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Trinity
I want to know more about the existences of this trinity and some fact to proof it from the scripture. Thanks
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Hellofull on
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You said:
Their assumption was not fully correct and He corrected the part that was missing in their assumption. This is about understanding the resurrection and the resurrected body. Put the two events in their context and there is no confusion.
That's your own assumption of their assumption. That's what makes things confusing. Why not stick to what is written.
They thought Christ was a spirit... and they were corrected by Christ by showing that He is not, showing His flesh and bones.
Christ being God clothed with flesh and bones, is another assumption. not written in the scriptures.
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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on
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Was God walking amongst us or not?
MT 1:23 "The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel" --which means, "God with us."
Did God come as a babe or is the Scripture in error?
ISA 9:6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Was God Jesus clothed in flesh and bones?
PHP 2:6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
PHP 2:7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
PHP 2:8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death-- even death on a cross! (Emphasis mine)
If Jesus were only man, why would have to appear as a man? Could it be that God chose to take on human flesh and appear as a man?
Regardig my supposed assumption. Was Jesus spirit only or was He also flesh? Did Jesus have a spirit too if He were only a man? Pretty clear He is both and not just a spirit or only flesh. You have a spirit in you as do I. Do you deny that God can take on flesh if He chose to? Clearly they assumed as written in Scripture that He was a spirit and in fact He was in the resurrected flesh that contains a spirit, does it not? Now we can debate whether the spirit is God or a spirt of man as given by God. Either way He was both flesh and spirit, no assumption there.
There is nothing more for me to say. You keep going in circles trying to find a loophole that you can use to support your view. May your quest for truth lead you to the author.
LT
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LT
Was God walking amongst us or not?
MT 1:23 "The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel" --which means, "God with us."
You have quoted the verse yourself. It is not written in Matthew 1:23 that Christ is a God walking amongst us. What's written is that the child will be called Immanuel. The meaning of such name is God with us. The child will be called Immanuel does not mean the child is God. Such interpretation is way beyond what is written. Not because the child's name is Immanuel (God with us), he is already God. Elijah (Lord is God), Elisha (God is Salvation) and Daniel (God is Judge) are not Gods but they have a name about God.
Did God come as a babe or is the Scripture in error?
ISA 9:6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
You have quoted the prophecy yourself. The Holy Scripture is not in error, it's inspired by God (II Tim. 3:15-17). Isa. 9:6 did not told us anything about God sending Himself as a babe. What's written is about a child who will be called by the name "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace". Again, not because the child has a name about God--the Everlasting Father, the child is already God.
Was God Jesus clothed in flesh and bones?
PHP 2:6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
PHP 2:7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
PHP 2:8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death-- even death on a cross! (Emphasis mine)
If Jesus were only man, why would have to appear as a man? Could it be that God chose to take on human flesh and appear as a man?
You have quoted the scripture from the New International Version. There's nothing about Christ being a man and a God at the same time. Knowing what your belief about God is, I will have to assume that what you are saying about this verse is a rhetorical question.
What is the proof that the statement of Apostle Paul, "being found in the appearance of man" does not mean that Christ is a man and a God at the same time.?
"And being recognized as truly human, He humbled Himself and even stooped to die; and that too a death on the cross." (Philppians 2:8, The New Testament in Modern Speech)
What is being referred to by Apostle Paul that Christ appeared as a man?
"For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh" (Romans 8:3 NKJV, emphasis mine).
Christ appeared as a sinner, it was said as such because Christ never sinned (I Pet. 2:21-22). He was just made to be sin for us (II Corinthians 5:21 NKJV)
That's what we can read in the Bible.
About your second question, "Could it be that God chose to take on human flesh and appear as a man?"
