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Losing Salvation?
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If you could not give up your salvation voluntarily, then once you become saved you could then go ahead and do whatever you wish. You could steal, murder, cheat, lie, never pray, reject the scriptures, lead others astray, blaspheme God from morning to night - do anything that is sinful, rebellious, and against the laws of God. And you could do all this never confessing and never repenting. To believe that "once saved, always saved" is believing that one has a "license to sin" after the person is born again."
LOSING YOUR SALVATION -http://robertwells.tripod.com/losingsalvation.html
YOU CAN'T LOSE YOUR SALVATION OR HAVE IT TAKEN AWAY BUT.......
When you were saved you turned to God. Turning to God means the you have committed your life to trusting and obeying God. In John 1:6-7 it says, "If we claim to have fellowship with Him, yet we walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, then we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son, purifies us from all sin."
According to this text, "If we walk in the darkness, then we do not live by the truth." If our heart is not repentant when we sin, if our attitude is one of disobedience to the Laws and Commandments of God, if we turn away from God, if we live a life of sin, if we decide the effort to lead a Godly life is not worth it, if the actions of our lives indicate that we no longer desire to be one of God's children, then we don't lose our salvation, and salvation isn't taken from us, but we through our own free will, take our salvation and give it back to God. We tell God we don't want it. We give it up!!!
Ezekiel 3:20 "If the righteous turn from their righteousness and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling block before them, they shall die".
If you could not give up your salvation voluntarily, then once you become saved you could then go ahead and do whatever you wish. You could steal, murder, cheat, lie, never pray, reject the scriptures, lead others astray, blaspheme God from morning to night - do anything that is sinful, rebellious, and against the laws of God. To believe that "once saved, always saved" is believing that one has a "license to sin" after the person is born again."
So ask yourself this question. What is the only way to gain eternal salvation? There are a great many verses that tell us the answer. Below are just two of them:
Ephesians 2:8-9 "By this undeserved kindness, indeed, you have been saved through faith, and this not owing to you, it is God's gift."
1Peter 1:5 "Those who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed on the last day.
God makes salvation completely available through Jesus Christ - and not only to specific individuals, but to all who will receive and believe in Jesus Christ as savior. Jesus made this very clear when he said, "Whoever believes in me would not perish but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) The word "whoever" includes everybody. No person is excluded from the opportunity to believe and receive everlasting life.
Your relationship with God, as well as your eternal salvation are based upon faith. Faith that Jesus Christ is who, and what He says he is. And thus if you are committing those sins mentioned in the above paragraph, then you simply don't believe who Jesus is. A person practicing the above sinful actions, certainly indicates that the person no longer has any faith or belief in Jesus Christ.
In other words you can not walk in the darkness unrepentant and still hold onto your salvation. Keep in mind that repentance is much more than stopping the very act of committing those sins that you are asking forgiveness for. Repentance is actually the act of turning away from doing those sins, of not committing them anymore, of changing your life in such a way as you no longer want or desire to commit those sins. You are the one who decides whether to walk in the light or the darkness. God gave you the free will to make your own choices. If you decide to walk in the darkness then your salvation will not be taken away from you, nor will you lose your salvation. No, what you will do is give up your salvation. You will be telling God that your salvation "is not worth the effort it takes to walk in the light". That you do not wish to have his gift of eternal salvation. That you want to make it through this life on your own without any help from God. That you will follow the ways of the world rather than the ways of our Lord. So your own free will determines whether you are going to keep your salvation or give it up. God allows your eternal future to be in your own hands.
Since your own free will is what determines your eternal destiny, then it is very important to note that God will not force anyone to come to him. He is not going to get down on his knees and beg you to believe him, trust him, or accept him. Nor will he force you to love him or demand your obedience. The choice is up to each one of us whether to surrender our lives and our hearts to God or to refuse his love and his blessings. If you don't want any part of Jesus Christ then he is willing to accept that decision since it was made by you through your own free will.
Our Lord did tell us that once we are saved, once we are looking to him for everything, once we have surrendered completely to him, then no one could snatch us away from him.
John 10:28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand."
So you can't be snatched way, but you sure can walk away.
There are a great many examples of this in the Bible but my favorite is in the book of Mark. It has to do with the story about the time Jesus arrived by boat to a town where he met a demon possessed man who was living in a graveyard. (You can read the entire story in Mark 5:1-21, and it is a great example of people exercising their free will and possibly putting their eternal salvation in jeopardy).
