Should women represent top-rank positions in churches?

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Permalink Reply by RoyW on September 30, 2010 at 9:18pm

Hmmm, pretty good thought.

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Permalink Reply by The Shearer. on October 1, 2010 at 1:37am

I have no problem at all with women praising God ,David ,we both know that we are all to praise our Most Holy Father,and no-one but no-one should ever try to stop another from doing so.The subject of this discussion is women ,holding top ranking positions in church.Seek the Truth brother ,God knows exactly what is in your heart!!!!........blessings from down under.

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Permalink Reply by Carla on October 1, 2010 at 10:06am

Hi Andrew,

Rightly defined the 'church' is the body of Christ. In that body there are many members...each one has their own part to play. Clearly scripture teaches that men should be holding the top rank positions in the church. But what if they will not? What if ...even worse than that, they claim there is no God? Who then? Will God raise a women up to rise to the occasion if she simply says 'Yes Lord...Here am I! ?'

I tell you God will use a women to do what a man ought to.
And if a women refuses ... then I believe the stones will cry out.

Luke 19:37 has much to do with Praise, But it goes far deeper than that. This is the Triumphal entry of the KING of Kings. This is the Messiah's public testimony. This is the 7th day of the Feast of Tabernacles. This also fulfilled prophecy Zech 9:9. Unfortunately they were still looking for their earthly conquering King..so they missed the mark.

Jhn 12:12 On the next day the large crowd who had come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem,
Jhn 12:13 took the branches of the palm trees and went out to meet Him, and began to shout, "Hosanna! BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD, even the King of Israel."

Hosanna in Greek means 'God Saves'
Hoshanal in Hebrew means 'Save us now'
These are the messianic greetings that the Nation is to say when the Messiah comes. The crowd is greeting their King. This is also the day of the setting aside of the sacrifical Lamb..there must be a public testimony that the Messiah has come. This even lasted for four days for the passover requirements... This event moves us into the Passover where Jesus is tested.


Here's part of an article to explain the Feast of Tabernacles:
Two things characterized the Feast of Tabernacle from the other feasts. One was the illumination of the Temple and the other the pouring of a vessel of water into a basin that was located at the base of the altar. First the golden vessel of water was filled at the pool of Sloam and taken to the altar. Next another golden vessel would be filled with wine and they both would be poured together into the basin. The mixed water and wine would flow down a conduit which carried the water to the Brook of Kidron located across from the eastern wall.
This was ritual symbolized the prayer for the Fall rains upon which Israel depended. Second it pictured the coming of the Messiah and His kingdom in which the Holy Spirit would be poured on Israel and believers of all nations. This ritual of water pouring was continued for six days and concluded the Feast of Tabernacles. This last day was called the “Day of the Great Hosanan” (Hoshannah Rabbah). The word “Hoshannah” means to “save now.” and applied to the feast became “Hosanna” which looked forward to the coming of the Messiah.

This makes the event of Jesus entering the city in what is called the ‘Triumphant Entry” come alive for us as we under its significance. John records in John 12:13 that as Jesus entered Jerusalem the people. “ Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord.” They were crying “Save us, Son of David.” Matthew 21:15 records the chief priest and scribes became gravely upset because this greeting and prayer was reserved only for the coming of the Messiah. Mark records that the people also cried “Blessed be the kingdom of our father David, that cometh in the name of the Lord: Hosanna in the highest.” (Mark 11:10).

Following His entry into Jerusalem Jesus went to the Temple and proclaimed “In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.” (John 7:38-39). The words “In the last day” means that this event occurred on the last day of the Feast of Tabernacles.

Another feature of the feast is was illumination of the Temple. The pilgrims who came to the Temple would bring lights and torches. Further the golden lamps stands would also be lighted illuminating the Temple. This too prophetically looked forward to the coming of the Messiah. Jesus the Messiah identified Himself as that saving light in John 8:12 saying “ Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.”

Paul when he arrived in Antioch in Pisidia (Asia) proclaim this truth to the Jews there saying, “For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth” (Acts 13:47). Paul preached that he was sent to take this light, which was the Gospel of Jesus Christ, unto all the world.
--end of article--

I hope you can see this is more than merely 'Praise'. God will indeed raise someone up for His purposes. God had planned for Israel to be the Nation to make Him known to all humanity..when they refused, they were hardened and blinded (2 Cor chapters 3 and 4), so He raised up the Gentiles to do it. Who of the Gentiles will do it?

Blessings, Carla

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Permalink Reply by RoyW on October 1, 2010 at 11:05am

I believe that is the Passover.

