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purgatory
What's peoples opinions on purgatory? Do you believe it exists? I'm a catholic and have just found out as a catholic I should believe in purgatory but I'm still trying to believe it. I must admit though it would be better to have the option of going to purgatory and then to heaven than to hell and nowhere other than hell. Hell scares me.
God bless,
Christine
God bless,
Christine
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Ron Payne on
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Morning Christine,
Purgatory is a false doctrine and cannot be found in the Bible.
What you say in your post: "I must admit though it would be better to have the option of going to purgatory and then to heaven than to hell and nowhere other than hell. Hell scares me.These words of yours Catherine, have me believing that you are still under Roman Catholic persuasion.
When I gave my life to Christ and was born again, I could not help myself with the joy I felt. I wanted to share it with everyone. I shared it with a Catholic Priest and told him: "I am saved and going to heaven."
What a shock I received when he replied: "Impossible, no one can say that they are saved. It is a sin of assumption. You are assuming your saved and it is a sin."
The more I read the Bible the more I wondered at how a man representing God could not believe the hundreds of promises of salvation to those who are willing to believe and take God at his word. When anyone denies the promises that God has given us, that person is basically saying God does not mean it. BUT Christine, God means every word of the promises He makes to us.
Christine I have this strong feeling that you are under the same delusion and simply do not accept the word of God. Hence your fear of possibly going to hell.
I want you to read one of God's promises. I have placed your name in it and need you to ask yourself the following questions: "Does God really mean this?" "Is this a lie?" "Will I really have everlasting life?"
"For God so loved Christine, that he gave his only begotten Son, that should Christine believe in him Christine should not perish, but have everlasting life." John ch 3 v 16.
God cannot lie Christine and He never goes back on any promise he makes. Therefore if you really believe that Jesus was crucified and thereby took the punishment that was due to you. Then if you have gone to him in prayer acknowledging Him as your Lord and Saviour, asking Him to forgive you for the sins you have committed. Then should you have done this, God has made you another promise: "If Christine confesses her sins, God is faithful and just to forgive her sins, and to cleanse her from all unrighteousness." 1st John Ch1 v 9 Again I have placed your name there, because it is a promise God makes to each one of us and the promise becomes more real when we place our own names there.
Now let me ask you: Do you believe what men say or what God tells us in his Word? Millions upon millions would rather believe God before we believe men.
Here is another promise: "WHOSOEVER believes in me, shall never die" John Ch 11 V 46. There is nothing stopping you Christine from taking away the word "Whosoever" and placing your name in it's place. Should you do this Christine, and at the same time repent of any sins in your life asking the Lord to make you a child of His and to save you from eternal damnation. Then having done this BELIEVE IT WITH ALL YOUR HEART, that God is a God who cannot lie and you have just become a child of God, Born Again into eternal life and need have no fear of Hell, or a non existant Purgatory.
"For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels,
nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be
able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Romans Ch 8 vs 38-39
The Lord Bless you Christine ~ Your Friend in Christ, Ron
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Permalink Reply by ScribeD on
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It is not biblical. If there were a purgatory - Jesus would have mentioned it. From here, there are only two destinies. Jesus went to the cross to save us from one and lead us to the other.
The one Jesus wants to save us from is so horrible, that the Father deemed it necessary that Jesus must suffer to redeem us from that. Jesus willingly took that suffering, so that we would not go there.
That fact alone compels me to follow Jesus. He decided to take such great suffering to save me from eternal suffering.
How could purgatory fit in to that??
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Permalink Reply by Christine_loves_jesus on
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2 machabees 12:46 supports the notion of praying for the dead who are in may or may not be in purgatory.
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It states "it is wholesome to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins"
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Permalink Reply by Carla on
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Hi There Christine,
I found this on www.gotquestions.org
Question: "What does the Bible say about Purgatory?"
Answer: According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, Purgatory is “a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.” To summarize, in Catholic theology, Purgatory is a place that a Christian’s soul goes to after death to be cleansed of the sins that had not been fully satisfied during life.
Is this doctrine of Purgatory in agreement with the Bible? Absolutely not!
