All About GOD - Growing Relationships with Jesus and Others
Do we Possess three entities namely a "Body" "Soul" and "Spirit"?
I need to hear from members on AAG, what they understand by the terms "Body" "Soul" and "Spirit" Let's look forward to a lively discussion as to your impression and beliefs on the subject.
"Do men and women possess three entities, namely a "Body" that possesses a "Soul" and a "Spirit"?
The Lord Bless all on AAG
Ron.
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on
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Tim,
The account of Lazarus shows physically dead people being conscious and communicating. Jesus could have conveyed your message using alive in the flesh people. He did not. He chose people who are dead in the flesh, but conscious.
You ere on the misplacing of the comma as we mentioned before.
Paul and John's words are as plain as they seem and do not agree with your interpretation.
You are right that we have covered this and the evidence stands and it stands against you. If you wish to ignore it or deny it, God gives you that freedom. You are simply wrong in your interpretation and understaing.
LT
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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on
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This is a lot of information, but well worth reading. One can never accuse us of not having a case for our beliefs. Enjoy!!!
Summary #2
We need to understand that there are a number of mysteries in the Bible that were not fully revealed until Christ came. It was concealed in the Old Testament and revealed in the New Testament. What most people do is look to the Old Testament Scriptures to validate this teaching such as Eccl. 9:5-6, "For the living know they shall die: but the dead know not anything," or Psalm 146:4, "His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; in that very day his thoughts perish". Or Psalm 115:17, "The dead do not praise the Lord, nor any who go down into silence" or Psalm 6:5 "For in death there is no remembrance of Thee; in the grave who shall give Thee thanks? And of course, there is Ezek. 18:4, "the soul that sinneth, it shall die. "From these Scriptures and many others, the Seventh Day Adventists and other groups make their air-tight case that death is a peaceful sleep for the soul. Well, actually, it's not so air-tight, it's more like Swiss cheese, hahahha.
This means that it is spiritual death, a separation not a non existence. Otherwise they would cease to exist as soon as they sin. There are many scripture that say the soul is dead even when someone is alive, he is dead even when alive.
When someone does a study on this or any other subject, they need to take all the body of literature and weigh it out and see which covenant these things were spoken under, are they a metaphor, is it a hyperbole, is it poetic? To make biblical sense out of this serious issue, we need to look at all the literature of that particular subject.
Because this is not just a spirit sleeping, waiting for the resurrection that is being promoted. This doctrine actually affects other crucial doctrines, such as eternal punishment and eternal life.
As I read the fundamental doctrines of Seventh Day Adventism, there are a few Scriptures either missing or purposely neglected which actually changes one's view on this particular subject, because they hold vital information on the afterlife. Before I go to that I'm going to walk us through the arguments and some biblical answers.
There is poetry in the Psalms, for instance Psalm 22:26: "The meek shall eat and be satisfied; they shall praise the Lord that seek him; your heart shall live forever." Now, logically, I don't think anyone takes this Scripture in its solid, literal sense or would believe that someone's physical heart is going to live forever while our body and our soul die. Our heart is not going to be outside our body living forever. The word heart obviously means something other than how we interpret it today. the intent of this word means something other than the physical organ. Proverbs 23:7 tells us as a man thinks in his heart, so is he, or Matt.13:5, lest they should understand with their heart. Obviously there's an intent of this Scripture that means not just the physical organ.
Actually the word heart represents the inward man, his soul, his spirit, and is usually interchangeable throughout the Scriptures. Just as soul can be substituted for one's life, their heart, mind and body, so can the word heart. They are interchangeable throughout the Scriptures.
The main argument for those who promote soul-sleep are these: the word sleeping is for those who die, that it is unconsciousness (1 Thess.4:13-14, 1 Cor. 15:20,51). Some go so far to say that one's eternal destiny is determined, not at death, but later at the final judgment. And some will even claim that we can still repent, even in the afterlife. We don't find this is the Seventh Day Adventism but there are other groups that believe this kind of teaching.
