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Is Obedience to God necessary for salvation?
I like to read all the replies here, they are very insightful and thoughtful.
The reason for this question, is that I've read more than one reply that states that there is nothing left for us to do regarding salvation. Is this biblical?
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by JB on
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I know I am not the brightest light on the tree, but what am I missing here? Does it not say that faith is the substance of the things hoped for? Now if faith is the substance, then why are we still looking for it?
In light of the following scriptures,
1Jo.5:14, this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us, and if we know He hears us, we know we have the petition we desired of Him. Doesn’t say you can expect to receive it later, like in 2Pet.1:3, according as His divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, [pass tense] through the knowledge of Him… He has already given it, but we must receive it by faith. Grace gives it, faith receives it, not when you see it. That would be sense-knowledge faith.
And Mark 11:24
Therefore I say unto you, what things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.So in your opinion, what comes first; believing you received them when you prayed, or do you have to see it before you can believe it?
Qt! "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Faith is something we can see. It has solidity. It is not something we do in our heart. This I totally disagree with.
I believe faith is one of the hardest things for people to grasp, they all believe God can do any and all things, but it says in Eph.3:20, He is able to do exceeding abundantly, above all we can ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us.
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Permalink Reply by Jon Houser on
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Who is John talking to in 1 John 5? People who are already saved Christians (redundant, I know), because they were "in Him". We are able to pray believing that we will receive what we ask. Unbelievers, and disbelievers, should not believe it, because they won't receive what they ask. And in Mark, who is he talking to? The Twelve. So the same applies. It is we , the justified, who can believe we will receive what we pray for.
You said exactly what I have been trying to get at. Faith is something we can see and feel, and others can see and feel it. And Scripture says that faith leads us to salvation. It does not come after. And it is not something that God does in us. It is something we are commanded to do.
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Where Did I say we can see, feel or sense faith? I am saying just the opposite, I was just quoting what you said, and said I do not agree with what you said, that faith can be seen. The results of your faith may be seen, but what you can see, feel, taste, smell or hear, is not faith, but only sensual perception.
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I must have been tired when I read that. I apologize for that.
How do you not see that faith is something we can see and feel? Faith is substance and evidence (Heb 11:1). How is that not something you can see, and feel, and experience?
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Permalink Reply by Seek on
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Did your father ever study why the Greek word was used to describe both water baptism and baptism of the Holy Spirit?
Acts 1:5 hoti Iōannēs baptizō hydōr de hymeis baptizō en hagios pneuma ou polys hēmera meta houtos.
For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
How can it mean only water when it's clearly stated as at least one other meaning by the Greek?
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Yes, it means to immerse, in either water or the Spirit, but the baptism of the Spirit only happened twice, and will not happen again. The baptism of the Apostles was the unique beginning of the Kingdom of God. The Holy Spirit baptism of Cornelius was unique to show the Apostles that God had accepted the Gentiles into the Kingdom. There had not been, and never will be, another experience like that.
Today we do have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, but He enters us when our sins are washed away in baptism, not in tongues of fire as in these two unique instances.
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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on
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Act 8:16-17 NIV84 because the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them; they had simply been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. (17) Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
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These people had been baptized, but had not received the Holy Spirit. That does not necessarily mean they were not saved at baptism, just that the Holy Spirit didn't come upon them at baptism.
Why? I have no idea. I have read that it may be because the Gospel was preached to them by Philip, and he didn't have the authority to preach to the Samarians at that time (either from the Apostles or from God). I have also read that maybe it was because God wanted Peter to be present at the coming of the Spirit on the Jews (Pentecost), the Samarian (this event), and the Gentile (Cornelius). I can't tell you.
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Either they were saved and not yet baptized in the Holy Spirit, because if they are saved they already are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, thus, two separate events ... or they were not saved at all because water baptism has no power to save.
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This verse does not mention salvation, or the redemption of sins, in any way. It is talking about the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Now I will ask you; were these people saved? Obviously they had believed. They had been baptized into Jesus. They, presumably, had confessed that Jesus was Lord, and repented. So I ask, were they saved? Based on what I have heard you say (and correct me if I am wrong), once they believed, they were saved. I think it was not until they were baptized. But either way, they have done both. The only thing that didn't happen yet was the indwelling of the Spirit. He is a gift we don't receive until after we are saved anyway, so the fact that they didn't receive Him until weeks or months later, rather than the instant they were saved, is not a significant issue to us today.
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Absolutely the point of salvation here is critical to your point of view as well as the fact that one receives the indwelling Holy Spirit at salvation and not days or weeks later. So they are either saved, which includes being indwelt by the Holy Spirit and were baptized with the Holy Spirit later or they were not saved until receiving the Holy Spirit and if this is the case then your argument regarding water baptism is blown out of the water.
Thus which is it here? Are they saved and then later baptized/filled with the Holy Spirit or were they not saved at baptism, but later at the time spoken of in the verse? This leaves you having to question what you believe. One requires belief in baptism of the Holy Spirit or to deny water baptism for salvation.
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Reading back to verse 8 and following, Simon the sorcerer was among the believers in Samaria. Now, it is shown in verse 19-21 that Simon's heart was not in Christ, and He wanted the power of the Spirit to continue, and strengthen, his evil sorcery. Peter rebuked him for this, but I am not sure that Philip would have been strong enough to withstand Simon. I cannot be sure, but it makes sense to me that the Spirit would not come on the young Church in Samaria until there was someone there strong enough to withstand Simon. Today we do not have this problem, because we have God's Word to give us example and strengthen us. Also, we do not have the "miraculous" power of the Holy Spirit today. The need for that (and the ability) expired with the death of the last Apostle (John).
This event does not destroy my contention, because I have said many times that getting wet does not save us. It is the power of God through the Blood of Christ in baptism that saves us. If you are baptized for the wrong reasons, or don't believe, or have not confessed the Name of Christ, then you just got wet.
I believe that most of the people in Samaria believed, and were saved when they were baptized, but I don't believe Simon was, because I think the Scripture is clear that his only interest in Christianity was to receive the power of the Holy Spirit to continue his sorcery.
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