From what you have quoted, there's nothing about God taking on human flesh and appear as a man. This is what we can read in the Bible:
I will not execute the fierceness of My anger; I will not again destroy Ephraim. For I am God, and not man, The Holy One in your midst; And I will not come with terror. (Hoseas 11:9 NKJV)
"For I am the LORD, I do not change; Therefore you are not consumed, O sons of Jacob. (Malachi 3:6 NKJV)
Every good endowment and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change. (James 1:17 RSV)
What we can read in the Bible is that God do not change, no variation, nor shadow due to change... much more take on a human flesh.
Let's quote it in Greek, using the Interlinear Translation:
"hos en morphe theo huparchon, ouch harpagmon (who in [the] form of God subsisting not rapine) hegesto to einai isa theo." (emphasis mine)
"Morphe" means form in english. Synonym to the Greek word "Eikon" meaning "image". That is why the King James Version rendered this verse as such:
"Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: (Philippians 2:6, KJV, emphasis mine)
What is the equivalent of Apostle Paul's statement, "That Christ is the form of God?"
Apostle Paul proves that Christ is the image of God (II Corinthians 4:4). The fact that Christ is the image of God all the more proves that He is a man and not God. Because God created man in His own image (Gen. 1:27).
Regardig my supposed assumption. Was Jesus spirit only or was He also flesh? Did Jesus have a spirit too if He were only a man? Pretty clear He is both and not just a spirit or only flesh. You have a spirit in you as do I. Do you deny that God can take on flesh if He chose to? Clearly they assumed as written in Scripture that He was a spirit and in fact He was in the resurrected flesh that contains a spirit, does it not? Now we can debate whether the spirit is God or a spirt of man as given by God. Either way He was both flesh and spirit, no assumption there.
There is nothing more for me to say. You keep going in circles trying to find a loophole that you can use to support your view. May your quest for truth lead you to the author.
I am not looking for loopholes, but if you believed that your doctrine has loopholes shouldn't you be alarmed. The true Gospel of Christ has no loopholes. What Christ preached was the words of God--the Father (John 12:49). I don't see any loopholes in the words of God, if by loopholes you mean errors or any contradictions.
Helloful
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I'm not telling you something new. It's something the prophets, the apostles, and Christ taught.
Mal. 2:10
I Cor. 8:6
John 17:1-3
There is only one God, the Father.
Hellofull
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John 20:28-29
John 20:28-29 (NASB)
28 Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!" 29 Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed."
John 20:28-29 (KJV)
28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. 29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
John 20:28-29 (NIV)
28 Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!" 29 Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
John 8:58-59
John 8:58-59 (NASB)
58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." 59 Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the temple.
John 8:58-59 (KJV)
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. 59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
John 8:58-59 (NIV)
58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" 59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.
Matthew 28:19
Matthew 28:19 (NASB)
19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
Matthew 28:19 (KJV)
MT 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Matthew 28:19 (NIV)
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Philippians 2:5-11
Philippians 2:5-11 (NASB)
5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE SHOULD BOW, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Philippians 2:5-11 (KJV)
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. 12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Philippians 2:5-11 (NIV)
5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, 7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death-- even death on a cross! 9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Isaiah 9:6-7
Isaiah 9:6-7 (NASB)
6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. 7 There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom, To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness From then on and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this.
Isaiah 9:6-7 (KJV)
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
Isaiah 9:6-7 (NIV)
6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.7 Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the LORD Almight will accomplish this.
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John 20:28-29
John 20:28-29 (NASB)
28 Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!" 29 Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed."
John 20:28-29 (KJV)
28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. 29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
John 20:28-29 (NIV)
28 Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!" 29 Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
Thomas was rebuked, he needs to see the Lord first before he believes that He (Christ) was resurrected from the dead (John 20:25). He was mistaken, just like the other apostles.
John 20:25 NKJV
"The other disciples therefore said to him, "We have seen the Lord." So he said to them, "Unless I see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe."
Mark 16:13-14 NKJV
13And they went and told it to the rest, but they did not believe them either. 14Later He appeared to the eleven as they sat at the table; and He rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen.