The Bible mentions that this demon possessed man was unusually fierce and dangerous, so much so that the townspeople could not even use the roads in fear that they would be harmed or even killed by this demon possessed man. The demons who resided in this man recognized Jesus and even talked with Jesus, and they knew that Jesus had the power to expel them from the man. So the demons seeing a herd of pigs in the distance, told Jesus that if he was going to expel them from this man, then would Jesus allow the demons to enter into the herd of pigs. So Jesus expelled the demons and the demons left the man and entered into the pigs. Suddenly the pigs realized something was terribly wrong and every single pig rushed over the cliff to their death. The pigs evidently realized that they would rather be dead than to have those demons living within them.
Now the pig herders saw all this happening and they went to the town and told everyone all the details. Verse 17 tells of the townspeople response. "Then the people began to beg Jesus to leave their area." So the response of the townspeople was to tell Jesus to get out of there because they were holding Jesus responsible for the destruction of a whole herd of pigs. They were furious at Jesus because of this economic loss. All that these people could do was to scream at him because they no longer had this herd of pigs. So you can see that the people's only concern was the economic loss of the pigs.
What is really interesting is Jesus's response.
Jesus didn't try to explain to the townspeople that they no longer had to worry about this very dangerous demon possessed man. That he was no longer a threat to their safety. Nor did Jesus ask them if they wanted to know why this formerly demon possessed man was now able to sit there quietly, fully dressed, and in his right state of mind. Nor did he try to tell them that if he could expel demons from this man, then just think of the demons that he could expel from the rest of the townspeople. Neither did Jesus ask the people if they wanted to find out more about this man who could expel demons or why he even did what he did, or why he even came there in the first place. And Jesus certainly didn't argue with the people that the price of the pigs was rather small compared to their peace of mind and their eternal future. Jesus didn't even ask these people if they wanted to learn about the one who sent him. Jesus didn't do any of these things because he could see that the only thing any of these people really cared about was the economic loss of the pigs. They had their minds all made up and money was the number one thing in their lives. They exerted their free will and told Jesus to leave town and leave town now. They had exercised their free will.
Using their own free will, those people wanted nothing to do with Jesus. Their only interest was in worldly things and because of that, they told Jesus to hit the road and go some place else and kill pigs. Jesus knew exactly what was in their hearts, and that their minds were closed to anything that Jesus had to say. So what did Jesus do? Jesus simply turned around, boarded the boat and proceeded across the water and went into his own city. Without a word, he simply turned and left, and very possibly took with him their eternal salvation.
John 15:1-2 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He removes every branch in me that bears no fruit. Every branch that bears fruit he prunes to make it bear more fruit".
John 15:6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch, and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned".
1 Corinthians 10:12 "Therefore let him who thinks he is standing, beware, that he does not fall".
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Permalink Reply by RoyW on
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David said,
>>A person committing such sins certainly indicates that the persons no longer have any faith or belief in Jesus.
What? So all the men of God that have committed horrible sins lose and regain and lose and regain their salvation? Or lose it once and for all. That is crazy to believe. God will allow us to play ping pong with our salvation. Erase His name, no wait write it. Oopps he is at it again, erase his name. Ohhh he repented, add it again. Come on.
My brother, this post is priceless.
Roy -
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Permalink Reply by Yael Levi-Bénédict on
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Roy,
"this post is priceless"
I would be if that was how God opperates! Luckly it is not!
When the OT says that God will blot out the name of those who sin against Him, He means in the END of everyone's jorney, those who sinned and died without repantence, those will be blot out. IF you repent, as did David, GOD, who is merciful will forgive!
That like 'joke' of David was not a funny one... -
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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on
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Yael,
It was not meant to be funny friend. It was meant to cause the reaction that it caused in you. It is absurd to think God is in heaven writing and erasing names.
That was my whole point. :)
Blessings to you. -
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Michelle,
From the Article you posted to start this discussion :
>>Our Lord did tell us that once we are saved, once we are looking to him for everything, once we have surrendered completely to him, then no one could snatch us away from him.
John 10:28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand." So you can't be snatched way, but you sure can walk away.
There is nothing in the bible that teaches that a person that has been chosen and bought by God can walk away from God. These are teachings of man and not God. No one can snatch us away from the hand of God and that includes us as well. Are any of us stronger than God?
What is it with us wanting to be God and using free will to do so? God has to respect my free will. Where does it say that in the bible? We see the complete opposite everywhere. Over and over and over again we see God stepping in and doing as He wishes. According to His good pleasure, yet because some preacher said “God has to respect our free will” we ignore the God we see in the bible. God is only obligated to do what He puts himself under commitment. He has never said I will respect the will of man. He doe but he is above it and as the creator He has every right to get envolve when and how he wants.
