All About GOD - Growing Relationships with Jesus and Others
Just Do It
I just read a devotion that can be like a good smack upside the head:
It stated that religion is dangerous and would rather debate an issue than do something about it. They said we shouldn't get you sidetracked into a religious debate or get all hung up on theological questions. That the difference between religion and the love of God is that religion argues while love acts.
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Permalink Reply by Amanda on
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Was the woman in Luke 13 possessed or oppressed? In the KJV, it says she'd had a spirit of infirmity for 18 years and Jesus told her she was "loosed" from her infirmity and laid hands on her. Then, in verse 14, it was being said by others that Jesus had "healed" on the sabbath day, referring to what had taken place concerning the woman. Was a demon cast out of her or was she healed? Is there a difference between "demon" and "spirit of infirmity?"
Saint Paul's thorn in the flesh is often viewed as demonic oppression but I've seen many refer to it as having been a physical affliction, such as diseased eyes.
Also, we're all familiar with Job. Satan did attack Job's health.
I believe in God's sovereignty. If demons are permitted to cause mental and physical illness in a born again believer, it would have to be a form of divine discipline. I think that's what bothers me most regarding this topic, and I don't like talking about it. Even though I know God only has right motives, I have trouble understanding why God would allow this kind of suffering in His children. I understand the suffering of natural consequences for sinning, but I don't have the view that Saint Paul's thorn was a punishment for a sin he had committed. It seems more like a pre-emptive measure to keep Paul from developing a sinful attitude.
In the case of oppression being a form of divine discipline, no one could, by their own will as a believer "deliver" someone from the situation since it would be God's will that someone is in the situation.
However, God might be deciding to "loose" the person from the situation and to perform the action through another believer who lays hands on the person, the way Christ did.
There's so many things to think about. Perhaps it's more of a matter of just trusting God as God finishes the work that God has begun in each person who belongs to Jesus. -
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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on
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Was the woman in Luke 13 possessed or oppressed? In the KJV, it says she'd had a spirit of infirmity for 18 years and Jesus told her she was "loosed" from her infirmity and laid hands on her. Then, in verse 14, It was being said by others that Jesus had "healed" on the sabbath day, referring to what had taken place concerning the woman. Was a demon cast out of her or was she healed? Is there a difference between "demon" and "spirit of infirmity?"
A evil spirit brought the infirmity. Evil spirits are recorded as causing all kinds of problems for people in Scripture. There is a difference between recognizing that a spirit can cause these things (will get into more detail in a moment*) and calling it a “Spirit of alcoholism” or a “spirit of lying” or a “spirit of _____.” It is a demonic spirit and they do wicked things. Trying to label them by what they can cause is not a good idea and has no real purpose. There is purpose to seek to identify whether an evil spirit is involved, but Satan does not sit around thinking about which spirit he will send from a catalogue of evil spirits.The NASB puts it this way:
Luk 13:11-12 NASB And there was a woman who for eighteen years had had a sickness caused by a spirit; and she was bent double, and could not straighten up at all. (12) When Jesus saw her, He called her over and said to her, "Woman, you are freed from your sickness."
* Once again the question is can a born again child of God be demon possessed? This woman is not a born again child of God indwelt with the Holy Spirit. Being called a child of Abraham is a common acknowledgement that she is a Jew/Hebrew, but Paul tells us in Romans 11 that being a Jew has benefit, but does not make one a child of God. Was she possessed or oppressed? The Bible does not clearly say, but it would appear as possession.
Saint Paul's thorn in the flesh is often viewed as demonic oppression but I've seen many refer to it as having been a physical affliction, such as diseased eyes.
No one knows what his problem was for sure. We do know that there is oppression (2 Cor. 12:7)
Also, we're all familiar with Job. Satan did attack Job's health.
Yes, Job was affected by Satan after God granted permission, but even here we do not see Job as being possessed.
I believe in God's sovereignty. If demons are permitted to cause mental and physical illness in a born again believer, it would have to be a form of divine discipline. I think that's what bothers me most regarding this topic, and I don't like talking about it.This is where people tend to separate on the issue, or at least one place. Not everything, in fact I am convinced very little, is caused by a direct action of a demonic being. We live in a fallen world, with fallen people, in the fallen flesh and there is an enemy who wars against us. The changes brought about by the fall and the subsequent consequences IMO account for many of the problems in life. God does not tell us that as children of God we will not experience problems of various nature. He does promise that He will go through them with us and that His grace will be sufficient for dealing with and overcoming the problems.