Jesus died to pay the penalty for all of our sins (Romans 5:8). Isaiah 53:5 declares, “but He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him, and by His wounds we are healed.” Jesus suffered for our sins so that we could be delivered from suffering. To say that we must also suffer for our sins is to say that Jesus’ suffering was insufficient. To say that we must atone for our sins by cleansing in Purgatory is to deny the sufficiency of the atoning sacrifice of Jesus (1 John 2:2). The idea that we have to suffer for our sins after death is contrary to everything the Bible says about salvation.
The primary Scriptural passage Catholics point to for evidence of Purgatory is 1 Corinthians 3:15, which says, “If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.” The passage (1 Corinthians 3:12-15) is using an illustration of things going through fire as a description of believers’ works being judged. If our works are of good quality “gold, sliver, costly stones,” they will pass through the fire unharmed, and we will be rewarded for them. If our works are of poor quality “wood, hay, and straw,” they will be consumed by the fire, and there will be no reward. The passage does not say that believers pass through the fire, but rather that a believer’s works pass through the fire. 1 Corinthians 3:15 refers to the believer “escaping through the flames,” not “being cleansed by the flames.”
Purgatory, like many other Catholic dogmas, is based on a misunderstanding of the nature of Christ’s sacrifice. Catholics view the Mass / Eucharist as a re-presentation of Christ’s sacrifice because they fail to understand that Jesus’ once for all sacrifice was absolutely and perfectly sufficient (Hebrews 7:27). Catholics view meritorious works as contributing to salvation due to a failure to recognize that Jesus’ sacrificial payment has no need of additional “contribution” (Ephesians 2:8-9). Similarly, Purgatory is understood by Catholics as a place of cleansing in preparation for Heaven because they do not recognize that because of Jesus’ sacrifice, we are already cleansed, declared righteous, forgiven, redeemed, reconciled, and sanctified.
The very idea of Purgatory, and the doctrines that are often attached to it (prayer for the dead, indulgences, meritorious works on behalf of the dead, etc.) all fail to recognize that Jesus’ death was sufficient to pay the penalty for ALL of our sins. Jesus, who was God incarnate (John 1:1,14), paid an infinite price for our sin. Jesus died for our sins (1 Corinthians 15:3). Jesus is the atoning sacrifice for our sins (1 John 2:2). To limit Jesus’ sacrifice to atoning for original sin, or sins committed before salvation, is an attack on the Person and Work of Jesus Christ. If we must in any sense pay for, atone for, or suffer because of our sins – that indicates Jesus’ death was not a perfect, complete, and sufficient sacrifice.
For believers, after death is to be "away from the body and at home with the Lord" (2 Corinthians 5:6-8; Philippians 1:23). Notice that this does not say "away from the body, in Purgatory with the cleansing fire." No, because of the perfection, completion, and sufficiency of Jesus' sacrifice, we are immediately in the Lord's presence after death, fully cleansed, free from sin, glorified, perfected, and ultimately sanctified.
Hope this helps!
gotquestions.org is a great resource. Check it out!
Where is this 2 machabees? I work from the NLT, KJV, NIV and NCV.
Love in Christ, Carla
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Excellent post Carla!
Christine the fact that Purgatory scares you, is because your faith is not in Jesus Christ but in 2nd Maccabees and a false teaching. The 1st and 2nd Books of Maccabees were excluded from the Bible because (as Carla pointed out) they contradict the entire doctrine of Salvation as found in the rest of the Bible.
Christian belief is that the Bible is the very Word of God. Therefore it must be without fault or in contradiction of itself. Think about it! Would God contradict himself? If this was possible then the bible would be nothing more than a worthless document full of false promises and contradictions.
I trust that you will have taken every verse that Carla has given you and looked each one up.
Should you not do this, you will never come to a knowledge of true salvation as found everywhere in the New Testament and you will always be under a yoke of fear and bondage of a false doctrine that clearly contradicts the rest of the Bible.
In my first letter to you, I realised that you were insecure, as to what would happen to you when you die.