It was in this condition (Thomas did not believe that Christ was resurrected from the dead) that Thomas said, "My Lord and My God," They were rebuked of their unbelief. John 20:28 has nothing to do with the teaching that Christ is God, it's all about Christ's resurrection.
The resurrection of Christ from the dead, all the more proves that He is not God,
Because it was God who resurrected Christ.
Acts 4:10 NKJV
"let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole."
The one who raised someone is different from that someone who was raised. God who raised Christ from the dead is different from Christ who was raised by God.
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John 8:58-59
John 8:58-59 (NASB)
58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." 59 Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the temple.
John 8:58-59 (KJV)
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. 59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
John 8:58-59 (NIV)
58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" 59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.
Christ indeed was foreknown by God, even before Abraham:
Explanation by the Bible:
“Foreknown, indeed, before the foundation of the world, he has been manifested in the last times for your sakes.” (I Pet. 1:20, Confraternity Version)
Wrong and unbiblical interpretation of adherents to Christ-is-God doctrine:
God is "I am",
Christ says "I am"
Therefore Christ is God
"Fallacy of Equivocation"
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JN 5:36 "I have testimony weightier than that of John. For the very work that the Father has given me to finish, and which I am doing, testifies that the Father has sent me. 37 And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, 38 nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent. 39 You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life. (NIV)
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Permalink Reply by Carla on
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John 5:36
and again, and in His Grace and by the power of His Spirit we say to you, hellofull,
JN 5:36 "I have testimony weightier than that of John. For the very work that the Father has given me to finish, and which I am doing, testifies that the Father has sent me. 37 And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, 38 nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent. 39 You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life. (NIV)
Helloful,
I would like to know how long you have been studing the scriptures? You seem very religious!!! Jesus calls us to a life that has nothing to do with religion. What church do you go to? Do you think that only a certain denomination will receive eternal life? Does your belief involve that there is a certain 'work' that you have to do to receive Eternal Life?
There is freedom in Christ!
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Permalink Reply by ScribeD on
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"No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
(1 John 2:23)
It's really interesting Helloful how you can post the very scriptures that should demonstrate the Deity of Christ to you, yet you refuse to see it. How is it that you can refuse so vehemently, when the truth is staring you in the face every moment??
Your construct leaves you with so many problems, so many theological holes, it's amazing that you can't see it. You have embraced a logical fallacy and then claim that Christ has given us a "fallacy of equivocation"; when it is abundantly clear that Jesus intended to equate himself as co-equal with the Father in nature, and only subserviant in role. For this very reason, the Pharisees and Scribes repeatedly attempted to stone him for blasphemy.
Yet you call his claims fallacious!
It makes me wonder what little empire you are defending. What is your affiliation? Why are you here? You are obviously a leader of this heretical set of doctrines; and you have spent years creating a construct that allows you to dodge facts and twist logic to validate your pretexts.
What is the name of your group? Did one of your flock find this site and jump ship when they realized your little construct has too many flaws? Are you trying to impress someone that you can take on this loose band of Trinitarian rabble and vanquish us? Is this taking a lot of your time away from the group you lead, or are you using these conversations as material for your messages?
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Matthew 28:19
Matthew 28:19 (NASB)
19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
Matthew 28:19 (KJV)
MT 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Matthew 28:19 (NIV)
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Explanation by the Bible:
John 14:26 NKJV
26But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.
John 15:26 NKJV
26"But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me.
John 14:28 NKJV
28You have heard Me say to you, 'I am going away and coming back to you.' If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, 'I am going to the Father,' for My Father is greater than I.
John 13:16 NKJV
16Most assuredly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master; nor is he who is sent greater than he who sent him.
The one sent is not greater than the one who sends(John 13:16), Christ and the Father sends the Holy Spirit. (John 14:26; 15;26). The Father is greater than Christ (John 14:28)
Wrong and unbiblical interpretation of adherents to Christ-is-God doctrine:
The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are person of Trinity/Triune. 3 in 1 God.
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