does bible consistently show that when people FIRST recieve Holy Spirit they will speak in tongues?

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on April 13, 2012 at 12:36pm

Mischelle,

 

You are welcome and I am glad it is of use.

 

Lord Bless,

LT

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on April 9, 2009 at 1:27pm

Greg,

I did go back and look to make sure there was not a mistake on my part. I was not, nor have I ever been in a Pentecostal church. I have been in the C&MA since 1992. The AG did come out from the C&MA in the early 1900s, beyond that I don't have an answer for you. The key difference between the AG and C&MA is the "evidence" doctrine.

I have one last Scripture to share and I am done, because we have both spoken our piece and I have not moved any from my original belief. Look at what John 20:21-22 says: "Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit." This is Jesus speaking to the disciples post resurrection and pre-Pentecost. What did they recieve? Is it not the Holy Spirit? If the Holy Spirit only comes in power and not in two seperate events, why would they need to wait in Jerusalem for Him to come on them in power? Food for thought.

Be blessed,
LT

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Permalink Reply by GREG ROBY on April 9, 2009 at 8:45pm

YES YES YES.. I BEEN WAITING FOR YOU TO SAY THAT TO BACK UP YOUR BELIEF... now you used the scripture to PROVE your point... that they had the HOLY SPIRIT BEFORE PENTECOST.. now that you used that scripture i will SHOW YOU YOUR ERROR... look again at that scripture... if your say they recieved the holy spirit at that time, please look again... keep reading ... THOMAS WAS NOT THERE.. therefore u would be saying that they was born again but thomas was not... further more if u believe that 120 believers was filled at pentecost was they with the 10 disciples also at time of john chapter 20:22? CAN U SEE UR VIEW IS WRONG WITH YOUR OWN SCRIPTURE...
now i will show u CONTRADICTION TO THAT SCRIPTURE WITH OTHER SCRIPTURE.. you say john 20:22 proves they recieved the holy spirit at that time, welll then i guess that would make Jesus a liar for saying YOU CANT RECIEVE THE COMFORTER "UNTIL" IM GLORIFIED...(JOHN 16:7).. He said IF I GO NOT AWAY THE HOLY SPIRIT WILL NOT COME... do u say Jesus lied or do u say maybe you are in error for your belief... need more scripture? john 7:37-39. so now look what im saying and please listen first before u respond... in acts 1:4 JESUS SAID WAIT FOR THE PROMISE... what was the promise.. it was the gift of Holy ghost right? then look at verse 5 he calls that promise the baptism of holy spirit.. v8 notice he says it will bring empowerment.. NOW STOP AND THINK WITHOUT PRECONCIEVED THOUGHTS.. is it possible that HE WAS TALKING ABOUT RECIEVING THE HOLY GHOST AND SAYING THAT IS EMPOWERMENT.. so therefore there is NO SEPERATION... the recieving of HOLY SPIRIT IS THE BORN AGAIN EXPERIENCE.. YOU RECIEVE POWER THE MOMENT THE SPIRIT COMES ON INSIDE.. when did that happen AT PENTECOST.. NOT IN JOHN 20:22.. that would contradict everything Jesus said about HOLY SPIRIT PERIOD... jn 7:37-39, john 14:26;15:26;16:7; acts 1:4... NOW IF YOU DENY THAT CONTRADICTS THEN I KNOW UR A MAN JUST TRYING TO HOLD TO WHAT U BELIEVE INSTEAD OF WHAT BIBLE SAYS... when he said that to them in john 20:22 he was speaking a blessing on them.. that later came to pass at pentecost... if u dont believe that then u havae to account for THOMAS WAS NOT YET SAVED(SPIRIT ON INSIDE) AND NEITHER WAS APROX 110 OTHER DISCIPLES IF U SAY 120 GOT FILLED AT PENTECOST...doesnt match up with your view..let alone contradiction.. so my only question is this IF U BELIEVE THEY RECIEVED THE INDWELLING HOLY SPIRIT IN JOHN 20:22(WHICH IS BEFORE CHRIST WAS TAKEN BACK UP TO HEAVEN) DOES THAT CONTRADICT john 16:7 and 7:37-39.. ps good debate but i knew u would search for a scripture to have to back up ur view. cause u see that you would have to use SCRIPTURE to prove that these people ALREADY HAD SPIRIT "IN" THEM before pentecost .. and in other chapters that u would have to prove they had HOLY SPIRIT IN THEM before SCRIPTURE said they was baptized in holy ghost and u cant...SO TO USE JOHN 20:22 IS ERROR.. with seeing that would u be a man of God and stand for truth or will u hold to YOUR VIEW... this same debate i just had with ASSEMBLIES OF GOD PASTOR TWO WEEKS AGO, and IT DESTROYED HIS WHOLE VIEW... THAT ONE SCRIPTURE... his response was yea i see what ur saying but if he agreed with me he would have to leave his church and he aint prepared to do that and he definitly aint changing what has been taught there for ever... wow... please dont be like him.. search that one scripture YOU USED and see if it contradicts scripture.. its not about me or u who is right ... its about are you a teacher but will teach something that contradicts scripture... i love you and hope u atleast read that again.. cause i knew eventually u would use it and i was hoping u would so u would finally see what im saying..... GOD BLESS YOU

