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does bible consistently show that when people FIRST recieve Holy Spirit they will speak in tongues?
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Permalink Reply by Amanda on
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LT,
You asked: How in the world do you read that into what I said
Well, let's see.
1.) I was looking at the other POV (baptism evidenced by tongues).
2.) I asked: I mean being baptized or flooded thoroughly with the Spirit--how could the Spirit not speak with the person's tongue in such an event?
3.) Then I asked: Then one must ask if the baptism only happens to the truly saved, or if one can be born again but never receive the Holy Ghost Baptism?
4.) Then I said: It makes the narrow way that much more narrow.
Lol! (Laughing at myself, not at you)
Your answer was: Living surrendered to Christ so that it is He that lives through you is a very narrow way.
I took that to mean that the way is very narrow as opposed to the broad way being even more wide due to the narrow way getting even more narrow because people are paying only lip service and not getting baptized with the Holy Ghost.
Just pray for me.
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Permalink Reply by RoyW on
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Amanda,
I was wondering the same thing. You also seemed to indicate that the post could possibly be saying that without the gift of tongues we might not possibly be on the narrow way or not saved. I read and reread the post and feel that you had some things in mind when you read it and let that enter into the discussion even though those things were never said. Just reading the post, I see no way that it was making that kind of assertion. I think someone earlier made that statement and I believe we all should filter that statement out as the great majority here do not believe that. I have been around Pentecostals and charismatics all my life and have never met someone face to face that actually believed that. I have met many that believed that tongues was evidence of the Holy Spirit baptism but have never met anyone that believed it was necessary to speak in tongues to be saved. I know some believe that but they are very, very much in the extreme minority. I have never met one. I would encourage you to just filter that out of your mind. There is no where in the Bible to justify such a belief.
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Now, I am just talking to myself or anyone - There are those who are strongly against the present day use of the gift of tongues. I have seen them use the idea that Pentecostals teach that you must speak in tongues to be saved. Now, not many will use that but some will. I will say that this is a completely irresponsible and false statement used to emphasize a point. Pentecostals and almost all charismatics do not believe that or teach that. I think that those who teach that sort of doctrine would probably be in the category of a cult. That is not a Pentecostal doctrine. Those saying such things should cease doing so. Fortunately, there aren't that many spreading those kind of false things.
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Roy, if you ever come back and reply to yourself after talking to yourself, then I will be very worried about you but right now it appears things are safe.
It is my understanding that the Oneness denominations teach this. Also, the poster of this discussion, from what he says in the initial post and his replies, seems to believe that tongues are a sign of the indwelling Spirit for salvation.
Biblically, just going by my intellect, and after everything everyone has said here to me, I make the inference that not everyone speaks in tongues because not everyone can because not everyone is given the gift.
Oneness Pentecostals believe that the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is a free gift, commanded for all. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oneness_Pentecostalism#The_Baptism_of_...
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You are correct about the oneness church. I guess I was putting them into the wrong category. Since I have met some oneness people I should rephrase my statement by saying I have never heard anyone say they believe that tongues was necessary.
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LT, I think Charles Stanley teaches something like when you became a believer you received all of the Holy Spirit there is. The question is not how much of the Spirit is in you, but how much of you is in the Spirit.
I have believed the first part of that statement but don't think I understand the second part. I suppose it alludes to sanctification and walking and living in the Spirit.
It seems we all yield to the Spirit at the time we are saved and thereafter but some do more than others.
If all our sins, past, present, and future are forgiven at salvation, and in John 17:17 Jesus said, Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth, then where would the second work come into the picture?
I don't really understand that whole pasage in John 17 where Jesus prays about sanctification.
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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on
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I like Stanley, but acknowledge that I would expect nothing less than what you said he believes based on his background and affiliation.
The clearest way of describing this is to focus on the "filling" or "being filled' with the Holy Spirit. There are various views, I understand that. I still see from Scripture the difference between receiving the deposit of the Holy Spirit who comes to indwell us and being filled, which is to empower us. Most are happy to live what is known as a carnal Christian life, that term can easily offend people, though it it not said by me to do so. They will live according to the flesh, meaning their actions and reactions are based on the flesh in their own strength. They can even look good for a while, but it is only through their strength. Our goal is complete surrender and His life to be lived through us. That is accomplished only when we are emptied of self and filled with the Holy Spirit and we will continue to flourish spiritually that leads to outward actions as long as we continue to be filled with the Holy Spirit. There are two phases with two parts in each phase. Phase one is the crisis. I must come to the end of self and recognize I cannot live for Him in my own strength while living according to my will. At this point we ask God to fill us and He does. Some will say I have asked that ... great! Were you to the point of nothing else could satisfy the burning in your soul? Did you reach the point of absolutely wanting to let go and give all, I repeat ALL, over to God? It is not some prayer but a state of being that leads us to yield and in that yieldness He responds, for in my weakness He is made strong. There is more to him working through our weakness than just our attributes ... there is a broken spirit. If you will think of a bronc-buster. He rides that wild stallion until the horse is broke. Then, with bridle in mouth, the once wild horse will go wherever the rider directs. The second phase is to know that it is a progressive life. God continues to work on us and through us. This is a life-long process.
