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Should women represent top-rank positions in churches?
Please respond to this in kindness. I'm obviously a woman and do not subscribe to chauvinistic ideology. However, I DO believe the Bible reveals a natural order that signifies God's original intention and purpose for His created.
Happy discussing! ;)
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on
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>>.....foolish cultural topics
This is the thing. People make statements like the one you just made. Then along comes a David and holds you accountable for that statement and I ask as gentle and politely as possible. Ok - Sister Pam that is an opinion among many opinions. How do you back it up scripturally? Ohhhh David who do you think you are? How dare you be so divisive? We have moderators for that! Etc. What? It is a simple question if you are not ready to back up what you believe with scripture....
1 Tim. 2:12-13, "But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. 13 For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve."
Titus 1:4, "For this reason I left you in Crete, that you might set in order what remains, and appoint elders in every city as I directed you, 6 namely, if any man be above reproach, the husband of one wife, having children who believe, not accused of dissipation or rebellion."
The verses clearly teach a woman is not to teach or exercise authority over a man because Adam was created first, thereby making it a doctrinal mandate, not a cultural one. In the second verse, Paul tells Titus to appoint men as elders. So, we can clearly see that the Bible teaches it is the man who are to be an authority in the Church.
Now - I have given you my reasoning for my biblical opinion, what is yours? You will probably remind me that you don't discuss this sort of topics for they are foolish - ok then why speak as you have of a healthy discussion?
Please show me where the topic has gotten out of hand.
As I stated in one of my previous post's. The senior pastor of the fellowship I belong to is a woman. The fellowship has more than a thousand churches around the world, but she has never chosen a woman as a Pastor. She became the pastor after her husband died, who was the president and head pastor of the fellowship. I understand that God does use woman in roles that truly are meant for man. His word establishes the order for the home and church.
We are all equal, but we have different responsibilities at home and at church. Woman can pastor woman and teach woman.
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Permalink Reply by RoyW on
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David,
I have made a few comments on this forum as it is called. I think the forum here is critical especially if a woman is seeking to become a pastor of a church due to Scriptural mandate. I have stated that I believe that sometimes God calls a woman and ordains her for service. However, I am very aware of the Scripture that says He does not allow a woman to teach or have authority over a man. I am not going to be divided over the subject. However, I think there was a post from MOP somewhere that has great wisdom. She said:
If I went to church and found it to have a female preaching and if she was preaching the word I would be ok with it. But if her husband was sitting there and him also a preacher I would find it more comfortable him as leader. Why? Because I believe that the man should be the head of his family and of the church. Because of the scripture mentioned in this forum. Hope i dont offend anyone . I was reminded in a message about these forums and so here I am and Im reading and trying to be alert again and these forums help...
Priceless!
There is an order given by God in Scripture. I think it would be better for us to follow that order as closely as we possibly can. If God raises up a woman to do a certain job such as the woman missionaries I spoke of in another place, I am not going to sit by and argue with God about it. It is still His church and I am only one member but I am a member. I look first to the Kingdom message of Christ. How does this discussion fit in with that. Is there a law out there that Christ intended to forbid women to hold office in the church? I personally think MOP hit the nail right smack dab on the head and said it better than any of us could.
I am edified by all this discussion as it makes us all go to the Word. I guess I do see some crucial problems in the church that are not being addressed. Hopefully, we eventually get to some of those as well.
God bless His church,
Roy
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We are in agreement Roy.
Mop - you Rock!! :)
Love you both.
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hahahaaha I might be half sleep.
>>I'm not saying if it's right or wrong as only God would know.
God has given us His word, so we can know.
>>In modern society, if a woman can become a prime minister or a president of a nation then why can't a woman hold a high ranking position in church?
Because the world, society, fashion, trends nor my likes or yours make up doctrine. Absolute truth found in the pages of the word of God determines our beliefs.
If we were to take the logic you are presenting and apply it elsewhere then homosexuality and drunkenness, which are widely accepted in the world, should be practices we should join in to, as well as abortion?
Do you see where that type of logic/belief would lead to? To the destruction of absolute truth and straight to relativism. A worldly philosophy.