It was a simple deduction, to tell, that you had no confidence in the words of the New Testament, because it was blurred by books (like Maccabees) that contradicted the very words of Christ and the rest of Salvation. Similar to the Catholic Priest, I spoke about, in my first post to you. He said it was impossible for me or anyone to say that they are saved and going to heaven. Let me ask you Catherine...... "Are you confident that the moment you die, you will find yourself in Heaven?
Millions have been asked this question and millions at first said: "No" until they were introduced to a God who Cannot Lie and therefore cannot contradict Himself.
May I give you another incident I had with a Roman Catholic. An elderly woman whom I knew, had just returned from a holiday in Italy. She called me to come and look at a certificate she had purchased at the Vatican. It was framed and placed in a prominent position in the house
"Look Ron" she said... "It is a certificate to say that if I should die without the last rights being said over me, the purchase of this certificate, guarantees that I will not go to Purgatory, but to heaven. Ron, it is signed by the Pope himself."
This as you know is known as an "Indulgence". These indulgences are still believed today.
If there was any hope of certificate, a piece of paper being able to save anyone Catherine, we would have pointed you to it right up front. But common sense tells us that it is not worth the paper it is written on. Yet Rome continues to teach false myths and doctrines.
But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Math 15:9
Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, (Touch not; taste not; handle not; Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men? Col 2:20 - 22
"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; 1Ti 4:1-2
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Hi Christine,
I have taken this scripture that Ron has posted in particular and pasted it here .....with a description from my Study Notes in the Life Application Study Bible.
Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, (Touch not; taste not; handle not; Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men? Col 2:20 - 22 I know that Ron reads from the KJV, so I want to post the same verse from the NLT which may help in your understanding of it. Then I will follow with what the study notes say...
Col 2:20 You have died with Christ, and he has set you free from the evil powers of this world. So why do you keep on following rules of the world, such as,
Col 2:21 "Don't handle, don't eat, don't touch."
Col 2:22 Such rules are mere human teaching about things that are gone as soon as we use them. NLT
study notes as follows: (I have not included all of them here, but you can look it up in the NLT life Application Study Bible)
The 'rules of the world' are the beliefs of pagans. See Colossians 2:8. When a person becomes a Christian, he or she is given new life through the power of the Holy Spirit. Change may be slow, but your life will change significantly if you trust God to change you. Man-made religions focus on human effort; Christianity focuses on Christs work. We can guard against man-made religions by asking these questions about ANY religious group
1). Does it stress man-made rules and taboos rather than God's grace?
2). Does it foster a critical spirit towards others, or does it exercise discipline discreetly and lovingly?
3). Does it stress formulas, secret knowledge, or special visions more than the Word of God?
4). Does it elevate self reighteousness, honoring those who keep the rules, rather than elevating Christ?
5). Does it neglect Christs Universal Church, Claiming to be an eilite group?
6). Does it teach humiliation of the body as a means to spriitual growth rather than focus on the growth of the whole person?
7). Does it disregard the family rather than hold it in high regard as the bible does?
Christine it is good that you are asking questions. The bible instructs us to question all things especially when it comes to a false teaching such as this. Do not be discouraged, Jesus is bigger than any problems we may face. False teachings are indeed a big problem...but I said this to someone else yesterday, and now I will say it here.....if we are dealing with small problems, we need a small savior...BUT WHEN WE ARE DEALING WITH BIG PROBLEMS, WE NEED A BIG SAVIOR. This world indeed has big problems!
Praise God! He knows that and has already taken care of it in Jesus' perfect Sacrifice. Now we must walk it out in faith. Even our faith comes from God.
Love in Christ, Carla
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Permalink Reply by Rita Cullimore on
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Christine,
I know that it is difficult to believe one thing, and later find that what you believe might not be truth. However, God has directed our learning through the Holy Spirit one step at a time, so that the things we learn are in our hearts permanently, to allow us to grow stronger and stronger in His Word. I'm not sure why the Catholic Bible contains books not in the Holy Bible, and I have never read the books out of the Catholic Bible that are contained in the Holy Bible for accuracy, so don't know that these verses are in your Bible exactly as they are in mine. If you will read 2 areas in scripture Acts 7:54-60 and 2 Cor 5:6-8. I believe both these areas show that there is no purgatory.