So, let's look at the word sleep, because that's what's crucial here. What does sleep mean? The Bible uses this term when speaking of death in that the physical body, a dead body, looks very similar in this state. It's always referring to the physical body, not the soul. It is the appearance of the body that is sleeping, no one is able to see the spirit . It is also a term used exclusively for believers. The term sleeping, in reference to death, is not used for unbelievers. I find that to be crucial in understanding what the Bible is trying to portray to us when it says that the dead in Christ are sleeping.
Believers and unbelievers do not experience the same afterlife.
Why would God allow a believers spirit to go to the same place as a non believer ? He didn’t do this before the resurrection of Christ (Lk. 16 they were separated after death), Ohhh and this is not a parable. Jesus never used names of real people when teaching parables. Now we are told paradise is in heaven and we are to be with the Lord. so it is illogical, not to mention unbiblical to think that we are to all sleep in the grave until a resurrection- what sleeps is the body, what stays alive is mans spirit which was created in God’s likeness and contains the qualities that God gave man to be similar to himself.
Sleeping in the New Testament is used for one who is in Christ, it is God' s viewpoint of a temporary suspension of physical activity, yet, there is a continuation of the mind and the soul, the personality. The Spirit is just as alive outside the body as it is inside the body.
Dan 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, some to shame and everlasting contempt.
The word for sleep here is not the same as one sleeping in everyday use. yashen ( from 3462; sleepy: KJV-- asleep, (one out of) sleep slept.
In Jer 31:26 After this I awoke and looked around, and my sleep was sweet to me. Also in Dn.2:1 shenah corresponding to 8142: One is hard pressed to make a case for souls sleep even from the old Testament, certainly it cannot be done from the New testament that reveals much more on mans state after he dies.
Does the believer wake up in the resurrection? Is he put back in an immortal physical body? Yes, he is, yet, we never see an example of a spirit resurrected because it does not die like the body. The term resurrection only applies to the body.
The Bible is very clear that the spirit can live outside the body. Angels can and do function outside a body and yet, they can also function within a body. We see they can possess people and actually there can be more than one spirit or fallen angels inside a body. Although this alone does not make a strong case for a continuation of an afterlife, it does show that a spirit can operate and function outside the body.
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Cont. of Summary #2
There are numerous passages that teach that humans are conscious after their death, so let's look at a few. Matt. 17:1-8 and Luke 9:28-36 are just a few of the passages on the transfiguration where we find Moses and Elijah appearing on the Mount with Jesus and a few of His disciples. Elijah was taken to heaven alive while Moses died a physical death, yet, Moses is consciously alive just like Elijah. Moses couldn't have been resurrected because Christ is to be the firstfruits of the resurrection and he had risen yet. While Christ raised may from the dead they were people that recently died not old Testament saints dead for hundred of years. There were others raised to life on earth on earth by Jesus only to die again later. But, here is someone who is dead for 1,500 years, so it isn't Moses' decomposed body brought back out of the ground as a resurrection, this was a spiritual appearance.
Jesus taught that he is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of the living, not of the dead, referring to Exodus 3:5, I am who I am, insinuating that all these prophets were still living. This silenced the Sadducee’s who challenged Him on this matter because they did not believe in an afterlife. So we have Moses here, appearing in spirit. That is the only plausible explanation because, again, Jesus had to be the first body resurrected unto eternal in life in that way.
Paul himself relates a story in the New Testament In 2 Cor. 12:1-4 in which, fourteen years before, he was caught up to the third heaven. This is the place where God dwells. He calls this place Paradise and he was awed by the experience and the things that he heard but, he wasn't sure if this occurred in his body or without his body, so he wasn't sure if he was alive or dead when this event occurred. Now obviously, his corruptible body could not enter heaven since all must go through transformation to be able to function there. Mortal flesh is unable to enter heaven, as Jesus said, flesh and blood cannot enter, so there has to be some kind of transformation to enter in there.
What happens to believers, according to the Bible, at death? This is the question we're pondering about as far as soul-sleep. Do we just rest in the ground just like our body? What exactly happens to our body, what exactly happens to our soul? The Bible speaks about a material and immaterial part of man. We find in Gen. 3:19 our bodies are made of the earth and they return to the earth. In Phil. 1:23-24, Paul states that he desired to depart to be with Christ, which is far better. Now, Christ is in heaven, He's not in the ground, so if this was soul-sleep, he being with Christ, Christ would have to be in the ground. Paul goes on to say, nevertheless, to be in the flesh is more needful for you. so he wanted to stay to help out the saints in the church and fulfill his ministry.