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on April 10, 2009 at 2:40am

Greg,

I am going to give the simplest answer possible to your very "proud" statement. Whether one beleives in the literal statement of John 20:22 or not it disproves nothing I have said up to my last posting and changes nothing I said in the last post itself if you go back and read it. If it is literal truth (which I take it at face value) and "Breathing" means more than a blessing they received the Holy Spirit at that time as a deposit guaranteeing and marking them for salvation. If it is only a blessing, which makes no sense, it does not disprove anything I have said. For the whole of this discussion is not based on when the original disciples where marked or filled, but rather what is the truth regarding recieving the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and being filed with the Holy Spirit. The truth of two seperate events, that can occur at the same time, but rarely does, has not been altered. Our discussion is going in circles and profits nothing to continue it any further. I am not shaken in my convictions and based on your interesting interpretation regarding me it means to you as you state, "UR A MAN JUST TRYING TO HOLD TO WHAT U BELIEVE INSTEAD OF WHAT BIBLE SAYS" you value nothing I say, because I still stand on the doctrine as originally presented. I would recommend you study two important things. 1) When was Jesus glorified and 2) When did he return to the Father (I did not say ascend to heaven). I will leave that between you and God.

Regardless, I am finished in this thread as I stated in my last post, but felt it necessary to at least respond one more time.

Lord Bless,
LT.

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Permalink Reply by GREG ROBY on April 10, 2009 at 9:52am

