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Infant baptism
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Permalink Reply by Rita Cullimore on
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Amanda,
Perhaps I should have said sin was not taken into account before the law.
Eve, by eating of the fruit that God warned ADAM against, and then Adam followed her example, gave control of the earth over to Satan. They sided with Satan over God and thus sin began. The Bible doesn't tell us exactly at what point that Lucifer *sinned* by wanting to place himself above God. Adam and Eve used their choice against God. They made a decision that caused sin to be opened up.
Now ...there is no condemnation against those who are in Christ Jesus.
Blessings to you as you continue to study God's Word...
Rita
Sin causes all deaths, not necessarily by a person sinning, but because of the transference of ruler-ship of the earth from Adam and Eve to Satan. The Bible also says that sin is on us to the 3-4th generation. I would suggest that is the original sin of Adam and Eve. Therefore, babies couldn't escape this physical death, even though they die before they know about sin.
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Amanda-
I think that it is in Genesis 6 when the Bible tells us that angels had co-habitated with humans, therefore corrupting the race. Had the people continued on the path that they were on, the entire world would have been corrupted.
When God saved Noah, his wife 2 sons and their wives, there still had to be some corruption in the blood of the daughters in laws (I think) for giants to still populate parts of the earth in later years.
An easier way to understand is to study the 7 dispensations of the Bible. There is a course on BBNBI.org where one can go through the study. I believe the instructor is Reginald Showers, who is very good at the subject. This study will give you a deeper understanding in what God did during the first 4000 yrs of creation. Reginald Showers also wrote a book on the subject but I personally got more out of his lectures.
I just looked in my library but can't locate the book that he wrote on Dispensational Theology but I will continue to search for it.
When I find more info I will send a message.
Blessings,
Rita
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Amanda,
I wrote the name wrong.
The instructor/writer is Renald E. Showers. His book on dispensational theology is entitled
*there Really Is A Difference*.
The study at http://www.bbnradio.org/wcm4/bbnbienglish/BiblebrInstitute/tabid/25...
One needs to sign up but there is no charge.
Hope this gives you more insight to God's Plan. It sure gave me a better understanding.
Blessings,
Rita
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Permalink Reply by ScribeD on
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Yes, sin is still sin and sin separates us from God, regardless of what age we live in. God has clearly demonstrated that sin must be atoned for.
Atonement seems to have been embedded in the narrative of the Bible from the very beginning, in the story of Cain and Abel and even in the animal skins that God prepared for Adam and Eve. -
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Amanda, I think you're misunderstanding that theological position. There is still all manner of sin, what has changed is that the sin that God holds us to account for is the sin of unbelief of the Gospel. In other words, in Christ ALL sin is forgiven -from a standpoint of judgment to eternal damnation.
Yet for the person who is not in Christ, they remain under the condemnation of all their sins. Apart from Christ there is no forgiveness of sin. Apart from Christ, all sin is held against us. It is whether we are in Christ, or not in Christ that is the matter of how we are judged.
Now, discipline is another matter entirely. God promises to discipline his children. I can attest, He will do this. In fact, he says that anyone who is not disciplined is no son of his. Church discipline is for the purpose of healing and restoration of the true believer and for the conviction of the lost sinner. The heart of the person gets sorted out, when discipline is effectively administered.
I think that it is arguable that a person who lives in unrepentant rebellion after a salvation experience may not have had a true salvation experience. My reasoning is this: Scripture and experience both tell me that true believers (truly born again Christians) will have a difficult time enjoying a life of rebellion - it just leaves you miserable. 1 John tells us the same thing. "He that is born of God will not continue in sin" (emphasis on continue).
As for being under law (or not), I highly suggest reading Paul's quatrain on the matter of law, grace and the new birth: Romans, Galatians, Ephesians and Colosians. But, to fully grasp it, you must read all four of them in order. There is a natural order there, as I see it, that the Holy Spirit wants us to understand.
The key verse is Romans 8:2: The Law of the Spirit, of life in Christ Jesus, has set me free from the Law of sin and death.
The matter of legalism is adhering to man-made traditions and ordinances, in rebellion against God's revelation. Obedience is to hold to the truth, and live it out. There is a great difference.