We also find in 2 Peter 1:13, Peter talks about putting off his tabernacle, or tent, calling it a temporary dwelling place. James 2:26 tells us the body without the spirit is dead. He doesn't say the spirit also dies, he says the body without the spirit dies. In Gen. 35:18, speaking of Rachel, it tells us, her soul was departing and she died. The spirit exists afterwards and gives us life, when he leaves the body it dies. The body dies and goes back into the ground, yet the spirit continues on with a life of its own.
Eccl. 12: 6-7 describes in poetry the shattering of life, that the dust returns to earth, and the spirit returns to God who gave it. Yet, earlier, in verse 5, he writes a man goes to his eternal home and mourners go about the streets. So Solomon is speaking about those who turn to God as he started off this chapter, stating remember your Creator in the days of your youth, before difficult days come. And then he speaks about our eternal home. If it is sleep in the grave, as people are claiming, then that means we are going to stay in the grave, the ground, forever, if our soul actually sleeps. They are using this scripture in a way that it's an eternal home in the ground and we are never to be raised up. Of course, that is not what it means.
One of the scriptures they use is Eccl. 9:5, the dead know nothing. Now this is true, since it is the body that dies, that part of the man which dies and goes into the ground, knows nothing. But there is a part of man that flies away at death and returns to God who gave it, Psalm 90. So, Those who believe, go to rest in Christ. It couldn't mean only our breath since that would not go to God but to the atmosphere.
Many of the Old Testament Scriptures, rather that showing a state of unconsciousness of the soul, are really languages of appearance, that after death they had the inability to continue the process that was normal while they were here on earth in their bodies. So it is a language of appearance as man's perspective is looking at the body functions. Yet, in Heb. 9:27 we find after death, the judgment, in other words one goes either to heaven or to hell, and it is determined at death, not afterwards. So we go to rewards, to rest, or to punishment and eternal separation. Death is not a cessation of existence, but a separation of existence. We have choices to make now that will effect our eternal destiny. Jesus knew very well of this and he warned of it constantly.
Now, what of the Scripture in 1 Tim. 6:16 speaking of God, who alone has immortality? The Scripture applies mortal and immortality to one's bodily condition. It is the body that is mortal, never the soul, or spirit. For example, Paul writes in 1 Cor. 15: this mortal will put on immortality, speaking of the resurrection of our bodies, not our spirtit. Likewise, in 1 Tim. 6:16, he's speaking of Jesus as the immortal God/man. Spirit, by its own nature, is a deathless entity. God is spirit, and so are angels. God is spirit and fashioned man in the image of Himself, and, while God has always existed, no beginning or end, he has given mankind a limited similarity, like Himself, something that lives on. The body is described as mortal the soul is never described in these terms. Paul states this mortal must put on immortality (1 Cor.15:53). He is speaking of a resurrected body just as it was said in 2 Pt.1:13 to put off this tent as a temporary dwelling. In. Rom. 6:9: "Knowing that Christ having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over him." Therefore 1 Tim.6:16 means he alone has immortality as his nature and being the first fruit raised in the resurrection.
In our human experience our spirit never feels old, no matter how old the body gets our spirit inside does not feel the same age. If one becomes an invalid it doesn’t affect their spirit, their spirit does not also become an invalid , it essentially is unaffected by the outer person it still is free. Science tells us our body renews all its cells every 7 years. If we were only our body we would have to relearn everything again because all of our knowledge is contained in the physical aspect of man. But this again is not so, even the bible shows people who died in heaven remembering and recognizing others.
