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God and Suicide?
I was reading something about a week ago concerning God and suicide. How can someone ask God to forgive them before they commit suicide? It just doesn't seem like something God can do, because life itselfis a Blessing, so for one to take into themselves to end this seems as though it would be an abomination before God. Anyone got any ideas and closure on this subject?
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on
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Rachel,
The concept presented above requires one to believe that they can lose their salvation and in order to keep their salvation one must repent of each sin every day or even every moment in case one were to die before they repented. That whole line of reasoning is works based and flawed under the New Covenant and grace. Suicide is a work of the flesh and covered under the blood of Jesus and is forgiven through grace that is extended from the cross to all who have been born-again, becoming a new creation and recognized as the children of God.
Is it a sin? Yes, but what sin is not covered under the blood? Does this give us a license to sin? Of course not, but our repentance as a believer is not in order to be resaved, but rather to become usable in the hands of God again in order that we may bring glory to Him through this life.
Lord Bless,
LT
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Permalink Reply by Ginnybee on
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hmm..very interesting. I've wodered about this, too. Ok, so, I uderstand your conclusion, LT, but can you help by expanding some? I mean, in essence, a born again christian chooses life over death...that fact cannot be escaped. Yet, if someone commits suicide, their final choice represents death over life. Therefore, how can it be possible that person is a born-again christian? Thanks ahead for your insight :D
GB
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Ginnybee,
We still live in a fallen world even after becoming a born-again Christian. We still battle the sinful flesh even after our spirits have been changed. The war between the flesh and the spirit, which takes place in the battlefield known as the mind, wears upon many people. They love Jesus, but get beat up and in the midst of the war and lose hope for this life or even act irrationally in a hasty moment.. There are some who may develop a mental disorder even though they are a believer and are not operating from a clear mind. A person who is riddled with cancer and faces immense pain every day. One may have lost a love one and are overcome with grief. Grief and depression come in amny forms and believers are not immune to it. There are hundreds of reasons one might take their own life, none of which are good or right.
The key is not why or how, for we do not walk in their shoes, none-the-less people who know Jesus have committed suicide. The key is does this act somehow negate their relationship with Jesus. Salvation is by grace and is maintained by grace. It cannot be gained by works or lost by works, because it relies on the work of Jesus not man. Suicide, as horrible as it is, is merely a work of the flesh that kills the unregenerated flesh, but the spirit lives on. For the believer that takes this horrible path they are no less saved even though they have sinned by taking their own life. Their salvation is entrusted to and guaranteed by Jesus and His work on our behalf.
Hope that helps, if not please inquire further.
Lord Bless,
LT
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Ok..I've given this some thought, and I believe I need to specify better my own idea. What stops me from instantly accepting that conclusion is that I'm not talking about the works, or the applied act of suicide. More precisely, I'm referring to the person's final thought process, which symbolizes his/her final choice to die rather than live. I understand that our sinful works are forgiven us, even our occassional wicked thoughts, but is it possible that one's conclusive and irrevocable choice to die can be forgiven him/her?
You see, I understand that the evidence of our being filled with the spirit (or evidence of our salvation) is the neverending lure toward repentance. However, with regard to the last decision we ever make in this body, suicide ultimately refuses the Holy Spirit's entitlement to try and correct our predicament. So, all I'm trying to say is my question revolves around a choice, a choice that denies the Holy Spirit's right of personal possession and the ability to continue teaching us. We would be murdering all hope and future potential, which are fundementally favored by the Lord.
The way I see it, for salvation to be, there must be a passage from sin into repentance, or at least into a state of conviction--where we recognize and feel sorry for what we have done. If our final choice is sin, then there is no post era where we can accept the haunting conviction that leads a person back into repentance.
humbly,
Glenda
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Ginnybee,
Here are several questions to ponder.
What is required for salvation?
What is required to keep our slavation?
What is the purpose of repentance for the believer once they are saved?
Does a believer bounce in and out of salvation based on an action and subsequent repentance?
Would a person who tells a lie, or commits any other sin, in the morning and dies in car wreck on the way home before repenting be lost since they died without repenting of the sin?
What sin can separate a child of God from God once they have been saved?
Food for thought.
Lord Bless,
LT
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Ok...this verse comes to me:
Eph 4:26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
To me, this speaks of an important time frame to which we should adhere concerning repentance. Basically saying, its inevitable that we will grow angry at times, but we must not end up (finalize) in anger. It's important to come into the moment of conviction. And here it tells us what that time frame is "let not the sun go down upon your wrath," which can be interperated as--don't find death before conviction finds you.
Another interesting twist is that studies reveal most people who die of natural causes, or who have lived a full, lengthy life, pass away in the night-time hours. Which, to me, seems to imply that by God's natural order of things, He has made so that naturally, we comprise the scale of time that He deems necessary for our conviction to manifest and ultimately, for our repentance to take affect.
Of course, not all people die of natural causes, as you pointed out, and so that might make me think we have one day to clear out our closets, as suggeted by the reference to the sun going down. But, in the case of suicide, still, the person chooses to not partake in that opportunity for personal refinement. The suicidal act is planned and finalized.
Another verse that strikes me with a hint of similarity (although, the context of the scripture is dissimilar in its intent) is this:
Dan 6:14 Then the king, when he heard [these] words, was sore displeased with himself, and set [his] heart on Daniel to deliver him: and he laboured till the going down of the sun to deliver him.
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Hey Ginnybee,
The context in Ephesians is holding onto anger against another person. It is simply instructing us to work through our problems and not carry this with us.