Permalink Reply by Carla on October 1, 2010 at 11:21am

Roy.. here's a link to the feasts and their meaning and timings..it's a short summary..
http://www.gotquestions.org/Jewish-feasts.html

Permalink Reply by RoyW on October 1, 2010 at 11:25am

I was talking about His triumphal entry coming six days before the Passover. I'm probably missing something.

Permalink Reply by Carla on October 1, 2010 at 11:36am

Roy, if you want to discuss this we can start another thread.

Permalink Reply by The Shearer. on October 1, 2010 at 10:24pm

Thanks Carla,i'm not sure how I will go with this cause i dont like to drag things on any more than I need to.http://niv.scripturetext.com/ecclesiastes/5.htm I did mention earlier about scriptures before or after Pauls letter to Timothy so we could get a grasp of what scriptures Paul knew about before his statement.You mentioned that.....''God will raise someone up for His purposes''...why would God have got Paul to say the things he did in 1 Timothy 2:11,12 ,if He was going to let women preach and not be silent? One would think that God would have given us clear instruction about this change ,later on in His Word. May The Lord keep you and bless you Carla.......your brother in Christ ...Andrew.

Permalink Reply by Carla on October 2, 2010 at 2:04am

Andrew, I agree with you. This was my second sentence of what I posted above: "Clearly scripture teaches that men should be holding the top rank positions in the church."

However, there are many women who held important roles in God's plan--this is shown to us throughout scripture. Ruth is one of them..http://www.gotquestions.org/life-Ruth.html
...but still, it has nothing to do with this topic. This of coarse is only one example of strong women in scripture.

However, what it does show, is that God will use women in unexpected ways at times.

Personally brother, I don't need to be a top ranking person in the church.. I'm just happy to be in in the church. :-)

I would like to see more men take the place that God designed for them to be in.

Blessings, Carla

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on October 1, 2010 at 10:54am

Andrew,

Right on brother - you got me on context on that one. True the verse is not dealing with woman in leadership positions, but rather with the fact that if humans cease to praise God, then the very stones will cry out.

However I do see a connection to the topic at hand, I will not force the text to say something it does not, but it does tell me in a sense that if the being that was given the ability to reason does not praise the Lord then creation itself, which groans for its redemption, will cry out. We know that the heavens declare the His glory.

So with that in mind, if God does not get the praise from man He is so worthy of by the preaching of the Gospel, in my mind at least, it would seem logical that Godly woman who are certainly well equipped to bring God praise, will do so.

Bringing God praise and glory envelops numerous activities, but the verse is not dealing in any way with the topic of woman teaching or preaching that much is clear. I see a very indirect connection to the topic at hand, but a connection none the less.

Excellent post my brother. Love you.

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Permalink Reply by The Shearer. on October 1, 2010 at 10:52pm

Thanks for the encouragement Dave ,I am not someone who likes to cause any friction at all ,though it seems I keep finding myself amongst it .I just like to see the Truth upheld,and when I get a gut feeling about something ,i feel it is the Spirit moving in me ,and I dont take this feeling lightly ,so I allways try my best to refrain from any quick responses in the case I cause myself to fall flat on my face.One of the most serious and easy mistakes to make while dragging discussions on is ,how the devil can move in unawares and change the scriptures.It is not my joy at all to put anyone down ,but to use a good example of this we just have to go back a couple of pages to a statement Roy made about women being tough(sorry Roy) If you compare what he said to scripture ,you can see how things can get misrepresented.I am suprised that it wasnt picked up ealier by another reader. David ,I would just say to you ,to please be careful when you say ''in my mind at least'', about something being logical,for these reasons :-http://bible.cc/proverbs/3-5.htm......and......http://bible.cc/prov... I hope and pray we are all learning something from this,many blessings bro,and I still love you all...Andrew.

Permalink Reply by RoyW on October 2, 2010 at 4:14am

Andrew,

You are suggesting that I am misleading people. This would be the last thing I would want to do. My suggestion is that God does use women in the ministry. However, the Lord knows my heart that I would never want to question His Word and thus cannot explain everything in Scripture especially the verse in 1 Timothy. I can tell you that the treatment of women around the middle of the 1st century was such that if the women took leadership roles in the church, it would be offensive to many. Could that be the reason for Paul's statement? That, I will leave to each individual. Concerning the attitude towards women, let me give you an example:

On the Day of Pentecost there were 120 present in the upper room. Were those only men? What happened on that day? We are told that the Spirit of God came upon them and they all spoke with other tongues. Were these only men? Did God only give this gift to the men or did He give this gift to women as well? The verses preceding Acts 2 indicates to me that there were probably women present there on that day. However a strict interpretation as you are suggesting would say that only the men actually received the gift. Notice what Luke reports from the scene:

Ac 2:5-7 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking in his own language. 7 Utterly amazed, they asked: "Are not all these men who are speaking Galileans? NIV

Were there just men speaking in other tongues? It certainly seems to indicate so, doesn't it? Did God only give this gift to men?