Even though I know God only has right motives, I have trouble understanding why God would allow this kind of suffering in His children. I understand the suffering of natural consequences for sinning, but I don't have the view that Saint Paul's thorn was a punishment for a sin he had committed. It seems more like a pre-emptive measure to keep Paul from developing a sinful attitude.
It is apparent that Paul had an issue with pride. Thus God was not dealing with per-emptively, but rather dealing with the root of his pride that already existed in him. God was seeking to keep it from manifesting itself and thus kept it under control.
In the case of oppression being a form of divine discipline, no one could, by their own will as a believer "deliver" someone from the situation since it would be God's will that someone is in the situation.Here is where discernment must come in, Is this oppression or just life in a fallen world?
However, God might be deciding to "loose" the person from the situation and to perform the action through another believer who lays hands on the person, the way Christ did.
Possible.
There's so many things to think about. Perhaps it's more of a matter of just trusting God as God finishes the work that God has begun in each person who belongs to Jesus.Amen
Lord Bless,
LT
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I think one of my fears is that oppression is part of life in a fallen world. Copeland is saying it doesn't matter if the demon is on the outside or the inside, but in both cases it's bondage and freedom is needed. If it's oppression, can deliverance always happen? Can we have the authority to free anyone whom we see oppressed or possessed?
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Permalink Reply by Carla on
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Hi Amanda,
I think we have to be very careful with this casting out of demons. Base on Matthew 12:43-45, if the demon finds the house 'unoccupied' it will be able to re-enter with seven other spirits more wicked than the first.
It would be very irresponsible of us to cast out a demon if the person is not indwelt by the Holy spirit. Very dangerous serious stuff here.
The way I think about it is...Tell them about Jesus and let Jesus do the casting out. Let Jesus do the filling. My job is to tell people about Jesus and to let them know He brings freedom, comfort, peace, healing and hope...not me.
I just think this is such a serious matter NOT to be taken lightly.
The person who is being set free needs Jesus immediately to fill him/her with The Holy Spirit.
Blessings, Carla
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At the time that Jesus spoke those words in Matthew 12, becoming spiritually alive through new birth wasn't available. I'm sure that such would be the case then for all whom were delivered from demons and spirits of infirmity, which could be the reason why Jesus would say things like, leave your life of sin, or, stop sinning or something worse will happen to you, etc.
Since new birth is now possible, anyone truly delivered from demons surely would be ready to respond to the Gospel, affirmatively, but I suppose them turning away from God is very possible, too. If that is the case, then whatever happens to them, happens, and it would seem that only they are to blame, not the one whom God used to help them find freedom.
We must keep in mind that some things did change between the ministry of the Lord before He died and was raised. God didn't change, but some ways in which God deals with people seem to have changed.
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Yes I would agree that the ministry has changed since Jesus' resurrection.
I don't understand how people refuse the gospel even if they don't need to be set free from demonic influence... But then again, at one time I refused Jesus too.
It wasn't until I saw my need for Him, and I repented and believed in Him...He delivered me and filled me with The Holy Spirit at that time.
Before I knew the Lord I was filled with shame... Jesus healed me.
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It makes me happy to know that you were delivered and then born again. At the same time, it's almost like saying those who still struggle with shame and didn't receive an instant or full healing of it, might not have received the new birth, either.
I really don't like talking about it. I think I'll stop here. Thanks for sharing and discussing. It's very important to talk about the things of God.
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Yes okay, we'll stop here.
I'll just say that everyone's experience of being born again is individual, and there is no healthful or helpful reason to compare one person's experience with another. We're individuals and God treats us that way.
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Are believers safe when around people who have a demon(s)? What happened to the seven sons of Sceva, does that happen to those who have the indwelling of Holy Spirit? Why did it happen to them?
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Permalink Reply by Mary O on
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Amanda, they didn't have Holy Spirit. They asked the demon to leave. Would the Apostle Paul do that? They went in and started a confrontation that they had no business starting. They didn't know what they were doing. Their dad was a Jew and chief of the priests. A person can have all the right credentials and pedigree, but their heart can be far from God.
Acts 19:11,12 is very important. It shows us a contrast. Some one who had Holy Spirit.
11 And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul:
12 So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.
Then we see how vagabonds came in. They wander from place to place without a home. I would have thought the sons of the chief of the priests would have had a home, but it says they were vagabonds, wandering or straying....
13 Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth.
14 And there were seven sons of one Sceva, a Jew, and chief of the priests, which did so.
15 And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye?
16 And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.
I hope this helps. I love you. :-)
Mary
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