Now, you are right - in the flesh we are incapable of keeping the law. But, if we are born of the Spirit then the Spirit is keeping the Law within, because the Spirit is Holy and his nature binds with our nature to convict us and lead us into truth and righteousness. The trouble we have is that we have a Holy nature and a sinful nature alive within us (see Romans 6&7). That causes conflict. Galatians reveals that we are to deny the sinful nature, not by restraining it but rather by living and breathing in the Holy nature, thereby not gratifying the sinful one.
So, the mind of Christ in us is an obedient and faithful mind. We are to embrace it and reject that of our lost sinful flesh. This is the process of sanctification. Walk in the Spirit and you will not yield to the works of the fleshly nature. So, walking in the Spirit is the goal.
So it goes like this: what's the first commandment? "You shall have no other gods before me" says the Lord, right? Well, in the flesh, we can't imagine following God at all. And if we believe in any god, we might as well look into all the god stuff we can; thereby disobeying the Law both ways.
But, the mind of the Spirit is such that I want the real God and no other god. I want the true and living God to be my Guide, Counselor, Savior, my King and all my strength. You see, it's all in your perspective, because in the Spirit I SHALL have no other god, than the real God! Like a deer panting for water, my soul pants for Him and Him alone.
In the flesh we cannot keep the law, but in the Spirit we do keep the law because the Spirit is obedient within us. So, we desire to walk in the Spirit.
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Hmmm. Almost. Here is how I understand scripture on the subject, in it's simplest form:
People are destined to go to Hell because of sin.
People are saved from that destiny by faith (apart from works).
Saving faith leads people to do go works, demonstrating they are saved.
So, while it may seem that a lack of faith is what leads people to Hell, it is really a lack of repentance that keeps them doomed. (repentance is the method of accepting Christ by saving faith, because God has granted a reprieve to life by the method of repentance in faith). [Ephesians 2:8-9]
The main reason (I can see many secondary) that God grants salvation by faith is that is prevents us from boasting.
On the really good side, during our conversations on this, a friend of mine has become saved and is coming to grips, at 39 years old, what it means to be a Christian. She was a committed atheist until about 10 days ago. Praise the Lord.
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Amanda, just because the Bible does not specify it, does not mean that the people before the flood did not have substantial revelation from God. The Bible makes statements that hint that there was much more understanding than existed after the Flood (cataclysm).
It makes sense, if you consider that all that was left of the former world was what Noah took on that Ark and what he and the family passed down by oral traditions. After a lot of research, prayer and consideration of the scriptures, I am convinced that the people before the flood had very advanced technology and culture. It is reasonable to assume that God had given them revelation. In fact, it seems that the Flood is a judgment for having rejected God's revelation.
Think about Rome: when it fell as a civilization, the entire empire was torn apart to the foundations within 100 years. We have just small pieces left of what was once a very advanced empire. Many amazing sites and artifacts were left buried for 1500 years.
How much less do we know of the pre-Flood world? Literally everything was destroyed.
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Scrib,
Sorry to jump in, but your statement caught my eyes: just because the Bible does not specify it, does not mean that the people before the flood did not have substantial revelation from God.
The part underlined: just because the Bible does not specify it, is highly conflicting with your arguments during our entire discussion on infant baptism, as you never accepted the passages I provided as evidence for it ( for instance, in Acts where it says that entire households where baptized) on the grounds that it DID NOT specifically mention any infants!
It seems like you have conflicting views when it comes to what you accept or reject re. Scriptural truths....
Yael
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Yael, There is no conflict at all. Scripture (the Word of God) is the Divine Ruler (or "measuring rod", if you want to use archaic language) of all matters of our relationship to God. As it says, it is able to judge the thoughts and intents of the heart; and it is our light, it gives understanding and it is the radiant glory to show us the face of God.
Scripture does not tell us exactly what light or revelation was given to the Pre-Flood age. We know that Noah preached to them and that they were completely condemned. We also know that some were able to have a very dynamic relationship with God in the generation before Noah. Apparently that is enough for us. Because God does not give us much more info. You see, we are not going to be judged by what light they did or didn't have. We are going to be judged by what light we have and how we trust and obey revelation we have been given in the Bible.
In the case of what scripture says about the ordinance (or Sacrament) of Baptism and what it does NOT say about the practice of infant baptisms, we are also going to be judged by what we have been given.
So, it has been proven abundantly, by many witnesses here, that scripture is very clear that new believers and disciples of Christ are supposed to be Baptized. It has also been abundantly proven that there is nothing in scripture clearly stating that infants are in that category.