SALVATION HINGES UPON THE WILL OF GOD AND NOT UPON THE WILL OF MAN. The bible tells us "It is not of him that willeth nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy;" by which is clearly meant that the reason why any man is saved is not because he wills it, but because God willed, accord to that other passage, "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you." The whole scheme of salvation, from the first to the last, hinges and turns, and is dependent upon the absolute will of God, and not upon the will of the creature.
WE HAVE FREE WILL. WE HAVE LIBERTY TO CHOOSE THE QUALITY OF OUR CHRISTIAN LIFE. WHO WE MARRY. HOW OFTEN WE GO TO CHURCH. HOW MANY KIDS WE HAVE ETC… WE CHOOSE GOD FREELY ONCE GOD HAS REGENERATED US AND GIVING US FAITH. WHEN WE SIN IS NOT GO’S FAULT, WE ARE COMPLETELY RESPONSIBLE FOR OUR SHORTCOMMINGS.
THE ABOVE IS TRUE - BUT ALL THOSE THINGS WE DO ONLY BECAUSE GOD ALLOWS ACCORDING TO HIS GOOD PLEASURE.
The key is that God allows what works towards His good pleasure. -
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Permalink Reply by forgiven on
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(There is nothing in the bible that teaches that a person that has been chosen and bought by God can walk away from God. )
David, I really enjoy your posts....but I think this statement is silly. I am not going to quote scripture here.....it could take weeks to post all the references. -
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>> freewill and free choice are the same thing.
Freewill and free choice being the same thing changes nothing. And no one is against that biblical truth. Yes, we have free will, we are able to choose. That changes nothing in this discussion. God's purposes in creation trump men's will and choice according to His good pleasure and perfect will. If God was not involved in our affairs and modifying circumstances etc. the world would be a much different place. Like it will be when the church is removed from the earth. The great tribulation will be upon the earth.
>>That is why Jesus prayed, Not My will, but Thine be done." That is why Jesus taught that we must ask for God's will and not want to live by our own will, we must surrender our will to His will
Exactly. Jesus understood the Father has the last word in all our affairs. God does want our will to align to His, so our lives can be prosperous and blessed. No one denies freewill. We are all conscious that we have it. But we understand that our freewill will not overshadow God's purposes for His creation.
Daniel 4:25 (New International Version)
25 You will be driven away from people and will live with the wild animals; you will eat grass like cattle and be drenched with the dew of heaven. Seven times will pass by for you until you acknowledge that the Most High is sovereign over the kingdoms of men and gives them to anyone he wishes.
Ephesians 2
Made Alive in Christ
1As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, -
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Sis Amanda,
>>For instance, if God pre-ordained people in the sense that is being taught, some chosen for good and some chosen for evil, then does that not mean that God pre-ordained angels as well? For did not sin begin with Lucifer, who was created a beautiful angel and was perfect until the day sin was conceived in his own heart--implying it was Lucifer's freewill that led him in to sin.? Was not Lucifer in heaven at the time he was filled with sinful pride?
No one has taught here that God chose some for evil. The first thing one must do family in order to grow and learn is stop being so defensive about our opinions and truly read what others are saying, so we do not misrepresent them. I have not read anyone state that God created evil or create evil people. So you see family this is what people have done from the time of Adam and Eve, they think they understand what is being said and often miss what is truly being said.
God created Angels and humanity both were created intelligent, able to reason and with liberty to choose. Lucifer used his intelligence, his ability to reason and chose to sin. Men with the influence of Lucifer also chose to sin. We do have liberty to chose, but God allows and interferes as He sees fit according to His good pleasure.
>>did God create evil intentionally by pre-ordaining Lucifer as a vessel of wrath? Does that mean that God is the author of evil?
The origin of evil is an extensive topic as well and we don’t know the answer to that. We do know that God allowed it. He also created beings with the ability to sin.
>>That means that babies and children will be burning in hell....
We do not know what happens to babies. We do know through scripture that God has predestined to save a people. Is He unjust by doing that? Paul dealt with that question in a couple of places and the answer was:
Romans 9
14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."[f] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.
19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[h] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
So there is our answer. If we are not ok with that then we have to take it up with God. -
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Robert - if there are so many references please blessed us with at least one. You see brother anyone can say that statement is silly, but can they prove it with the word?
We are not talking about a falling into sin for a season bro. That is obvious and most of us had been there and done that. We are talking about a permanent departure from the faith once a person has been reborn.