ok. wow i figured all of sudden im the bad guy.. IM PROUD.. cause i stand for truth.. i just dont understand why u cant see that i consider REICIVING, FELL ON, FELL UPON, BAPTISED IN SPIRIT, =ALL THE SAME THING.. if u look at what happened at pentecost it is discribed in all those words= filled, fell on, baptized in spirit, recieved the holyghost.. THATS ALL I BEEN SAYING THE WHOLE TIME.. you seperate the INDWELLLING FROM THE BAPTISM OF HOLY SPIRIT... and im saying read it and u will find that it USES ALL THOSE LABELS FOR SAME THING... therefore if being baptized in holy spirit is what scriptures are referring to in ACT 2, 8,10,19 THEN scripture CLEARLY SHOWS THATS WHEN THEY (FIRST) recieved the SPIRIT ON INSIDE(INDWELLT, SEALED).. YOU CANT PROVE IN ANY OF THOSE SCRIPTURES with SCRIPTURE that they had the indwelling of spirit ALREADY before the SCRIPTURE says the spirit came on them... so who is the proud one.. YOU USED JOHN 20:22 to back it up not me. and now u see it contradicited what your point is.. then u turn it on me. so i do think its best we dont talk anymore.. and its sad that u think im proud for standing for what truth says... and one other point you say take it literal then take ACTS 19 literal then.. when he said did u recieve holy spirit since u believed.. and they answered we havent even hearad of HOLY GHOST... that would mean they didnt have holy ghost yet.. but u say they did...its sad that in a debate you wasnt even willing to listen to otherside but you put that claim on me... i was actually hoping u was right so i could feel comfortable about alot of friends i know who hasnt been baptized in spirit yet. but when i see that YOU ALREADY HAVE UR OWN IDEAS, JUST SO U CAN BACK UP YOUR STORY OF SALVATION, i realized i must stay with what i beleive.... and last thing.. sounds like you teach a ACCEPT JESUS AS SAVIOUR, but you can CHOSE WHEN TO ACCEPT HIM AS LORD.. I BELIEVE WE MUST ACCEPT HIM AS BOTH AT SAME TIME.. everyone wants a savior but dont want the Lordship until they get older or hit rock bottom.. that means anyone right now could SAY they want saved and you would say they are cause of PROFESSION.. if so they need to read matt 7:21-23. God bless. oh and it does matter when apostles WAS MARKED FOR SALVATION.. because with your scripture u chose it would say they WAS INDWELT AT THAT MOMENT(marked and sealed for salvation), but that would contradict Jesus words... there for the mark of salvation didnt happen until pentecost, which would then prove that power comes WHEN a person is marked or sealed NOT A SEPERATE THING.. that was whole discussion... and with you using john 20:22. you would dismiss THOMAS FROM BEING MARKED FOR SALVATION THEN... so that would say he wasnt saved YET and neither was other 110 disciples who was in upper room either.. SO I ASK WHEN WAS THOMAS MARKED FOR SALVATION AND OTHER 110? your the one that proud, cause your already a pastor so u cant change your view cause u already established what u believe.. we can all be wrong... but to see it and still fight it shows your in it for self not for whole truth...

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on April 10, 2009 at 2:39pm

Greg,

Statng that your statement was a very "proud" statement makes you to be the bad guy, like "how'? You think I disrespected you, by stating the post was very "proud"? I will endeavor to show you the pride I was speaking of that came through in your previous post. You state you had been waiting for that Scripture so you can show me my error. If that verse was critical (which it is not and thus the reason I did not use it earlier) to my position, why would you wait prepared to spring as if you "Got Me" (when you don't)? Why didn't you use it earlier against me if it is that important? It is because nothing I said depended on the verse and still does not. You also presume to think that unless I agree with what you state I am the following, " NOW IF YOU DENY THAT CONTRADICTS THEN I KNOW UR A MAN JUST TRYING TO HOLD TO WHAT U BELIEVE INSTEAD OF WHAT BIBLE SAYS." Thus either I agree or am a fool because I don't agree with you. Lastly you present a case were you used this to destroy a man's view, a pastor at that... and he could not change because of his denominatonal ties (implying if I did not agree that I would be even worse than him) which you did in your last sentence of your last statement. The whole post smacks of pride, not just standing on God's Word.

You also missed the original topic and the key to your doctrine. Your title even gives it away. According to you, unless a person is speaking in tongues they are not filled with the Holy Spirit, and unless you are filled (baptized) with the Holy Spirit you are not saved....that is what you have attested to in this debate. Thus, everyone who does not speak int tongues is still lost. With that I whole heartedly disagree. And nothing has been added to change my position regarding salvation and sanctification.

I am a fool in one respect. I am letting you pull me back in after I have said I am done. You believe you are correct and I believe I am correct in regards to this topic. It is obvious that further discussion will not sway you and I am sure it will not sway me.

