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"I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy"
In the 9th chapter of Romans verses 9-19 there is a topic that I've heard discussed and am unsure of how to answer and would appreciate some input concerning this.
In this section it speaks of God choosing certain people from the womb to fulfill His purposes whether for good or bad (from a human standpoint that is) . Paul seems to be answering an accusation from someone that God was unjust because He was not even giving the people a chance for salvation before they were ever born (ie -Pharoh and Esau).
To answer this Paul quotes (in verse 15) that God told Moses "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy". Then in verse 19 Paul states the retorical question "Why does He (God) yet find fault? For who can resist His (God's) will ?
This 'seems' to imply that God arbitrarily dispenses mercy and therefore salvation is 'not' available for everyone. I hasten to add that there is no one who believes more in the absolute sovereignty of God so please do not think that I am accusing God of being'unjust'.
It's just that this is a difficult concept to explain in light of the scriptures that speak of salvation being available to everyone.
Again, I would greatly appreciate some input on this subject.
God bless
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Amanda on
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I believe both things are true with God initiating and enabling our choice. God has given a massive amount of light to humanity, and even those who are born again become lights to the world themselves. Why would Paul say in Acts 17:27 that God did certain things to get men to seek Him and perhaps reach out for Him and find Him, if men were still not able to seek Him in spite of having those things. The people in Acts 17 had responded to what light they had received already -- they had erected an altar to an unknown God but they were not aware of God in any other way, until they heard Paul preach. In verse 34 we see that a few who heard Paul believed. Why did only a few believe? Did they all not receive the same light and the same word? God sent Paul to them. Was God not calling them? Is this what it means that many are called, but few are chosen? So was God not choosing all of them, or were they not choosing God and answering that call? I believe I made a choice. I still make choices when it comes to walking in the light I have received from God or being disobedient. You say you chose but don't remember ever really choosing but that isn't my experience. I make conscious choices everyday. I understand God keeps me saved and I'll never choose my way out of being born again, but I do see a point where people can choose to receive Jesus or reject Jesus when they are being called to be saved. If it means for those who reject Jesus that they just haven't been chosen by God for salvation but only called, then that's what it means, and I'll accept it.
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Permalink Reply by Colby on
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Amanda,
Good points to ponder, and I appreciate your biblically-informed perspective on things. Our personal life experiences do have a part to play it seems in how and when we come to faith in Christ. Our conversion experiences can and do vary. The Apostle Paul is a great example. His experience was sudden, dramatic and overwhelming.
Whether God chooses us, or we choose him, as well as other questions relating to the Order (sequence or timing) of Salvation (Ordo Salutis), has been long debated by some of the brightest Christian theologians, each having amassed a good many passages to support their points of view. My mind is far from made up, and I may never know the answer for sure this side of heaven, and until then I will keep digging in the Scriptures. One thing we can't do is attempt to put God in a box.
One thing I am absolutely certain about and on which the Bible is explicitly clear is the "how" of salvation: we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, a free gift of God, through the wooing and calling of the Holy Spirit.
"In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity."
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Colby,
I know you aren't indicating that I'm putting God in a box for sharing what I believe here about this topic, and just for clarification, I want to say that I'm not doing that but am only sharing what I see in Scripture at this point in time, and I have in no way closed myself off to receiving further light on this subject. My mind changes as God reveals Himself to me.
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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on
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Colby,
Your post reminded me of this vid:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iag4qH1EbeY&feature=player_embedded
Human will response to our strongest inclinations. Our strongest inclinations drive our will. Our prejudice, fears, likes and dislikes etc....drive.
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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on
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The problem that we often encounter is that people tend to believe it is an either/or situation. We can have either God being sovereign or we can have man possessing freewill. The problem is that it is not an either/or, but actually a both. God who is sovereign does not surrender one iota of His sovereignty when He by His sovereign will and power freely gives man certain liberties in life. Our liberties and God's sovereignty coexist because He has deemed it so. Now we can debate what those liberties are and how far they go or how restrictive they may be, but regardless we have liberties under God's sovereign rule.
To believe that man has been given liberties also does not change the fact that salvation is all of God and by God, because even the liberty is of Him and by Him.
Lord Bless,
LT
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The problem that we often encounter is that people tend to believe it is an either/or situation. We can have either God being sovereign or we can have man possessing freewill. The problem is that it is not an either/or, but actually a both.
Beautifully said and it makes perfect sense. To suggest otherwise, which is to say that a sovereign God couldn't give man certain liberties is to impose our own thinking on God and to place limits on his sovereignty.
Now we can debate what those liberties are and how far they go or how restrictive they may be, but regardless we have liberties under God's sovereign rule.
Therein lies the crux of the matter.
To believe that man has been given liberties also does not change the fact that salvation is all of God and by God, because even the liberty is of Him and by Him.
Well said. That's the bottom line.
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Amanda,
I had to clean up my last message to you. Sorry yours now appears out of order. Feel free to re-post it under mine. :)>>…for me, it's not about not liking what some say is God's way in this matter, but it's about understanding the true meaning of how we are saved as God's way and the true way.