Do you follow now? or must i wake up hahahaha and try again. hahaha
Pat i have never been mean to you or to any one for that matter that I can recall, so be nice.
Blessings
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Permalink Reply by Sharon Theresa Theil on
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St. Catherine of Siena is not only a Saint but also a Doctor of the Church. Hard to get any higher than that! In the 14th century, Catherine Benincasa of Siena, Italy, lived a life of prayer, study of Sacred Scriptures and Church traditions. St. Catherine of Siena has been named the “Doctor of Unity” because she convinced Pope Gregory XI to return to Rome in 1377 after being in Avignon, France for several years. She wrote to him these words of encouragement and challenge:
“Be a manly man…wanting to live in peace is often the greatest cruelty. When the boil has come to a head it must be cut with the lance and burned with fire and if that is not done, and only a plaster is put on it the corruption will spread and that is often worse than death. I wish to see you as a manly man so that you may serve the Bride of Christ (the church and its people) without fear, and work spiritually and temporally for the glory of God according to the needs of that sweet Bride in our times.”
Women have and still do represent top-rank positions in the Church without in anyway usurping men's roles as Presbyters and Deacons.
Peace,
Sharon
For full article please read "St. Catherine of Siena: Communicating the Gospel to the World"
in Truth Be Told the newspaper of the Dominican Laity, May-June 2010.
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In Christ all are equal. There is no difference. In the world there is a difference presenting a struggle that may take the Lord Himself to get it straight. However, if a woman has something from God for me, I want it. I don't care who the vessel is through whom it comes. The greatest gift I have ever received from God came through a woman and I am so glad she submitted to God's will. I know these comments are frivolous but I just want to go on record stating that if it weren't for the women of the church, the church would have been dead from the very beginning. Women are tough. While the men were hiding, the women were headed to the tomb. If I am in a fight against the enemy, I sure want the women right there by my side or me by theirs. When I run, they will be there to hold up the banner. Have you ever been at an abortion rally? Who do you think are the ones not afraid to speak up? Women are amazingly tough.
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I would like to tell you a story. One day Jesus was asking His disciples who people said He was. They replied some thought He was John the Baptist, Elijah or one of the prophets. Jesus, however, was wanting to know who they thought He was. Peter replied, "You are the Christ (Messiah) which means the anointed one. Jesus then began to teach them that His calling was to come and suffer many things - to be rejected by the Priests, the elders, etc., to be killed and to rise again. This kind of talk would not set well with His disciples. Their idea of His purpose was different than what was real. They really didn't understand His mission. Jesus understood that He was the Passover Lamb and that He was to be the offering for the sins of mankind. Now, let's go forward to an incident two days prior to the Passover. The priests are planning His death but determined that it would not happen during the Passover feast. That, however, was not the plan of God. This was the Lamb. This was not just an ordinary Passover; this was THE PASSOVER. Again Jesus explained that in two days, on the Passover, He was to be crucified (Matt 26).
Here we are, just two days before the greatest event in the history of all mankind. A major part of God's plan concerning His plan for humanity was about to be fulfilled. The Sacrifice was about to be made. The Anointed One was was about to perform the task for which He had been anointed. It has been said He had been anointed by John the Baptist and was certainly anointed by the Holy Spirit but just as David had been anointed King, it is apparent that an anointing for this great event still needed to take place on that day. But where were the Priests, the men called to do God's work? They were busy planning the highest tyranny of all history. Where then were the prophets? They were too busy speaking against the plan. At one time Peter, our beloved Apostle, had to be told, "Get behind me Satan." What is apparent in Scripture is that there is just some of the time we men can't get things straight. Maybe it's the way we are made or the way we think. Sometimes we don't get it. This was one of those times. But the job still needed to be done. As God has done all through the history of mankind, He turns to a woman to get the job done. This again was one of those times. A woman at the home of Simon the Leper on that day took a very expensive ointment and poured it on the head of our Savior and anointed Him. Maybe it wasn't a priest or someone operating in the prophetic office, a senior pastor or an elder of the church. However, this was a woman fulfilling a very high calling of God - an office of the highest order ordained to anoint the King of Kings and Lord of all Lords for the service He was about to fulfill. We don't know for sure who that woman was, some say it was Mary and others not. We don't know if her ordination for service was used in any other capacity, but for sure we know she was ordained for that day.