Lord Bless,
LT

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Permalink Reply by GREG ROBY on April 10, 2009 at 11:01pm

God bless you man.. as far as title what im saying is there are debates on wether there is a seperationg from the MOMENT OF INDWELLING OF HOLY SPIRIT and THE BAPTISM OF HOLY SPIRIT... i debate there is no difference its all ONE THING.. once i prove that then we get to the point of does scriptures show that when someone is Baptized in spirit do they speak in tongues.. is it consistent in scriptures... so in order to even get to the tongues we have to first determine if scripture shows that a group of people FIRST recieve the holy spirit is it also the baptism of holy spirit... so we didnt even get to get to tongues.. but you beleive there is a difference and that the empowerent(baptism of holy spirit) is different from the born again experience( when holy spirit FIRST comes to dwelll IN a beleiver... i was showing you that your point of view does not conincide with scripture.. and its not about agreeing with me.. its about agreeing with what is writtten in scripture... pride would be YOU SAYING YOUR SAVED AT 5 BECAUSE YOU MADE A DECISION.. OR SAYING SINCE SOMEONE "SAID" THEY BELIEVE IN GOD NOW THEIR SAVED.. THATS PRIDE... as if GOD doesnt determine who is saved and when they are saved.. you saying a person can ASK JESUS INTO HEART and simply beleive that NOW the holy spirit is in them.. GOD DETERMINES WHEN HE WANTS TO SAVE A PERSON.. not the persons VERBAL DECISION.. OR JUST BECAUSE A PERSON DECIDES TO GET BAPTIZED INTO WATER... THATS PRIDE... i guess you told God when u was saved or when u had the holy spirit... thats pride.. but like i said you can believe what u want, and wether u speak in tongues or not, i still love you and hope u prosper in whatever God called u to do.. and the reason i was happy about u using John 20:22 was because i thought u finally understood what i was talking bout from begining. that no matter your view you had to use a scripture to show that there is a difference of BEING INDWELT FIRST THEN EMPOWERED.. AND U WENT TO THAT SCRIPTURE TO PROVE YOUR VIEW.. and that view CLEARLY CONTRADICTS JESUS IN JOHN 16:7.. THAT MAKES UR VIEW WRONG... so until we could see where u was missing it at we couldnt even get to point of tongues... DOES USING THAT SCRIPTURE TO PROVE THEY HAD SPIRIT ALREADY CONTRADICT JOHN 16:7. WILL U ADMIT THAT? if not thats pride.

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on April 11, 2009 at 6:08am

Greg,

To "know" when one has been saved and to proclaim my salvation is not pride, but humility and giving glory to God who saved me, for it is none of me, but all Him. You assume still that my POV requires John 20:22, and it does not. Either view, recieved (my view) or blessing (your view), does not change the doctrine of sanctification as I understand it and teach it. There is no contradiction when viewed with John 16:7 which states "unless I go away." Let's look and see why there is no contradistion.

When was Jesus glorified and when did He go away? Do you say at the ascension or is it the resurrection, or at His death? Did Jesus not rise in glory and in the glorified body at the resurrection or did He wait for the glorified body and the resurrection meant nothing? Do we celebrate the resurrection or the ascension? Did Jesus wait until the ascension to "be glorified?" Would that mean He walked the earth for 40 days in an unglorfied state following the resurrection? Did Jesus not go away at His death for three days? His going away and His glorification have already been fufliflled at the time of His breathing on them according to Scripture. For even Jesus tells them in John 16:16 that "In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me." Now read the rest of John 16:17-24. He was not alluding to His ascension, but clearly to His death and resurrection. Their grief was following His death and joy following His resurrection. So the coming of the Spirit in John 20:22 is not at all contradictory to John 16:7, but very much in alignment with the whole of God's Word.

Let's look at some evidence of His going to the Father prior to His ascension to clarify that point. Mary came to Jesus in John 20 :17. Jesus responds to her and tells her to not take hold of Him because He had not yet gone to the Father. Yet, in John 20:26-27 Jesus tells Thomas to touch Him. It is only reasonable that he had returned to the Father or He could not be touched here either.

His ascension, the visible action of it, was for the benefit of the disciples. They were given an illustration (visible example) and told that Jesus would return in the same manner as He just left. Keep in mind that the resurrected Jesus is not bound in the new body by space as He walked through doors and transports from one area to another and no where do we see that He was not capable of going to the Father prior to the ascenion and come back. In fact, can one explain where Jesus was in between visits with the dsciples?

Regarding the breathing on them you cannot prove it to be a blessing. Your position crumbles if this is not a blessing but in fact them receiving the Holy Spirit. The interpretation of John 20:22 is critical to your position, not mine. The terms used here suggest not a mere blessing, but an action that took place and I take it for what it says.

