Judging salvation

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Permalink Reply by Seek on January 12, 2015 at 7:47pm

I'm not sure I get what you're saying as there's a lot there. But I'm gathering you're mainly referring to verse 5?

So then what did Paul mean when he later said:

But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty. For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people. 2 Timothy 3:1-17

In order to avoid them wouldn't you have to judge they are what this passage says? And if you "can't" avoid them?

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Permalink Reply by Seek on January 13, 2015 at 6:31am

Curious on this. I've been looking online at scripture and commentary. I found https://www.cai.org/bible-studies/should-christians-love-wicked. Not sure if I agree with all of it but he makes some very valid points.  I question some of what he says based on: 

Matthew 5

⁴³ Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

⁴⁴ But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

⁴⁵ That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

⁴⁶ For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

⁴⁷ And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?

⁴⁸ Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Especially verse 47.  Since this website is speaking of if your "brother" sins or your "brother" asks you to forgive them.  But here it says to love your enemies and further adds that if you salute your brothers only that you're not doing more than they do.

But isn't true that we've become so lax that we've allowed the US to become what it is because we have to love (and tolerate) everyone?  We're called intolerant if we stand up against sin of any kind.  And when we do see a professing Christian sinning, the first thing we think is, don't judge but this isn't what we're told in many places in scripture.  Matthew 18:15 says we're to point out their sin, 2 Timothy 3:5 tells us to have nothing to do with one who only has a form of godliness.  Titus 3:10 says to have nothing to do with divisive people.  All of these are speaking of those in the church and not those outside the church.  So clearly we're to judge in some fashion.  But we run with the judge not lest ye be judged.  But the rest of that says: For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get.  So if you pronounce judgement on someone for something they're doing, you will be judged on that same thing...ergo, don't be a hypocrite and tell them not to do something that you yourself do. 

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on January 13, 2015 at 9:20am

I have limited time today and will be away for a couple of days, but wish to inject a couple of things.

What is the purpose of judging fruit? We do not judge their eternal destination as only God can do that. We can look at their life and examine it according to Scripture, but the best we can do regarding a person who professes faith in Christ is to hold their salvation up as suspect, but again what is the purpose of this? Do we seek to excommunicate or reach the person. It is my conviction that one of the greatest, and hardest, mission fields today is the unsaved churched. These people believe they are saved, the church has proclaimed them saved, but there has been no transformation only an acceptance of religion. Who are these people, of which I believe are many? It would be difficult to be sure, but if you do two things you have a chance to reach them ... 1) Preach truth. 2) Love them. Neither of these two mean that we condone bad behavior.

So, again, what is the purpose of judging fruit? I believe this deals primarily with those who are in or are being considered for leadership roles within the church. The actions and words of those in leadership need to be tested against Scripture. If the teaching is in error you address the errant teaching, while hopefully being teachable in case you are wrong. Yes, there are some gray areas and many clearly taught truths. Some areas of secondary value while others are of primary value. Thus we need to pick our battles (if you will give me the liberty to use that term) carefully. If I believe a person's teaching is in error I will address it, it may include calling them out by name, but who am I to challenge their salvation if they profess faith in Christ. I may believe that their salvation is suspect, but I am sure of this ... there will be people in heaven that we would have never thought would be there and there will be people absent that we believed would be there.

We also make judgments based on how something affects the body as a whole. There are times removing someone is required to protect the body. This is not done with out a great deal od prayer and discernment. It is the last step, not the desired step until all else has been exhausted.

There is another scenario where judging fruit is critical ... marriage. You don't marry someone simply because they say they are a Christian ... one must examine how their life aligns with God's Word.

We also have precedence in Scripture regarding judging the actions of others:

1) The church in Corinth was to expel the immoral person.

2) John tells us to have nothing to do with false teachers.

3) John proclaims that those who went out from them proved they were not of them by their action of leaving.

Thus, judgment will always be a part of our engagement with others. Some questions will always arise. 1) What are we to judge? 2) Why are we judging? 3) What is the extent of our authority to judge?

Hopefully that helps, but will probably add more confusion to the mix.

Lord Bless,

LT

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Permalink Reply by Seek on January 13, 2015 at 9:43am

Well: 2) John tells us to have nothing to do with false teachers. pretty much sums up the question of what to do if you "must" have something to do with them.  Some were already married before accepting Christ and must now live with one claiming to be a Christian then coming home and beating their spouse.  That's just one example.  And this is what I've had trouble finding anywhere is how to treat such a person.  The Bible says treat them as a pagan, but I'm not really sure how you treat a pagan.  LOL  My neighbors are pagans and have their issues but they're not downright evil.  They don't claim religion (and keep saying they'll come to church but don't ::sigh::), but they help out a neighbor and treat people well.  And another neighbor who is a very bitter man and a loner, also not a Christian, that none of the other neighbors like, but I sent him a Christmas card and have spoken with him on occasion.  However, others will claim they are Christian but privately seek to harm their own brethren by committing blatant evil.  I treat my neighbors as I would any neighbor.  But how do you treat the latter if you must have dealings with them.  Since we're supposed to go the extra mile, what if the extra mile is caving to someone bent on doing you harm?