So, there is no conflict in my statements. We are called to obey what has been commanded to us and ignore endless speculation about what is not commanded which is fruitless. We ought to do what is commanded, believe what is revealed and leave the speculation behind.
Personally, as I have said before, I think there is precedent in Scripture for Christians to dedicate their babies to the LORD, not as a magic cure for their sin condition but as a statement that we as parents are consecrating ourselves to the holy responsibility to raise Christian children in the fear and admonition of the LORD. So, I don't care if you want to sprinkle your kiddo, pray over them with the whole church, lay hands on them, have a pastor or priest pray over them, or if you want to have a parade. Christians should do dedications.
But this is not a magic cure for Original Sin and it does not negate the need for mature believers to make their own decision to be Baptized as a statement of their own obedience to The Faith. Some people do it when they are 7 and some when they are 37. But that is the first act of obedience of a person who has made the personal decision to follow Christ. It does not apply to babies, however. And i think that has been shown thoroughly and exhaustively in this discussion.
And by the way, i'm kind of amazed that you were watching my statements trying to trip me up in my words. It kind of reminds me of what the Pharisees did with Jesus.
So, blessings in your faith journey and i pray that you will come to a place where you are able to accept that Sola Scriptura is the means of revelation that God works through. He has completed his revelation to Mankind in the Gospel. The rest of us, including your priests, are mere mortal instruments - completely fallible. Scripture is God's perfect instrument of revelation for this age. Trust in Him and His word above all else.
~Scribe
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Rita, this is a profound way to look at this and I like part of your statement, but I think you should reconsider another part:
you said:
Sin causes all deaths, not necessarily by a person sinning, but because of the transference of ruler-ship of the earth from Adam and Eve to Satan.
In defining the root cause of death to be sin, you are right. In clarifying that it's due to the transference of ruler-ship, you are doubly right (great way to say that).
But, in truth it was not in transference of the Earth from Adam to Satan, but rather in the transference of Adam from God to Satan. Until the Fall, Adam, Eve and all mankind were under submission to God. At the Fall, Adam became submitted to Satan and all of our nature was transformed by corruption. By obeying satan and rebelling against God, Adam was transferring his submission from The Great King, to an imposter king.
Incidentally, it is a false theology that claims Adam was a king of earth, he was merely the father-progenetor of our race, not a king. Essentially, this theology is the same mistake Israel made when they rejected the Theocracy under the Judges, where God was their King and they chose Saul, a mere mortal man to be King. Exalting men into the place of Kingship is what mankind has been doing for all ages. It is the tendency of every group, in every generation and it is what will lead men in the last days to worship and adore the anti-christ. I advise against being so led. Christ is our King, we need no other.
You also said “The Bible also says that sin is on us to the 3-4th generation.”
While it is true that a curse to the 3rd and 4th generations is pronounced in Deuteronomy, this curse was later repealed; God says so in Ezekiel 18. In fact, this repeal of the curse of generations, in Deuteronomy, is the basis for and a foreshadowing of the New Covenant, ending that chapter with “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his [own] conduct,” declares the Lord GOD. “Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you. Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord GOD. “Therefore, repent and live.” The entire chapter is basically a repeal of that earlier curse and sets the basis for the coming of the New Covenant, which the nation of Israel rejected.
And of course, the greatest truth that you have stated is:
"there is no condemnation against those who are in Christ Jesus." which is, of course, stated clearly in Romans 8:1-2.
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Scrib,
Thanks for your correction. The reason I stated the ruler-ship of Adam and Eve to Satan was because they were the only people on earth that time and God had given Adam power and dominion over the earth and all it contained.
Regarding *You also said “The Bible also says that sin is on us to the 3-4th generation.”*
I was actually referring to the fact that death is passed down through the ages and there is nothing that we can do to side step that except for the Lord to return for His Church. However, you are correct in pointing out my error to me.
It is also clear to me that during Old Testament times that Israel sinned,repented, sinned, repented... down through the ages til this very time (along with everyone else on earth.)
What I didn't go deep enough in explaining that through Adam and Eve's fall, we are all under the sentence of the first death. For every generation that didn't obey God, the penalty is passed on. And after 6000 years, we still don't have it right because we don't have 100 percent of humanity obeying God and being righteous.
Sooo, I guess i should have taken a little more time and explain it better.
Blessings to you, Scribe, for pointing out my error to me...
Rita
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To all posters:
Can a soul that has been condemned to hell still be saved? Why?Thanks!
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