Lets look at the word "Breathed." From the NIV the word is found 14 times. All but one deal with life, and that one exception is the last one which states that all of Scriputre is God-breathed (2Tim. 3:16). The first usage is when God breathed life into Adam (Gen. 2:7) and the next to last (John 20:22) deals with them receiveing the Holy Spirit. There is no restriction to this happening at this time as I have pointed out from Scripture. All the rest deal with life or death. Not once is the word associated with a blessing.

Brother, I am not standing on pride, but reading what Scripture says and holding closely to God and not willing to be swayed by man. If trusting God's Word is pride, then I am guilty. I will add one last thing, which will sound like pride, but I assure you it is not. At my ordination exam I told the examining board that I would remain in the C&MA as long as we agree doctrinally. The day we disagree I will leave, because I WILL NOT STAY TO SATISFY MAN, BUT ONLY SEEK TO SURRENDER TO AND SERVE GOD. Do not accuse me again of tryng to protect something and think that I am not seeking truth, whether we ever agree or not.

Lord Bless,
LT

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Permalink Reply by GREG ROBY on April 11, 2009 at 6:58pm

i am glad you say u would not stay if you didntg agree with the doctrine of the church. that is the same thing that the pastor i told u about i debated with said to and i respect that. but when i went to his office and showed him all he could say was well that would mean i would have to change the doctrine and he is not doing that or that he should leave the denomination and he isnt prepared at this time.. so i take it that your saying glorification is before he was taken back to sit on the throne? i think your also saying that after ressurection that He went back to heaven, so when He appeared then are you saying He left heaven and came back to appear to disciples for 40 days? would that mean it was a second coming? also i wanted to say YOU used john 20:22.. u say it has nothing to do with your point of view, then why did you use it.. and further more you STILL havent answered WHEN DID THOMAS GET INDWELT WITH SPIRIT... he wasnt there at that moment? and neither was other 110 disciples which make up the 120 that got filled at pentecost... and u say no contradiction with JOHN 16:7. all though i dont like to use commentaries many bible commentaries will even tell you that it would contradict those scriptures.. but all in all I WILL SAY SORRY and ask you to forgive me for calling u prideful for saying your saved.. i do beleive one should be assured of it... what i was trying to say was that when people believe in DECISIONAL REGENERATION OR BAPTISMAL REGENERATION that is prideful putting the point of salvation in their power and not by power of God... i will try to solve this debate in this.. wether one speaks in tongues or not AS LONG AS THEY HAVE HOLY SPIRIT ON "INSIDE" OF THEM they are considered my brother in Christ... secondly i want to propose for agreement that ONE SHOULD NOT base the assurance on their salvation on a one time confession of accepting Jesus into His or Her heart.. one must be assured of the presence of God in them.... to many people walking around PROFESSING CHRIST based on a one time profession, and have NO RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD AT ALL.... and on point of John 20:22 just want make sure YOU ARE SAYING THAT JESUS BEING GLORIFIED DIDNT MEAN THAT HE HAD TO BE BACK IN HEAVEN? IS THAT YOUR STAND. what do u think about ACTS 2:33. so your totally ruling out that it was a spoken blessing.. do u believe in speaking blessing is biblical.. and again if dont change ur view thats fine... still would have to accoung for THOMAS BEING BREATHED ON.. AND OTHER 110.. with my view what would not be understandable about it..