In relation to our current topic we have to first determine whether a person can lose their salvation. Based on your comments I assume that you believe unless a person repents of each sin in life as they go they will not be saved. If that were true then one would have a strong reason to believe a person who commits suicide would be lost. On the other hand I believe that the Word of God teaches us that once saved were are saved eternally and have become new creations (2 Cor. 5:17), are marked for salvation with the indwelling Holy Spirit (2 Cor. 1:22), become the children of God (Jn. 1:12; 1 Jn. 3:1), and that nothing can separate us from God (Ro. 8:35-39). The call to repentance for the believer is a different call than the initial call of repentance that leads to salvation. We have to keep the concept that suicide is a work of the flesh at the center of the issues for that is what it is. Therefore, we have to return to the understanding that as a work of the flesh it cannot separate us from God. We are saved by grace, not works. Our salvation too must be maintained by grace and not works. For one to insist that those who commit suicide are lost because they cannot repent of the act are simply presenting a works based salvation. If one insists that repentance is required then all other sins separate us equally from the Father and if we die before we repent we would be lost. I would not put stock in the idea of time to repent incase you die before the time frame is up you are still OK. Either the sin separates us instantly or not at all. Sin in the life of the beleiver has consequences, but does not cost them their salvation.
For me it depends on the work of Jesus and His shed blood and the grace found in Christ. One other thing can be added and that is no one in their right frame of mind will commit suicide. Something is wrong if they come to the point of taking their own life. The reasons are countless, but all still sin.
Lord Bless,
LT
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LT..first off, thank you for helping me here :)
I understand the context of Ephesians, but the sin of holding on to anger is marked as sin, just as murder is sin, just as suicide is sin. If we are told to not hold on to our anger, then we can assume also that holding on to depressive thoughts of any kind is sin.
I notice too that this topic leads us into the area of whether we believe in once saved always saved, so I'm going to explain my current perspective on that issue. I do believe in that once we become saved we continue to be saved; however, not to the point of suicide. Here is why. With regard to all other sins, besides that of suicide, we continue to walk in the Spirit, or we continue to live, which affords us the opportunity to gain a sense of sorrow for our transgressions. But if we no longer live, we cannot be moved into that state of regret. Our decision for death over life is final. Now, see that I'm not referring to the physical state of repentance where we begin to outwardly confess and change our methods. Rather, I'm pointing to the abstract state of mind, where we simply claim the guilt, which the Holy Spirit brings upon us after we have sinned. It has been my understanding that it's the conviction felt after we sin that marks the difference. Considering all other sins (besides suicide), we can hold confident in the fact that the Holy Spirit will bring us out of the wilderness, so to speak, by filling us with regret. But if the sin is suicide, we terminate the Holy Spirit's ability to respond to our senses; thus, we never accept the shame the Spirit would naturally bring upon us. It represents a definite finalization of our thoughts and emotions.
The time frame I imagine is our allotted window of opportunity to set the record straight according to our senses, not particularly by our reversed actions. As I believe we assume all the time in the world to clean up our act, literally, as long as our senses are appropriately positioned, meaning, we feel the pressing conviction of our misdeeds.
Now, you did state something here that really grabbed me. You suggested there are two types of repentance. I never heard that before. A repentance for salvation--our initial repentance--and a different kind of repentance--a way of the current believer. How is there a difference? Does the bible declare a distinction between the two? I'm very interested in this, because it's new information for me :)
Thank you again for your help....My hope is to learn, and your insight is highly regarded! Hope you know that. :)
Blessings,
Glenda
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I just thought I'd add here, with reference to the time frame, assuming there is one, that suicide would not appear covered by that allotted time the same way an accident would, because even though suicide exemplifies an immediate occurrence of death (within the time frame of one day), the sinful urge to pursue the act usually extends beyond a day. Suicide is usually planned over a number of days before the idea is acted upon. The fact that a person carries the sinful thoughts throughout a series of days up to the point of enactment (which is finalizing) disqualifies that person from the guard of the one-day time frame. Again, only in assuming the time frame is applicable, which, LT, you said you do not assume. However, I just wanted to make clear my viewpoint concerning this, since I already put the idea out there.
GB -
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Permalink Reply by Rachel on
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It is hard for me to understand that someone that commits suicide will be in paradise with God. We all must face judgement individually, concerning all of our good and sinful acts. No one has a right to take themselves nor another human beings life. Life is a gift from God. We have no right, although there is free choice, to alter or destroy what God has provided.. To each his own.
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Hi, Rachel...I understand your wonder. As you can see, I also wonder about this.
I am hoping someone will shed some more light on what I was saying above.
Does anyone out there care to further touch on the ideas I presented?
If not, then I am lead to think that a victim of suicide was never really a born-again christian to start with. Any thoughts on that?
ps..please forgive me for pursuing this topic if it upsets any of you due to personal experiences with this issue. I realize this is a sensitive subject. I mean no harm, but would like to understand this for my self. Thank you all for understanding. -
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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on
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Sis Rachel -
For me the questioned you raised comes down to whether we believe that salvation can be lost or not.
I personally believe that a regenerated/borne again child of God was called and that calling includes his preservation in Faith, so since i believe that I can never lose my salvation (WHICH IS NOT A LICENSE TO SIN), i believe that a born again believer who takes his life will be in paradise.
I pray and hope that anyone entertaining suicide will not find encouragement in what I have written above, but instead that they choose to allow God to show off in their lives. However bad the situation they are going through, God can and loves to bring Glory to His holly name, by turning anything and everything (the more impossible the task for human abilities the better) around for His Glory.
Choose life and to bring Glory to your king. His name is blasphemed because of our short comings. HE WILL NEVER LEAVE YOU NOR FORSAKE YOU FRIEND!
Dv
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