All About GOD - Growing Relationships with Jesus and Others
Is there really a God?
If one asks, how do you know there is a God what would be your reply?
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Amanda on
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At the time it was written, a good many mentioned in it were still in the future :)
Foreknowledge, or the fact that God sees and knows things that are "ahead of time" doesn't necessarily mean that those things will happen or have happened as God pre-determined, but it does mean they are going to happen or did happen as God sees/saw them, but ... they also happen or will happen because of the free choices of those involved. However, God at times sends a big fish (over rules) mankind's liberty. I could never possibly know how often God does intervene, and that's why I said the question remains of how much God affects events.
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Permalink Reply by RoyW on
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So, when He says they will all know Me from the least to the greatest He is talking about those who will choose to know Him. In my simple mind, that doesn't quite fit. To me He seems to be speaking to the whole house of Israel. My thinking about the "whole" house refers to "They will ALL know." The Bible speaks of a day when He will bring all His people back to Israel and they will have David as their king. They will have one shepherd and the Temple or Sanctuary of God would be in their midst. It will be a day when He will cure them of all their backsliding and they would be cleansed of all their sins. It is a day when they will return to Israel and live with their God.
Some of that sounds very familiar.
Some are looking for God to restore the physical Temple. It appears to me that He will not be doing that. It appears to me that He has found fault with the first covenant and established a second or New Covenant. Is this is effect today or are we still looking for another day? Are we that people or will there be another people? Are we part of that house or is that a separate group? Is there another covenant coming?
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We've strayed off topic, Roy, As you know, I believe Israel and the Church are separate, although those Jews who are born again have become part of the Church, and are new creations that are neither Jew, nor Gentile, but Christians. Yes, we are under a New Covenant, indeed. Perhaps you will want to post a new discussion asking your questions.
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Permalink Reply by Tammy on
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My question Roy would be if He has already predestined us to receive salvation, why does he use someone as a tool to accomplish it? I mean, it's going to happen regardless, right?
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Yes, if a person belongs to God He will come to God. He does use people to accomplish that. I don't want to take your discussion off topic. I feel these things are relative. Who are these people that all would know Him? Is the New Covenant speaking to these people or another? Are we that people? Amanda says, "no." I tend to believe that we are.
If true, it is very important to the discussion at hand.
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Roy, my understanding is that the topic of this discussion is how to answer someone who asks if God exists, is God really there. But carry on as you wish. It is a familiar debate and one that will not go away until Christ returns, I'm sure, regarding the Church and Israel and whether or not the Church has replaced Israel. I don't see the connection between that topic and how to answer someone who is wondering if there is a God. It's a topic worth further discussion, and that's why I suggested you post a new discussion asking your questions. But if you can tie it all together somehow, then do so and with my blessings.
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That question was relating to the predestination issue you guys were speaking of earlier.
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Yes, and I had commented earlier to Roy that he and I have strayed off topic. All good questions. I didn't mean to offend him by saying we had strayed off topic.
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Tammy,
The issue at hand is about these that do not know God. How would I respond to those who say "how do you know there is a God." I was talking about a people who come under a New Covenant who all would know Him. I suggested that it would be impossible to convince someone to believe in God through logic. That is my answer to the question. One thing led to another and before you know it, there I am again warning to quit boasting about our salvation as if we did something (anything) to actually cause God to save us. I believe we did nothing. However, I have found that belief not to be too acceptable among many believers. Sometimes I think it best to refrain from giving God all the glory. However, I cannot do that. I was nothing more than a poor wretched dead sinner with absolutely nothing good in me. He pulled me out of the wretched clay and set my feet on the Rock to stay. There is nothing I have to boast about. I believe I am one of those people of the house of Israel spoken of by Jeremiah the prophet in Jeremiah 35 that He would place under a New and different Covenant. This is not like the Old which has now been done away with. We who know Him should be humbled and reverent. We are not natural born citizens but we have been grafted in. Yet, we should not and cannot boast as if we had anything to do with that.
Amanda is saying that God knows who will choose Him and those who will not and bases His decision on that foreknowledge. To me that is taking some of the credit. I consider that dangerously close to boasting.
We know God because we believe in God. It is a gift and I really don't know how to answer your question. It bothers me that so many do not know Him. We cannot know the mind of God. It is beyond our finding out at least in this world and probably even in the next but there will be many things that we will know.