The New Testament teaches Spirit existence after death as doctrine. James says the body without the spirit is dead not the spirit itself. For example, in Rev. 6:9-10, we see souls who have been slain, under the alter of God, asking the Lord to avenge them. We find they are conscious and they are speaking. The soul and personality of each one of us lives on. Jesus taught in Matt. 10:28, Fear not those who kill the body but are not able to kill the soul, but rather fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. The Greek word for destruction, aplollumi, has numerous meanings. We have to look at the context it's put in. It can mean perish, lost, destroy, to render useless, or to give over to eternal misery, and I believe that is the correct rendition when we look at where he's saying the soul will be in the afterlife of those who disobey the Gospel.
In Matt. 25:46 there are those in the judgment who go into everlasting punishment and those who go into everlasting life. The same Greek word means eternal and forever. If there is no eternal punishment, then the same word that is applied for eternal life means there is no eternal life, ever. So the Greek, appropriated to both these places that destined for those who either believe or not believe, means eternal. Likewise in Luke 16, the story of the rich man and Lazarus. Jesus always used real-life situations to illustrate His teachings. In this story He actually names the person. Jesus does not teach fictitious stories and it's not a parable, in my opinion, because He actually names a person, which He did not do in parables.
These are living conditions in the afterlife of torment and peace. The New Covenant has revealed what was unclear in the Old Testament writings. 2 Cor. 4:16,18 tells us "though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day. . . .While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal." Now here, Paul applies the outer man to the temporal and the tabernacle we live in, and the inner man to the eternal. In the following verse he states, "For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens" Here is the scripture that is often neglected and, put in context, we find it fully elaborating on the continual existence of man, 2 Cor. 5:1-8. He sums it all up in verse 8 saying, we are always confident knowing that while we are home in the body we are absent from the Lord. and he goes on to say to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. When all our earthly tent is dissolved, we can be assured that we will be in the presence of the One we serve and we love here on earth We will be further clothed. This is the Scripture that is consistently neglected by those who promote soul-sleep. As in Phil.1:23 Paul states to be with Christ is far better. This would be impossible if we go to sleep in the ground with the body.
Likewise, in 1 Thess. 4:13-17, we are told that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him. Then he states, those who are alive will not precede those who have fallen asleep. The Lord from heaven will come down with a trumpet call and the dead in Christ will rise first. And then those who are alive will be caught up together with them in the air with the Lord forever.
Since the resurrection did not occur before this event, who is Jesus bringing with him from heaven? They don't have bodies, the resurrection hasn't occurred, so they are immaterial souls that will be united with their bodies at this resurrection event. They existed fellowshipping with the Lord in heaven. Jude says the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints. Paul describes this event in 1 Cor. 15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall be changed. When? At the last trump. The dead are raised incorruptible, and then he goes on to describe that mortal will put on immortality. So he's talking about our bodies. Then death, he states, is swallowed up in victory; our souls are not dead because we were made alive in Christ.
Rom. 8:11 says, But if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who dwells in you.
There is a day of uniting with those who fell asleep in Christ, with their bodies to be transformed and live forever, and the hope of the believer is that, whether we live or die, we are to be with the Lord. It is stated in the Scriptures, I am persuaded that neither death, nor life, nor angels nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, death, nor any other created thing shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is Christ Jesus our Lord.
If you're in Christ be persuaded, be encouraged, we have assurance. Yet, there are many other people all around us who don't have this assurance and I hope that we will be the ones to bring the good news to them. We should not sorrow as the world does (1 Thess.4:16-18)
The second summary is from:http://www.letusreason.org/Doct15.htm
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Permalink Reply by Ginnybee on
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Soul is our unique character, including our personal likes and dislikes. Spirit.. there are two needing to be acknowledged, in my opinion. Our individual spirit, unique to us, and the Holy Spirit, unique to God.
When we are spiritually dead, the Holy Spirit (God's thoughts, ideas, and insight) is not in us and thus cannot help direct our decisions. Spiritually dead people depend on their own personal spirit and the enemy's as their only motivations. As God removed His spirit from us when man sinned, the evil one moved closer to us, wanting to replace the removed authority of God in our lives. Therefore, satan happens to begin influencing our individual thoughts and perceptions as if he exemplifies man's new god.