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on April 12, 2009 at 5:08pm

Greetings Greg …. Again :-),

i am glad you say u would not stay if you didntg agree with the doctrine of the church. that is the same thing that the pastor i told u about i debated with said to and i respect that. but when i went to his office and showed him all he could say was well that would mean i would have to change the doctrine and he is not doing that or that he should leave the denomination and he isnt prepared at this time.. I cannot speak for this man, nor should I be compared to him. His actions have no connection to me nor are they a reflection of me in any way. Thus, this whole comparison has no value in our discussion.


so i take it that your saying glorification is before he was taken back to sit on the throne? The timing of Jesus glorification is not critical to my position on this topic. Whether one was indwelt by the Holy Spirit or not before Pentecost is not critical to my position. It is critical to your position. (see comment at the bottom)



i think your also saying that after ressurection that He went back to heaven, so when He appeared then are you saying He left heaven and came back to appear to disciples for 40 days? would that mean it was a second coming? This is not critical either. We regressed into discussing prior to Pentecost. The biblical understanding of indwelling and filling does not depend on the info we have discussed regarding the period prior to Pentecost. I again ask you to look at the situation with Mary. What changed from Mary not being able to touch Jesus and the disciples being able to a short time later? What was the reason she could not touch Him?


also i wanted to say YOU used john 20:22.. u say it has nothing to do with your point of view, then why did you use it.. I tossed it out as a food for thought at what was going to be the close of my debate with you because it was not critical to my position, but to give you something to ponder considering your position. I actually said that my position does not require the verse. If (hypothetical) nothing happened before Pentecost and we only start at Pentecost, then we still find a dual event happening at the same time based on all the comments I made before tossing out John 20:22. If nothing happened prior to Pentecost we see the indwelling and filling happening at the same time. I have never stated that they cannot happen at the same time, but that they do not always happen at the same time. You see one event and I see two events happening at the same time in this occasion.




and further more you STILL havent answered WHEN DID THOMAS GET INDWELT WITH SPIRIT... he wasnt there at that moment? and neither was other 110 disciples which make up the 120 that got filled at pentecost... When Thomas got indwelt is not critical to my position using the same argument as before. I cannot tell you the moment he got sealed with certainty, and do not have to in order to hold the view I have. I believe He was sealed no later than his experience with Jesus in the upper room, but that changes nothing if I am wrong regarding my view of indwelling and filling.


and u say no contradiction with JOHN 16:7. all though i dont like to use commentaries many bible commentaries will even tell you that it would contradict those scriptures. Other commentaries disagree with you and see the John 20:22 as them receiving the Holy Spirit. Thus the commentaries nullify each other and we are left where we have been. As you are aware, commentaries are the views of man.


. but all in all I WILL SAY SORRY and ask you to forgive me for calling u prideful for saying your saved.. i do beleive one should be assured of it... what i was trying to say was that when people believe in DECISIONAL REGENERATION OR BAPTISMAL REGENERATION that is prideful putting the point of salvation in their power and not by power of God... I agree with you and state I never fit into the view you are pointing out. I experienced salvation, not just making a profession of faith or decision. The power of my salvation has nothing to do with me, but God. My only part was surrendering to Him.


i will try to solve this debate in this.. wether one speaks in tongues or not AS LONG AS THEY HAVE HOLY SPIRIT ON "INSIDE" OF THEM they are considered my brother in Christ... Amen!!! The problem is, though, you believe that everyone who is filled must speak in tongues, or they have not actually been filled. Is that not your belief? Please correct me where I am wrong and we may come a lot closer together on our views.


secondly i want to propose for agreement that ONE SHOULD NOT base the assurance on their salvation on a one time confession of accepting Jesus into His or Her heart.. one must be assured of the presence of God in them.... to many people walking around PROFESSING CHRIST based on a one time profession, and have NO RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD AT ALL.... We agree.



and on point of John 20:22 just want make sure YOU ARE SAYING THAT JESUS BEING GLORIFIED DIDNT MEAN THAT HE HAD TO BE BACK IN HEAVEN? IS THAT YOUR STAND. what do u think about ACTS 2:33. Acts 2:33 uses a specific Greek word. The word for exalt is defined as follows - Exalt: “1. hupsoo (5312), “to lift up” (akin to hupsos, “height”), is used (a) literally of the “lifting” up of Christ in His crucifixion, John 3:14; 8:28; 12:32, 34; illustratively, of the serpent of brass, John 3:14; (b) figuratively, of spiritual privileges bestowed on a city, Matt. 11:23; Luke 10:15; of “raising” to dignity and happiness, Luke 1:52; Acts 13:17; of haughty self-exaltation, and, contrastingly, of being “raised” to honor, as a result of self-humbling, Matt. 23:12; Luke 14:11; 18:14; of spiritual “uplifting” and revival, Jas. 4:10; 1 Pet. 5:6; of bringing into the blessings of salvation through the gospel, 2 Cor. 11:7; (c) with a combination of the literal and metaphorical, of the “exaltation” of Christ by God the Father, Acts 2:33; 5:31” (Vines)

The Greek word does not refer to glorification, which is different from being lifted up or exalted high.