There is a people that ALL will know Him. Who are these people? I have installed my King on Zion, my holy hill. See, I lay in Zion a stone, a tested stone a precious cornerstone for a sure foundation. The one who trusts will never be dismayed. No one who lives in Zion will say, "I am ill," and the sins of those who dwell there will be forgiven.
Isa 37:32
For out of Jerusalem will come a remnant,
and out of Mount Zion a band of survivors.
The zeal of the Lord Almighty
will accomplish this.Isa 62:11-12
11 The Lord has made proclamation
to the ends of the earth:
"Say to the Daughter of Zion,
'See, your Savior comes!
See, his reward is with him,
and his recompense accompanies him.'"
12 They will be called the Holy People,
the Redeemed of the Lord;
and you will be called Sought After,
the City No Longer Deserted.Heb 12:22-24
22 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel. NIV84
Rejoice, rejoice, rejoice All ye saints of Zion. You are the redeemed of the Lord.
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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on
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Roy,
You said:
Amanda is saying that God knows who will choose Him and those who will not and bases His decision on that foreknowledge. To me that is taking some of the credit. I consider that dangerously close to boasting.
To say that one has been given the liberty to receive Christ once the Holy Spirit has done all the work leading up to the decision is dangerously nearing being boastful is so far from the truth. There is no taking of credit in acknowledging that one received Christ, chose light over darkness when offered new life.In the revelation from God that leads us through repentance to salvation we know how worthless we are, that we bring nothing to the table, that we deserve judgment and damnation, but by the grace of God we are offered new life. The liberty to bestow or reject is what God gives to mankind and is able to give us that liberty because He is the Almighty Sovereign God.. You don't see it that way ... OK, but please do not say that those of us who do believe we have been given that liberty by God appear boastful ... I boast not in my opportunity to receive Him, but in the cross ... in my Savior who died for me. I am thankful for all He has done for me and stand on His work and His work alone.
Lord Bless,
LT
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Well, we would really be getting off track to get onto the differences between those who believe we participate as opposed to those who believe He does it all. As I did mention to Amanda, she may be correct. I don't think we will solve that here. If God chooses based on His foreknowledge of those who will choose Him, there is a participation of man and something for which he could take some credit. If I am understanding correctly, it appears that what is being said is that God chose me because He knew I would choose Him. I personally do not think that is the case but it could be. I think there is some doubt still today among some as to whether it is all of God or mostly of God. If it is up to us to choose then I would have to say that it is mostly of God. Man must still do his part.
I have come to the understanding that it was all of God and that there is nothing for which we can take any credit. I am in understanding that you don't believe that you did anything to earn this forgiveness but freely accepted that which was offered you. I do believe that to say that God chose me based on His foreknowledge of my future choices is close to taking some of the credit and somewhat of a boast. If that is offensive, please accept my apologies. I guess saying somewhat of a boast is going a little further than saying close to a boast. I understand that you do not see it this way. Again, I apologize for this offensive kind of language.
The topic of discussion is what I would say if someone asked why I believed in God. That is exactly what I am attempting to answer. In the past, God made a covenant with the house of Israel where they would all know Him. Is that covenant right now in effect? Has it already taken place? If so, it appears to me that all those who fall under this covenant know Him or will come to know Him. I think there is room for those who see this as a complete act of God.
If you were to say to me, "Roy, there was nothing good in you whatsoever and nothing for which you can take any credit for whatsoever," I would not be at all offended. If you were to say, "Roy, there is still nothing good in you and that your only hope is Jesus," I would readily agree. I can do nothing to be saved or to stay saved. I must trust in this One that has awakened me from my sin. Perhaps you did choose light over darkness but then again, maybe you didn't do as much as you think you did or are doing. Again, if there is no room for this kind of thinking, that is okay. I certainly do not have any say in that matter.
We are not to take any credit for our position in Christ:
Rom 11:17-24
17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. NIV84
Am I taking any of the credit if I say, "I chose?" Perhaps not but it appears to me that maybe we would be. If that is offensive, again my apologies. You are very comfortable in saying, "I chose." I am not as comfortable. However, I am the first to admit that the Arminian view might be closer to the truth than the Calvinistic view. I don't think any of us can say we absolutely know. At this point I don't think grace is resistible. The natural conclusion to this thinking would be that there is no room for my taking any credit.
However, as per your request, I will no longer post that saying, "I, of my own free will chose," as being close to or somewhat boastful (I think close to is better), I will refrain. I should have known better. You are all wonderful people and graciously saved by God's grace. I am so sorry that my understanding is so offensive. Take hope, though, I might change. I must be true to what I read. I do see both sides.
Blessings.
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