I believe your statement above is true for most people on this site. I have been very blessed to see many change their views, once lovingly confronted with truth, in God’s timing for each individual of course.
>>I still believe that when light is given by God, along with the light comes the ability, or the enabling by God, to make a decision, even before one is given a new heart and a new spirit.I fully understand what you wrote above and have pondered upon it for years. When light is given to an individual, with it comes the ability or enabling to make a decision only when that individual has been quickened by the Spirit. The person has been made alive. There are many biblical verses that war against the logical conclusion that with light comes the ability for dead man to make a decision for God. As if salvation was left up to the creature to appropriate, by their will and choice, after God has enlighten them. Since we do not have verses clearly stating what you still believe, I choose like millions, to simply leave it where God leaves it, in his sovereignty in election according to his good pleasure. Scripture explicitly states that is not by anything that men can do or will. It is strictly by God’s good pleasure and perfect will.
In light of those verses and a multitude of others I am led to believe that God grants light and calls ALL HUMANITY TO REPENTANCE. But all who do not believe are already condemned. That light does not enable men to choose salvation, without a work of God preceding their choice for life. Humanity is dead in their sin. Dead is dead. The Gospel when preached without the quickening of the Spirit still carries with it power to convict, but is not able to quicken anyone to life. When a person receives Christ, after sharing the word with them through worship, preaching or bible studies etc… is because God has broken through the heart’s resistance. The preaching of the Gospel is a must, for it is the decretive path way, God has ordained for his elect to come to be a part of the Church mainly through the power of the Gospel. Without a new heart and Spirit no one receives/believes/repents.
>>The OT shows many accounts of people responding to God.
No argument there. That is exactly correct, we respond to God, which entails God has done something already, but to what degree. If the person is elected by God onto salvation than the degree is unto salvation, but if God has not elected that person unto salvation, then the Gospel serves to condemned them.
>>In Acts 17, the people were ignorant until they received Paul's preaching.24 “The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. 25 And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. 26 From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. 28 ‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’[b] As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’
Ok – they were ignorant, but preaching/informing people of truth until our face turns blue doesn’t guarantee that one soul will be saved. The seed is planted, but unless God makes it grow, nothing grows. The seed that falls on good ground is the seed that falls in ground God has worked salvation. The recipient of such must believe, repent and receive after the work of God, for many reasons. It is good for us and for those around us to do so. To have a verbal proclamation that we repent and that we believe Christ to have died and resurrected for us is essential to our growth in him from day one. Not to mentioned, that that is how God has ordained for his elect to come into the fold.
>>The difference about who receives Christ and who doesn't receive Christ appears to be on us and not on God.I do not agree with you there. So what do we do with the verses that contradict that logic and show me where you find that in scripture?
>>The difference appears to be in the fact that some have within them a willingness to receive Him.
Show me where you find that in scripture. Where are we taught that some have the willingness to receive him?
>>This receptivity is enabled by God, certainly, and wouldn't exist without God initiating the process. Others fight it and close themselves off from it.
Everyone in the world fights it. So what makes some believe in others not. Is God not giving all the same level of conviction? Is he not giving everyone the same opportunity?
>>Felix in Acts 24 was really fighting it. It doesn't appear to me that the difference between Felix receiving Christ and not receiving Christ was on God not choosing him for salvation but on Felix.
The difference was that God did not elect Felix to be saved at that point. I don’t know if God had elected Felix since before the foundations of the world for him to be saved at a later time, but it was assigned for him to be saved on that day.
24 Several days later Felix came with his wife Drusilla, who was Jewish. He sent for Paul and listened to him as he spoke about faith in Christ Jesus. 25 As Paul talked about righteousness, self-control and the judgment to come, Felix was afraid and said, “That’s enough for now! You may leave. When I find it convenient, I will send for you.”
>>Was Felix not able to receive Christ because of something in Felix that God refused to enable?Felix was not able to received Christ because, like the whole world, he was dead in his sin and assuming Felix was never born again, which we do not know, Jesus Christ our Lord had not specifically died for Felix on the cross. Again - Felix was not chosen to be saved, at that time in history, but I do not know if God had chosen him to be saved at a later time..
Which brings us to the question; did Jesus die for the whole world or his people, the elect?
Blessings sis.
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Did Jesus die for the whole world or his people, the elect?
David, That's a great question. The efficacy of Christ's atonement is one of the five points of the Calvinist/Reformed acronym represented by the TULIP flower. Would you consider opening up a separate discussion devoted to this topic?
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Colby,
You have the honors my brother. Go right ahead and start it. I will share as time permits.
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David,
Clean up your message? What does that mean? I didn't see any curse words in it. :)
I'm still not sure. Acts 17 is pretty self explanatory. I suppose it can be interpreted that only those chosen for salvation would be able to appreciate the things God did in verse 26 and carry out what verse 27 says as to why God did those things -- the word "perhaps" indicates possibility. Was God making it possible for men to seek God and find God by their choice, too, because God already chose to give them the possibilty to make a choice?
24 “The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. 25 And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. 26 From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. 28 ‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’[b] As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’[c]
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