On the other hand we see the word for glorification as follows - Glorification: 1. doxazo (1392) primarily denotes “to suppose” (from doxa, “an opinion”); in the NT (a) “to magnify, extol, praise” (see doxa below), especially of “glorifying”; God, i.e., ascribing honor to Him, acknowledging Him as to His being, attributes and acts, i.e., His glory (see GLORY), e.g., Matt. 5:16; 9:8; 15:31; Rom. 15:6, 9; Gal. 1:24; 1 Pet. 4:16; the Word of the Lord, Acts 13:48; the Name of the Lord, Rev. 15:4; also of “glorifying” oneself, John 8:54; Rev. 18:7; (b) “to do honor to, to make glorious,” e.g., Rom. 8:30; 2 Cor. 3:10; 1 Pet. 1:8, “full of glory,” passive voice (lit., “glorified”); said of Christ, e.g., John 7:39; 8:54, RV, “glorifieth,” for KJV, “honor” and “honoreth” (which would translate timao, “to honor”); of the Father, e.g., John 13:31, 32; 21:19; 1 Pet. 4:11; of “glorifying” one’s ministry, Rom. 11:13, RV, “glorify” (KJV, “magnify”); of a member of the body, 1 Cor. 12:26, “be honored” (RV marg., “be glorified”).
“As the glory of God is the revelation and manifestation of all that He has and is … , it is said of a Self-revelation in which God manifests all the goodness that is His, John 12:28. So far as it is Christ through whom this is made manifest, He is said to glorify the Father, John 17:1, 4; or the Father is glorified in Him, 13:31; 14:13; and Christ’s meaning is analogous when He says to His disciples, ‘Herein is My Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; and so shall ye be My disciples,’ John 15:8. When doxazo is predicated of Christ … , it means simply that His innate glory is brought to light, is made manifest; cf. 11:4. So 7:39; 12:16, 23; 13:31; 17:1, 5. It is an act of God the Father in Him.… As the revelation of the Holy Spirit is connected with the glorification of Christ, Christ says regarding Him, ‘He shall glorify Me,’ 16:14” (Cremer). (Vines)

There is a big difference in their meanings.


so your totally ruling out that it was a spoken blessing.. do u believe in speaking blessing is biblical.. and again if dont change ur view thats fine... I believe in biblical blessings. I do not read this as such. It states very clearly what it means, but we have already been down that trail.


still would have to accoung for THOMAS BEING BREATHED ON.. AND OTHER 110.. with my view what would not be understandable about it.. This is not critical to my position of indwelling and filling. For the sake of argument, Thomas could easily be seen as indwelt no later than his encounter with Jesus. The 110 are believed to have been present based on other verses that refer to those with them in the upper room. Even if that is not the case, the timing of their indwelling is not critical to my position as stated before.

I repeat. My position is not affected negatively by any of the events prior to Pentecost. If nothing happened my view stands. If they were indwelt then my position is further solidified. Whereas, your position crumbles if something did occur prior to Pentecost and the position is not proven if nothing happened.

Lord Bless,
LT

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on January 21, 2010 at 1:04am

LT -

Can a brother get a word in this discussions?

You do such an awesome job that i got nothing else to say hahaahaha

I saw this at lunch time and rush home to find you said it all hahahaaha and very well said.

Love you bro -

when i grow up - i want to be just like you hahaahaa Blessings bro!

Rock on...!

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on January 21, 2010 at 8:40am

Thanks for the positive word.

Brother, don't set your sites to low, keep Jesus as the mark. :-)

Lord Bless,
LT

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