To be born again is to regain God's spiritual influence. Spirit represents purpose driven ideas, or a group of associated ideas. Our individual spirits exemplify self interests, whereas the Holy Spirit identifies God's interests. A believer learns and grows by the influence of the Holy Spirit. Those particular aspects we've attained through the influence of the Holy Spirit are the ones that remain with us when we die and enter into God's presence. That's why the bible says that nothing that has not come down from heaven will go up into heaven. Only that which we have attained through the spirit of God will live on to produce further significant agendas.
Sorry no direct quotes... just my thoughts on the subject
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Permalink Reply by Rita Cullimore on
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Hi Tim,
I want to point something out in what you said regarding the story Jesus told of Lazarus and the rich man.
First of all, if it is a parable it would be the only one where Jesus put a name to the person He was speaking about.
Second, by your very doubts you are calling Jesus a liar. That isn't something I appreciate and I doubt an other in here would appreciate it either.
Third, ANYTHING is possible with God.
I sincerely hope you rethink your position.
Regarding Abraham...
he may be asleep to all of us, but I doubt he is to God.
None of us have the attributes or the abilities of God. God does as He chooses. If Jesus, being God, said this story happened, I suspect that it happened just as He stated.
So, anything you think regarding this story is not true because your are speaking as though the story is flawed.
I would suggest that you study the Bible as though it IS God's Word, instead a book of made up stories, and by doing this, you would find the truth about many things.
Rita
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Tim,
I enjoy our inter actions, thank you for the challenging posts. It is a great thing when we can DISCUSS issues without attacking the persons involved in the exchange. Of course we would have to define attacking hahahaha The wacky over sensitive world we live in has us tip toeing. Which is not a bad thing, to be prudent and wise in communication is a good thing.
I seriously don't think you or Sam have presented a real case. When the most brilliant minds this world has been blessed with in Christianity: St. Augustine, Thomas Aquinas, Calvin, Jonathan Edwards etc; the most prominent contemporary scholars all greed that there is life after physical death, I am persuaded by the abundance of evidence to pay attention to their arguments. Not that that is all that needs t o aligned for me to take doctrinal views, not at all. Scriptures alone are the final authority.
When someone with your persuasion says that Luke 16 is just a parable because Jesus taught with parables and does not give the meaning of the suppose parable then I understand that the person is set on that belief and there is not much more one can do, but pray for that person to be enlighten. As far as using articles bro, I always do. I have an extensive collection of them. We are blessed to have such an abundance of well researched documents, so why not use them. That article pretty much devastates your belief about soul sleep. You have not responded to it, because I do not think you can, how can one fight the abundance of truth? I truly am always open to learn and if you would have presented a strong case as the article I presented to support the sleep or death of the soul, I would have no problem changing my views.
I came to this website being a pre-tribulation believer, then through the course of a discussion LT presented the Pre-wrath preposition and it was more aligned with scripture I saw and jumped on the pre-wrath wagon. I have no problem changing views. If I am wrong then those that bless me with the truth are dear to my heart for they have been used by God to enlighten me. Unfortunately we live in a Christian world where to do that would mean giving up fellowship in a place of worship or not being so popular in it. So be it. I choose Jesus and so should you beloved. We have shown with an abundance of scripture and articles that what you have believed is not biblically supported.
1. Again Tim what does the supposed parable mean then? Why would Jesus be creating confusion by bringing such concepts up? What was Jesus teaching with it? You ignore the evidence, just because He used a common name. Tim, let us look at it as a parable then. Jewish tradition acknowledged all the elements used in Christ's supposed parable. The poor man was carried by the angels to the Bosom of Abraham ( Luke 16:22 and Ketubot 104a).
2. LK 23:43. Luke 23:43 means that God has a place where He keeps the spirits of the forgiven dead until Jesus returns and clothes them in new bodies; that Jesus secures life after death for all believers. He called that place Paradise - a Persian word meaning garden.
The first point to note is that Jesus was communicating with the thief verbally. In any language, people converse without commas, semicolons, question marks or exclamation marks. In fact, writers employ such devices only because they believe that the spoken message is clearer and want to approximate it. It is not true; therefore, that what Jesus said was ambiguous. The introduction of the commas into the manuscripts (centuries later) is irrelevant. Can you see Jesus telling the thief, I tell you today, why would he assure him of the day he is taking? Is it opposed to: I tell you tomorrow or yesterday? That is not how people speak nor was it how the translators translate the same occurrence elsewhere.
