God really want me to see who I am in Christ, or just remind me how far short I am as a fallen human? That's all I see. Even though I desire to know God and to be known by Him, I can't see my identity in Christ because I keep getting shown how bad Amanda is and how much Amanda needs to change.
Seek, I'm not trying to deflect from your situation but hoping that you won't feel so alone in this struggle. I believe many are in it. Sadly.
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I don't feel alone in it, but I just wonder when that "struggle" will cease and those pits of depression make it impossible for me to think that it ever will while they are hitting me. And then I feel awful to have thought that way. I'm under so much stress and for so long now, fighting a battle in my mind along with it just wears me out and I have nothing left to fight with at those times.
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