In the days of the beginning of the church, the Jewish men would rise and offer a prayer. They would thank God that they weren't born a dog, a Gentile or a woman. Jesus came to liberate the women from the extreme prejudice that came into existence through no intention of God. Why it happened, we may not know; but it did. But one thing for sure is that God has at many times ordained women for service. This is only one example. There are many. Another example was when Jesus commissioned the woman at the well to evangelize Samaria. Notice:
Jn 4:39 Many of the Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman's testimony NIV
I have read that God uses women in certain capacities when there are no men around to submit to the calling. I guess I don't know about that. It could be that God's work requires both genders. Sometimes, it could be, that man just doesn't have the capacity to complete the work necessary to get the job done. True ordination doesn't come from man but from God. The ordination of women whether formal or informal does take place. On that day, Jesus clearly recognized the office of that woman.
Some will say this was nothing more than a kind act of a loving woman. Maybe so, but I personally believe this was one of those high-callings of God. Sorry guys, it was performed by a woman and not a man. In this world God has distinct purposes for both genders. We all have a job to do. Sometimes, it is necessary for some to work quietly behind the scenes for one reason or the other. God has honor for all that serve Him. In whatever capacity we have the opportunity to serve, it is a blessed calling. We serve not for human recognition but for love just as this woman did on that day.
In addition: I would never want to short change anything in His Word. I do want to recognize and honor those who have served in His Kingdom.
A servant
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One honest question Roy,
Do you think she knew what you have described? Do you think she knew she was filling such a high office?
The lamb that came to die and God knew that no prophet or leader would do it since they were blinded. Should that make a difference?
Do you think it makes a difference whether she knew or not? I am really asking. She was not placed in any of the offices of the church. She did it at of love and because the Lamb was to be annointed?
She had no idea, i think of what she was doing. Obviously she was used by God to do it. Praise God, but does it matter?
I enjoyed your post and I respect your biblical knowledge and you have brought up a good point here.
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I don't know whether she knew or not. I'm not even sure what she was doing. However, when I read this story, I sense that what she was doing was very important. I am so glad she was available to perform this act on our blessed Savior. My point is: sometimes women have to fulfill a role quietly behind the scenes because of our prejudices. Paul said, I do not permit a women to teach a man (paraphrased). Yet, when he described Priscilla and Aquila teaching Apollos, he lists Priscilla first (Acts 26). He does suggest by his order that Priscilla was the lead in teaching Apollos (obviously a man). I would never seek to second guess the Word of God, but I do want to understand it. I know that Jesus came to liberate the women as well as all. In Him there is no difference. My point is, as I mentioned before, is that if God has something for me, I want it regardless of the vessel He uses to bring it to me.
We are living in very crucial times. We are losing multitudes and multitudes of our teens to the world. I have read of it being as high as 90%. Josh McDowell has said this next generation is the last American Christian generation. We are in desperate times. I am praying for revival. I am up early this morning praying. I am desperate. I have grandkids. I want revival and I don't care who God raises up to give it to us. Reading yours and other posts are a real blessing. You give me hope for this next generation. I pray for God's powerful anointing to come over you to fulfill all of God's purpose in your life. As you go out, do not be shocked if you find God using women to fulfill roles that just maybe no one else is available to fill. I don't know who Ginnybee is and I don't know why she asked the question. Is God moving on her to do something for His Kingdom? It would be my suggestion to not seek a position of man but to open my life to fulfill God's purpose for it.
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Roy -
The church I belong to, Praise Chapel has a woman senior pastor for the English congregation Donna Neville, a beautiful woman of God. I belong to the Spanish congregation of the same fellowship; my pastor is male, but I fellowship with the English congregation as well and have helped Donna in what I could in the past. Her husband Michael Neville was the head of the fellowship. He died and God raised Donna to hold things together.
I understand what you are talking about.
Blessings.
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