We have too many Christians making statements out of pure opinion and when someone like me says, ok i am not offended or mad my brother, thank you for your opinion, now would you lovingly and kindly blessed me with the verses to back up your opinion? Then I am instigating division hahaha or something like that.
I pray you know better than that. We Christians have the truth, but not 2 or 3, Just one truth. This topic is not beyond comprehension.
So what say you man. If the list is soooooo long, you can give me one or two verses and explain why my statement is silly, not from opinion only, without biblical verses to back up your opinion, but with the word bro.
I have back up ALL i say with scripture not mere opinions. You are making a statement on a public forum and teaching your biblical logic. If I am wrong I want to be corrected and have no problems having that correction among 9000 or a billion. This has nothing to do with pride, arrogance, winning arguments, but everything to do with the truth.
Blessings -
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Here's a thought, If we cannot lose Salvation, then Satan himself is 'redeemed' and Judas as well. I do not know how anyone could believe that 'we' can not turn away from the Lord.....He will let us go if we are determined to do so.
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Robert,
>>If we cannot lose Salvation, then Satan himself is 'redeemed' and Judas as well. I do not know how anyone could believe that 'we' cannot turn away from the Lord.....He will let us go if we are determined to do so.
Why would Satan be redeemed? Satan is outside the human race. He had access to God and God has not provided for them an atoning death. Judas was never a true follower of Christ.
Judas called Jesus teacher, he never called Jesus Lord or master as the other apostles did.
It is assumed he was saved because he traveled with the other disciples
Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God. “Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil? “He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve (John 6:68-71.)
Jn.17:12 tells us no one will be lost, but the son of perdition, who is Judas. He fulfilled the position by the purposes of his own heart.
Acts 1:24-25 states that he fell from the position of Apostleship, not from salvation, for it appears for all intensive purposes he never possessed it.
>>He will let us go if we are determined to do so.
The Father's will is that Jesus doesn't lose even one of the ones the Father has given Him. So can Jesus fail the Father? Has He ever? Jesus will save every man He died for. They have been bought and sealed. -
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There are many people in this world that attend church every Sunday, pay their money, give their time, etc. but no more know the Lord than the man in the moon. Some are attending a church that hasn't spoken the true Gospel in decades while others are attending churches that are still preaching the Gospel. However, if they don't know Jesus as Lord and Savior they will not enter into heaven. The Christian religion cannot save anyone. You can go through every institutional sacrament that any church has and still not find Christ. You can be baptized, receive communion, attend the fund raisers, etc., etc., and still not know Christ. In times of testing each one of these will fall away. The parable of the sower gives us some good insight to those who will be saved. Notice:
Mt 13:18-23
18 "Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20 The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away. 22 The one who received the seed that fell among the thorns is the man who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke it, making it unfruitful. 23 But the one who received the seed that fell on good soil is the man who hears the word and understands it. He produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown." NIV
Notice especially this one: 20 The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away.
There are many who fit this description. To them Christianity is a religion. These do not and never did belong to God. These are the ones who will never completely believe God's Word. They hope that perhaps their good works will get them in but do not know Jesus. They do not know His voice. They are certainly not going to spend their time on a forum like this unless, of course, they are planted their by the enemy.
However, the seed that falls on good soil grows and produces that which God had designed it for. God watches over that seed to assure its success. He gives the rain and all that is necessary to see that seed produce.
It is not sinful to be confused in thinking that one might lost their salvation. However, you must understand that those who really know Him never will. They are the ones who will persevere to the end. They are the ones that will truly produce fruit. They are the ones He will never lose.
All the others will fall away.
In Christ,
Roy -
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Hebrews 10:26-31 (New King James Version)
For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The LORD will judge His people It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
......or how about this?
Mark 3:28-29 (King James Version)
Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.
David, I hope and pray that you are right. But I will not be casual about my Salvation, I will not gamble with it, or treat it as something common. My Salvation in jesus Christ is the most valueable of any thing I have. I will leave it laying underfoot to be trampled. And I will not be convinced that I can not lose it. I will atempt each day to renew my Salvation and to come to the Lord in Holiness, in the Holy Spirit and in truth. Black is not white, light is not dark, good is not evil. I am not following the path of Yin and Yang where good and evil are both necessary for life. I follow the Living God, who says "turn away from doing evil" "Repent and be saved" "Go and sin no more lest a worse thing come unto you"
"As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly."
You can do what you want, 'I' will do what 'I' feel is truth. I pray that I do see you in heaven. -
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