Does any of that make sense?

The other issue is if this person teaches others in the church, which has also been in question, but I know that one is covered easily in scripture without any issues trying to figure it out.

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on January 13, 2015 at 10:26am

Jesus reached out to the lost and at the same time never condoned theirs actions. He demonstrated love and grace in His interaction with them and eventually went to the cross for us all if we will hear His call and come to Him.His love and grace alone did not save them ... He had that for them before going to the cross. Salvation required the shedding of His blood, the atonement for our sin. Jesus as the Shepherd will seek to care for His sheep (the saved) ... will not attempt to go into all that possibly means.

Yet, we see Jesus interact with the religious leaders and He is very direct, even to the point of being harsh by many people's standard. God tells us that He wishes none to perish, but that they would come to repentance ... yet we know many will indeed perish (be separated from Him forever). Thus, whenever it is possible our desire is to reach out to people in hope that they will repent (we want the church to have a large number of unsaved people attending every week hearing the gospel message). There are times when we must walk away and shake the dust off. Again, this is a last step, not the first or early step. I do not have the right to walkaway and brush off the dust ... it is only after we have exhausted all avenues that we are commanded to do so. Therefore, it is not an option to be selected, but a command to be followed ... followed once all other avenues have closed.

Lord Bless,

LT

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Permalink Reply by Seek on January 13, 2015 at 3:10pm

Not a part of this particular question, but you brought up something I've wondered about. 

(we want the church to have a large number of unsaved people attending every week hearing the gospel message)

I've seen varying ideas on this and have been through the scriptures and it doesn't appear from what is said that they allowed the unsaved in the churches of the New Testament.  Though I know if you're going to preach to them, you want them there.  But wondering on this issue.

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Permalink Reply by Tammy on January 13, 2015 at 10:33am

Thus we need to pick our battles - Permission granted

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Permalink Reply by Seek on January 13, 2015 at 3:14pm

Better than picking noses I always say.

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Permalink Reply by Seek on January 14, 2015 at 3:27am

To further touch on this about making judgements...

What about TV evangelists who teach a false gospel or don't live the Christian life. If we can't know their heart how can we call them hypocrites since hypocrites were what the Pharisees were considered to be. If we never question the heart of another how could we be discerning? I don't believe telling us to remove the speck from our own eye is telling us not to judge, but is exactly what it says: with the same measure we judge we will be judged. If I judge a person who is angered I will be judged on the times I was angered. If I judge them on their driving, spending, child rearing, etc. and I'm not the best in such areas, then I'm a hypocrite and will be judged on this. If I judge someone who dabbles in witchcraft, frequents adult book stores and strip joints, who consistently does evil hurtful things to others and never shows remorse, who teaches things to others that are blatantly against scripture and aren't "gray areas"...if I judge these things I do not partake in, I will be judged on those. And my judgment would be favorable being that I didn't have this in my life. That is how I see this verse considering all the other verses of being discerning of false prophets, of having nothing to do with pagans (since we judge that they are pagans), we would never rebuke another for sin because we have sin in our own lives...we all do. We must judge or we give satan a foothold into our lives, our churches.

None of it means we treat them with contempt, but we don't treat them as a brother. We don't share our thoughts with them, spend time in their presence, or have them over for dinner unless preaching the Gospel. And yet if they know the Gospel and blatantly disregard it, praying, not preaching, may be the only way to soften their heart. But we do all we can to avoid such people. These aren't just unsaved but those who have a pretense of Godliness but their actions show what is in their heart. We don't want them in our lives, our children's lives or our churches. Such people are up to no good and associating with them could be our downfall.

So what I was looking for is how to deal with them, without being nasty toward them, when the situation warrants that you must be in their presence and I think Tammy gave the best strategy is to say as little as possible. Kinda goes with the old saying: if you can't say something nice, say nothing.

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Permalink Reply by Tammy on January 26, 2015 at 5:46pm

:)

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Permalink Reply by Seek on January 26, 2015 at 5:56pm

Glad your smile weighed In. Made it easier to find this discussion. Lol

Funny how after I stopped asking a piece of it was revealed in my current readings in Proverbs lately. Read this last week:

Proverbs 9:8-9 NIV

Do not rebuke mockers or they will hate you; rebuke the wise and they will love you. Instruct the wise and they will be wiser still; teach the righteous and they will add to their learning.

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Permalink Reply by Tammy on January 26, 2015 at 8:40pm

:)

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