The reason that the apocrophal (SP) books aren't in the Holy Bible as they couldn't be proved to be accurate. The Macabees are a good record of the 400 year history between the end of the old Testament and the Start of the new. But they are not considered inspired by God so were left out of our Holy Bible along with several other books.
I hope that this helps you.
Your friend in Christ,
Rita
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Permalink Reply by Craig on
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One of the sad things about Catholicism is that they have some doctrines not found in Scriptures, or clearly contradict what the Scripture says. Because of this, catholics have to turn to apocryphal books and tradition for "support". The apostle Paul said to be absent in the body is to be present with the Lord. The thief on the cross was promised by Jesus that TODAY he would be with Christ in paradise.
Hebrews 10:17,18 tells us
" And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin."
This shows us very clearly that there are no penance to perform nor any purgatory in which to suffer sin. There is no more offering for sin. Hebrews 9:25-28, and 10:11-18, tells us that Christ is no more offered in sacrifice. His redemptive work was completed when he cried: "It is finished." Heb. 1:3 tells us that Jesus by Himself has effected man's purgation from sin. So there is no purification after death.
The living resurrected Christ no longer dies or offers Himself in sacrifice (Rom. 6:9,10, Heb. 9:25-28). So he is not to be repeatedly sacrificed which is what happens at the catholic Mass.
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To believe in purgatory is to deny the all sufficiency of Christ's work on the Cross. The Bible clearly teaches only 2 destinations after this life: heaven and hell.
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Hi Charles.....you didn't need to be corrected.. you have corrected yourself. It did make my eyes cross when I read it...so thanks for clarifying...
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Permalink Reply by christopher lingk on
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Hey Christine,
I too spent much time in the catholic church. I went to holy family catholic school in Denver, Co when I was younger. I was an alter boy, did my first holy communion and all that jazz, and even lived at Mt. St. Vincents Childrens Home in Denver, Co being run by nuns. So, I'm pretty familiar with the catholic teachings. And I only say this because as I grew older, went to some non-denominational type churches and read the bible.......I found MANY things about the catholic teachings that didn't coincide with the teachings of the bible. Unfortunately, many catholic people who attend the catholic church don't really realize the errors which the church teaches. There are a myriad of books and web-sites which can give you a thorough history of the catholic church and it's teachings and how things came to be the way they are.
But, as for the teachings of purgatory, the bible doesn't endorse the concept. As an earlier posting said, the bible states that it is given ONCE for man to die, then the judgement. This simply states that once your life on this earth ceases, you will be "locked-in" to your fate depending on whether you accepted Jesus Christ as your savior or not. The bible is VERY explicit that it is ONLY by faith that you are saved, and not by works. Meaning......nothing you DO in this life is going to get you saved, other than faith in Christ's death on the cross for your sins. Likewise, there is nothing you can "DO" after you die to warrant your salvation either. Jesus told an interesting story in Luke 16:19-31 :
19There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Setting aside any particular "reason" for the rich man being in Hell, Jesus made it quite clear that it was his place for eternity. The man couldn't "pass-over" to "abrahams bosom" a.k.a. "heaven". And, he couldn't go back to earth to warn his family about hell. Jesus said there was a great gulf between heaven and hell, and those which desired to go to either could NOT. So, once you pass away in the physical body here on earth, you are set for eternity where you will go according to whether you are saved or not.
The good news is of course is that as long as one is alive to read these promises in the bible, they have the opportunity to choose Christ and not have to worry about where they will end up after they die !! Jesus said....."I am the way, the truth, and the life and nobody comes to the Father but by Me". Not by confession to a priest and hail mary's, and not by being "prayed" or "bought" out of a pergatory. I'm sorry if I've offended any catholics, but the truth of God's Word dictates we speak the truth in love. And I don't want anybody to think they can "hedge" their bets on pergatory. Today is the day of salvation, tomorrow is promised to nobody. Don't wait for death to find out that you missed the "bus". God loves you.
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