Lastly, the word sanctification has a base meaning with varied applications. Its base meaning is to set apart and relates to holiness. We are holy becuase Christ is holy. The holiness we possess is that of Christ Himself at salvation. We have been changed spiritually and are even now called the children of God. Yet, there is also the experiential side that is lived out daily. Do our lives, or the lives of most Christians really resemble the character of Jesus as revealed in Scripture? Now, without focusing our attention too much on others, let's personalize this. Do I really live for the will of God or do I live by the will of LT? The goal is to live daily by and in the will of God. This is only possible through the power and presence of the Holy Spirit as given to us when we are filled with the Holy Spirit. Again, this new life, the Deeper-Life, is progressive, but there will be obvious progression taking place. There will be recognizable fruit that comes naturally as part of the process of God causing the fruit in the surrendered life instead of the person trying to force fruit to grow.
I repeat that there are others who believe differently. I cannot change anyone's mind. I can only attest to what I see as true and take a stand on His Word accordingly. Though one believe's differently does not change the reality that they are my brother or sister in Jesus if they have been born again.
"O Lord, Breathe Thy Spirit on Me" By A.B. Simpson
- O Lord, breathe Thy Spirit on me, Teach me how to breathe Thee in; Help me pour into Thy bosom All my life of self and sin.
- I am breathing out my sorrow, Breathing out my sin; I am breathing, breathing, breathing, All Thy fulness in.
- I am breathing out my own life, That I may be filled with Thine; Letting go my strength and weakness, Breathing in Thy life divine.
- Breathing out my sinful nature, Thou hast borne it all for me; Breathing in Thy cleansing fulness, Finding all my life in Thee.
- I am breathing out my sorrow, On Thy kind and gentle breast; Breathing in Thy joy and comfort, Breathing in Thy peace and rest.
- I am breathing out my sickness, Thou hast borne its burden too; I am breathing in Thy healing, Ever promised, ever new.
- I am breathing out my longings In Thy listening, loving ear; I am breathing in Thy answers, Stilling every doubt and fear.
- I am breathing every moment, Drawing all my life from Thee; Breath by breath I live upon Thee, Lord, Thy Spirit breathe in me.
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Here are just some thoughts and there’s no hurry to answer if you even feel led to respond.
>Most are happy to live what is known as a carnal Christian life, that term can easily offend people, though it it not said by me to do so. They will live according to the flesh, meaning their actions and reactions are based on the flesh in their own strength. They can even look good for a while, but it is only through their strength. Our goal is complete surrender and His life to be lived through us. That is accomplished only when we are emptied of self and filled with the Holy Spirit and we will continue to flourish spiritually that leads to outward actions as long as we continue to be filled with the Holy Spirit.
It is difficult for many to think that even after they started a genuine relationship with Jesus and were born again that they still lack the fullness of the Spirit and are considered “carnal” and still need another major conversion so to speak.
It is like Christians are divided into two different categories and that can easily offend someone or make them think they are inferior.
I have been reading the gospels and the first case I see in the NT of someone being filled is actually a woman--the mother of John the Baptist. But that was before the new birth. Luke 1:41, When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit (NIV).
It appears the same filling came to the baby she was carrying also and then to her husband later on. According to Luke 1:6 Elizabeth and Zechariah were already righteous and living for God before the filling.
Then in Luke 4:1 it says, And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness (KJV).
Did Jesus experience the filling or was He already born filled? Luke 3:21-22 says, When all the people were being baptized, Jesus was baptized too. And as he was praying, heaven was opened 22 and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased” (NIV).
It would seem that Christ would be always full of God’s Spirit on earth but I am not certain.
Of course in Acts we know the believers were filled on the day of Pentecost but many say that is the day the new birth became available to them and they all were born again and sealed with the Spirit then. But John 20:22 seems to say that some of them already had the Holy Spirit. As the hymn A.B. Simpson wrote. I visited the link and read some of the comments. I didn’t know that part about Simpson’s health. He breathed in the Spirit and received daily healing … that was very inspiring to me.