Tim you say that it is the position of the written comma that reveals what Christ really said. This is precisely what is not true of the passage in question. The author of the Gospel was not present at the crucifixion to hear Christ's comment personally. Christ's comment was recorded from the oral tradition of the disciples. This leads us to the second point: that the oral tradition had preserved this comment in a particular form, with the spoken emphasis already built into it. Commas have no syntactical value in New Testament Greek. If commas are later introduced by an editor, they would serve only to make the text easier to read —- not to clarify the meaning. Commas, in any edition of the Greek New Testament, are intended only as a help to the reader, not as a means of safeguarding the correct understanding of a passage.
The reading "Verily I say unto you today" not only contains a redundancy ("I say" is in the present tense already —- making "today" redundant), it destroys the natural force of these words. When you say that the comma was placed on the wrong place of the verse where Jesus tells the thief he will be with Him in paradise, you then agree with Jehovah Witnesses scholarly, which is by no stretch of the imagination scholarly, but an embarrassment. Most scholars disagree with that, historically and presently. The KJV, NIV and NASB all disagree with your interpretation of how the verse reads.
How about passages that indicate that Jesus "preached to the spirits in prison" (1 Peter 3:19; 4:6) after his crucifixion and before his resurrection? No matter how you understand these verses, they don't prevent Jesus in the Spirit from ushering the thief into heaven.
How about the Apostles' Creed which states, "He descended into hell" based on Acts 2:31; Matthew 12:40; and Romans 10:7? Philip Schaff observes that the phrase "descended into hell" is a later addition, and that the translation "hell" is "unfortunate and misleading." The original Greek term Hades (Latin infernus) is much more comprehensive than "hell" (Greek gehenna), and refers to the place of the dead.There is no conflict with the Apostles' Creed and our belief that the thief was with Jesus in paradise immediately upon death.
You are a very smart man bro. I pray you reconsider.
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To be totally honest with you Tim, I don't get what you are trying to get across by using this verse, so I left it alone, but since you insist, here is Johnny.
In Genesis 2:7 we read,
"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."
From this we learn that man's basic element is dust and this is what compromises his body. This body is lifeless without the "breath of life" which is given from God. It is this which animates the body and makes it into a "living soul". Genesis puts forth the simple equation:
Dust + Breath of Life = A Living Soul
Dust
That man is dust and that he returns to dust at his death is obvious from what God tells Adam later on in Genesis 3:19, "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return."There have been many men in the Bible who have recognized this fact such as Abraham in Genesis 18:27, "And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes:" and Job in Job 10:9, "Remember, I beseech thee, that thou hast made me as the clay; and wilt thou bring me into dust again?"
It is important to keep in mind that our bodies are made of dust and that they return to dust when we die. God is the only source we can look to for life and immortality (1 Timothy 6:16).
Breath of Life
The Hebrew words for breath of life are "neshema chay" which is also termed the spirit or "ruach" of God (see Genesis 7:15,22). The breath or spirit of life is what gives life and therefore we find that when the scriptures speak of death it is when the breath or spirit of God is taken away.
Job 34:14-15 "If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit (RUACH) and his breath (NESHEMA); All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust."
Psalms 104:29 "Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath (RUACH), they die, and return to their dust."
Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit (RUACH) shall return unto God who gave it."
Living Soul
The Hebrew word for living soul is "nephesh chay." The flesh is only flesh. but when God withdraws his breath it return to Him while the body to the dust. Man is the only one to have been made in the "image and likeness" of the Elohim (Gen. 1:27). This gives him the ability to be a partaker in the promises of God and to attain unto eternal life which is the gift of God.
NEPHESH - A body made of dust that is animated by the breath or spirit of God. This breath makes it alive and thus it is "nephesh chay" or a living soul. Without this breath the body is dead (Ezekiel 18:4) and the body returns back to dust.
But the spirit back to God.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit (RUACH) shall return unto God who gave it."