Notice what Peter said later:

Ac 2:14-15 Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: "Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say. 15 These men are not drunk, as you suppose. It's only nine in the morning! NIV

So far, I see only the men being acknowledged. I see no women being acknowledged as even being there. Your strict interpretation, which by the way I am not criticizing, would indicate that this gift is only designed for men since the purpose on that day was to inspire the recipients to declare the wonders of God. But were there any women there on that day? I can tell you that just days before this event there were women present in that upper room:

Ac 1:12-14 Then they returned to Jerusalem from the hill called the Mount of Olives, a Sabbath day's walk from the city. 13 When they arrived, they went upstairs to the room where they were staying. Those present were Peter, John, James and Andrew; Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew; James son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot, and Judas son of James. 14 They all joined together constantly in prayer, along with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brothers. NIV

Here, we are told that they ALL joined constantly in prayer, including the women. I am led to believe that there were actually women present in that room just a few days later. The question then is, did God give this gift to the women as well or did He just give this gift to the men? I can certainly see that the only ones that were reported by Luke to be speaking in tongues were men.

Andrew, were the women just observers in this event? Why did God give the gift on that day? He clearly was empowering those that day to preach the Gospel that He had so clearly directed them to do. In fact, when Jesus told the disciples to take this Gospel to the whole world, was that direction to the disciples only or to all those who would read those same words? Are women included in the direction that they were all to be witnesses to Him?

However, back to that day. The 120 present were all filled with the Holy Spirit. I personally believe there were women present and that they were also filled. You might think differently and you would certainly be justified in that all that were acknowledged were the men. The gifts of the Spirit did not end on that day. He continued to give gifts to those to give them power to speak in tongues, prophecy, etc. Again, Andrew, were these gifts only for the men?

Andrew, I really do believe there were women there that day that also spoke in tongues even though only men were acknowledged. But, please note, the prophecy of this event is found in Joel. Peter, even though only acknowledging the men, quoted the prophecy:

Ac 2:17-18

17 "'In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
18 Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy. NIV

These verses come from Joel 2:28-29. Andrew, there it is. God promised that He would pour His Spirit out on that day on both men and women, both sons and daughters would prophesy. This is why I believe that His Spirit was poured out upon both men and women, not just men as the verses acknowledge.

Andrew, if God did indeed pour out His Spirit upon the women as well (as I think He did but you may not think so), why did He do so? What was His purpose for giving them this power? The purpose is clearly defined for us by Jesus Himself. He said:

Ac 1:8
8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth." NIV

Andrew, what was the purpose of this power? The purpose is obvious: to be witnesses unto Him throughout the entire earth. Was this power only given to men? That is a question that you will have to answer for yourself and then deal with the implication of that. Your interpretation of Scripture would indicate to me that this power would only be poured out upon men. However, if He did pour out this power upon women also, how can you tell them to be silent? How is it possible to be empowered to witness and then remain silent?

Andrew, God bless you. You are joining many others in your instruction telling women to be silent. I believe there is more to it than you are seeing. If I am wrong and you do have the spiritual authority to tell women to be silent, please forgive me. I love His Word. I can read it just like you. However, am I incorrect in my thinking or just seeing a bigger picture? Is it possible that Paul was addressing a different problem than women preaching the good news of Jesus Christ?

Does God empower women to proclaim His Word? I think He does. Your gracious attack on me for my post was in love and I received it as such. I appreciate your concern. You do not want me to be going against His Word. I am grateful for your concern. I don't want in any way to go against what He has said. However, since I do believe that God empowers women by His Spirit to proclaim His Word, I wonder if we are interpreting correctly the verse that tells them to remain silent. Your strict interpretation would have to come to the conclusion that God does not empower women with His Spirit with these special gifts to prophecy, etc. Since it is impossible because of Scripture to come to that conclusion, you have to go back to Paul's instruction to seek to understand him in light of your now knowledge that God does indeed empower women to prophesy (declare His wonders) to the world.

However, let me say once more that I do appreciate you love and concern for me that I not be misrepresenting His Word. Andrew, are you still confident that God wants all women to be silent? If so, I will give some more of His Word. I think it behooves us to seek instruction from His entire Word to better understand His instruction.

God bless you,
Roy

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