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Amanda,
It is difficult for many to think that even after they started a genuine relationship with Jesus and were born again that they still lack the fullness of the Spirit and are considered “carnal” and still need another major conversion so to speak.
It is not a conversion, but an empowerment. It is called a second act of grace only because it is available, but not all partake. Many still walk according to the flesh and seek to fulfill their will in life instead of seeking to be submitted to His in all things. If you listen long enough to most people their concern is not about His will and glory, but their will and an easier life.
It is like Christians are divided into two different categories and that can easily offend someone or make them think they are inferior.
There are not two groups, for there is only one salvation. There is more of God available through the fullness of the Spirit. Here we find His manifested presence and empowerment to live for Him in the Spirit. People who have not experienced the filling of the Holy Spirit IMO will only think they are inferior because of pride. How dare someone tell me that I don’t have the fullness of God!!! Instead, they should not be looking to others, but hungering and chasing after God. There are several books by Tommy Tenney that I encourage people to read in a series starting with “God Chasers.” On the other side of the coin I do not look down on someone because I have experienced His fullness (at this level in my life) and others have not. My desire is for them to experience the Deeper-Life too.
I have been reading the gospels and the first case I see in the NT of someone being filled is actually a woman--the mother of John the Baptist. But that was before the new birth. Luke 1:41, When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit (NIV).
God is not limited. We cannot put God into a box and seek to expect taht He can only work one way. This was a special occasion.
Then in Luke 4:1 it says, And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness (KJV).
Most of what Jesus did in His ministry was done through the power of the Holy Spirit (IMO).
Did Jesus experience the filling or was He already born filled? Luke 3:21-22 says, When all the people were being baptized, Jesus was baptized too. And as he was praying, heaven was opened 22 and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased” (NIV).
Jesus was the Lamb of God and the Son of Man. His life is an example for us. Was He born filled? The Bible does not tell us either way. It does state “being full of the Holy Ghost returned from the Jordan, and was led by the Holy Spirit into the wilderness.”
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LT,
>If you listen long enough to most people their concern is not about His will and glory, but their will and an easier life.
My first thought was that this is a bit harsh. I can’t speak for others and their motives. I know many of my friends seek to know Him more and I see them growing--even many of the ones who believe it the way Stanley teaches it which is how the denomination I have been a part of the last 20 years teaches it.
>People who have not experienced the filling of the Holy Spirit IMO will only think they are inferior because of pride. How dare someone tell me that I don’t have the fullness of God!!!
That can go both ways--pride can make the one who has received the filling feel superior to those who are still struggling in their faith like they must be doing something wrong. IMO
>There are several books by Tommy Tenney that I encourage people to read in a series starting with “God Chasers.”
I have those books.
>God is not limited. We cannot put God into a box and seek to expect that He can only work one way. This was a special occasion.
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, (2 Timothy 3:16, NIV). She was filled with the Spirit. The example of someone who experienced the filling of the Spirit is there nonetheless--and when it happens isn’t it always a special occasion?
Because we cannot put God in the box, it is not going over the top to say that some people at the time of being born again do experience the filling of the Spirit, too. Both works of grace could happen simultaneously.
Joe mentioned 1 Cor 2:14 but IMO in context of the entire chapter the vers refers to the one who has not been born again at all and remains in the natural state. “But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned” (KJV).
Matthew Henry’s commentary explains 2 Cor 2:14-16 this way:
>The spiritual man only, is the person to whom God gives the knowledge of his will. How little have any known of the mind of God by natural power! And the apostles were enabled by his Spirit to make known his mind. In the Holy Scriptures, the mind of Christ, and the mind of God in Christ, are fully made known to us. It is the great privilege of Christians, that they have the mind of Christ revealed to them by his Spirit. They experience his sanctifying power in their hearts, and bring forth good fruits in their lives.
Only those born again have the mind of Christ, right? If I have this wrong please show me my error and I will change my mind. It seems right to say that those not born again can read the bible and do have it and it shows them the mind of Christ but not in a way that they can understand it, but those born again really have the mind of Christ.
I do know there was a great difference in my understanding when I read Scriptures before I was saved and then afterwards. I am still learning and growing in spiritual knowledge almost everyday.
It may be that the indwelling Spirit will only release His power if a Christian will do such and such or so and so. I don’t know. But grace is supposed to be unmerited. I wouldn't even know how to earn the filling or a re-filling of the Spirit. Die to self more I guess.
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Amanda,
My first thought was that this is a bit harsh. I can’t speak for others and their motives. I know many of my friends seek to know Him more and I see them growing--even many of the ones who believe it the way Stanley teaches it which is how the denomination I have been a part of the last 20 years teaches it.
I cannot help you think this is harsh. After almost 20 years of being a pastor and counseling many, this is the fact in way too many people’s lives. They are more concerned about self and this life than Jesus and glorifying Him. Many say they want to know Him more and live for Him, but the evidence of that want is absent in their lives. They tend to want the candy from God and forget the living for Him part. Many play at Christianity. You can hear them tell you that they love Jesus and want His will and want to live for Him. You give them godly-biblical advice and they just continue on as they did before only to come back and ask the same questions over again to receive the same advice only to not act on the advice. Why? In most cases it is because the advice requires change and action in their life, but that is not what they wanted. They wanted a quick prayer and a quick fix so that they can get on with their life. Reality is harsh sometimes. This is not unique to my situation. Before one accuses me of being bitter that is so far from the truth. I love these people I am referring to and seeking to help them see the truth and walk in it ... over and over again, because only when they understand the need to surrender and align with God will they see their need for His empowerment to accomplish His will, the will that they say they want to live by, but in application prove that is not really true, at least not yet. We could talk strongholds and other things, but the key is surrender followed by empowerment to begin walking out the Chrst-like life, the Deeper-Spirit Life.
That can go both ways--pride can make the one who has received the filling feel superior to those who are still struggling in their faith like they must be doing something wrong. IMO
You only posted part of what I said. The end of the statement addressed that the one who is Spirit-filled and walking in the Spirit will not act out of pride, but in love seek to guide others to a deeper experience with Jesus. If pride arises we can know one of two things. 1) They were never filled to begin with or 2) They have lost their way and are again walking in the flesh and not the Spirit.
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, (2 Timothy 3:16, NIV). She was filled with the Spirit. The example of someone who experienced the filling of the Spirit is there nonetheless--and when it happens isn’t it always a special occasion?
You are playing with words here. You know what I meant by special occasion. There is a typical way that God works as seen in many different doctrines in the Bible. Then there are special times where God is free as a sovereign God to act as He wills. Your example is such a case.
Because we cannot put God in the box, it is not going over the top to say that some people at the time of being born again do experience the filling of the Spirit, too. Both works of grace could happen simultaneously.
Some are filled at the time of salvation immediately after being born again. It is two works of God, not one. They are born again "and" filled with the Holy Spirit. History shows that most people experience the filling much later.
Matthew Henry’s commentary explains 2 Cor 2:14-16 this way:
I am not a Matthew Henry fan and will leave it at that.
Only those born again have the mind of Christ, right? If I have this wrong please show me my error and I will change my mind. It seems right to say that those not born again can read the bible and do have it and it shows them the mind of Christ but not in a way that they can understand it, but those born again really have the mind of Christ.
This is true.
I do know there was a great difference in my understanding when I read Scriptures before I was saved and then afterwards. I am still learning and growing in spiritual knowledge almost everyday.
This is how God works.
It may be that the indwelling Spirit will only release His power if a Christian will do such and such or so and so. I don’t know. But grace is supposed to be unmerited. I wouldn't even know how to earn the filling or a re-filling of the Spirit. Die to self more I guess.
The Holy Spirit tends, not putting God in a box, to release His power when we surrender and seek Him to live through us. We are back to understanding the truly wanting “not my will, but Your will be done” and recognizing that we cannot do it in our own strength. He does not just come alongside to help, He desires to live through us, but we must truly surrender and truly desire to live for Him. This goes back to the first paragraph in my response.
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LT,
>They are more concerned about self and this life than Jesus and glorifying Him. Many say they want to know Him more and live for Him, but the evidence of that want is absent in their lives. They tend to want the candy from God and forget the living for Him part. Many play at Christianity. You can hear them tell you that they love Jesus and want His will and want to live for Him. You give them godly-biblical advice and they just continue on as they did before only to come back and ask the same questions over again to receive the same advice only to not act on the advice. Why? In most cases it is because the advice requires change and action in their life, but that is not what they wanted.
All I have to say is I don't believe in quick fixes and never have. The filling of the Spirit or second work of grace, whatever terminology one wants to use is not a quick fix either. I have never said I have never been filled with the Spirit. What I have said is that there were many things I have accomplished in my own life that I know I could never have done in my own power. I have also said I believe we are to be filled with the Spirit--it is a biblical instruction and there are accounts in the OT and NT which show people filled, being filled, anointed, etc...
I likely do ask the same questions over and over. I am battling a mental illness called depression and have a mild form of autism which has a symptom of obsessing about some things and going on and on about some things. I apologize. I have also admitted that there have been times when my experience with God has been very dry and thirsty. I don't call the filling a second work-I don't use that terminology. I have nothing further to ask.
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