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Tim,
Along with what David has said:
Genesis 2:7 does not reveal all the truth regarding what is now known about the soul and flesh. First usage lays ground work, but is not full knowledge. Earlier you emphasized the single word “being” as if it locks down the whole of Scripture to revolve around this one word.
The word “became” is translated as follows in the O.T (They are listed in order of occurrences.:
be
was
came
become
were
is
been
are
became
had
have
come
happened
will
AM
had
happen
have
remain
lived
belong to
has
hold
becomes
fall
comes
lived
remained
set
go
bring
continue
done
fell
has
lie
made
serve
went
belonged to
bring
consider
ended
fallen
has
left
marry
stay
stayed
belongs to
endure
included
Keep
last
Leave
numbered
One day
rest
spread
took place
touch
appears
coming
end
ending
extend
given
keep
kept
lay
make
married
may
put
stand
taken
use
used
wear
agree
allotted
applies
arose
bind
brought
Come what may
connecting
did
do
extended
follow
fulfilled
get
help
lies
living
lying
occur
overwhelmed
owned
preceded
reached
receive
regard as
rule
serve as
served
settled
sold for
spent
struck
take place
turn to
turned into
Use
wear
abound
acquired
Act
allotted
amount to
amounted to
appear
appear
appeared
apply
aroused
arranged
attach
be
be
be treated as
become
becoming
began
beginning
being
belong
belong to
belonged to
belonging to
belongs
bring about
brings
broke out
brought about
brought with
came
came into being
came on
came to
came to be
carried by
caught
cause
certainly come true
come into being
comes of
committed
company
compare with
complete
condemn
conferred
consist of
continued
controlled
could not
count
covered
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you
Which word do you want to use to build a sound doctrine regarding “hâyâh?”
How is the word defined that is translated in Gen. 2:7?
hâyâh
haw-yaw'
A primitive root (compare H1933); to exist, that is, be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary): - beacon, altogether, be (-come, accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), continue, do, faint, fall, + follow, happen, have, last, pertain, quit (one-) self, require, use.
How is H1933 defined?
hâvâ' hâvâh
haw-vaw', haw-vaw'
A primitive root (compare H183, H1961) supposed to mean properly to breathe; to be (in the sense of existence): - be, have.
Wow … when God had finished making the flesh He breathed the breath of life into Adam and he had existence. He was not and now is alive. No mystery here. God created Adam.
Now Gen. 2:7 has established in the order of first usage that Adam has a flesh and has the breathe of life in Him that brought life to his being, flesh and soul. What does Scripture reveal later that is in harmony with that basic truth? ECC 12:7 and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
Before Jesus’ resurrection? Richman and Lazarus. After Jesus’ resurrection and before the resurrection of Revelation 20 we have Revelation 6:9.
LT
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Tim
As I said before I do not get what you are trying to convey with the verse. I said I do not get what you are trying to say. So I am asking again. What about the fact that Adam became a living soul? How does that change anything? We all agree that he became a living soul. He would not become a dead soul once God infused Him with life. He was dust, in adamant, then received the breath of life and became a living soul, yes and....?
When he dies, his body becomes a dead body and he can be considered a dead soul to the world, but since we have other verses that teach us of the soul's continuity, we understand that the soul/spirit goes on. Again so what is your point?
How does this verse break our agruments? I do not get it. Please explain:
Thank you, the Lord bless you..?
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How about if i say Tim ok the soul dies and the Spirit goes on? Would you come back to tell me that soul and spirit are the same words everywhere in the bible? Or that soul and spirit are one?
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Permalink Reply by Carla on
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Dear Tim,
sharing a quote from Dr Arnold G. Fruchtenbaum..'Footsteps of the Messiah'
"Concerning Ezekiel 18:4 and 20 which speaks about the soul as dying, the word "death" never means annihilation, as is obvious from Eph 2:1-3 and 9. Death is simply a 'separation'. In this case, the deal soul is separated from God. A soul that is dead is a soul that has no spiritual life; the unbeliever has a spiritually dead soul, but it is not non-existent. The soul that separates from the body in an unbelieving state eventually goes into a second death, but second death is not annihilation; it simply means eternal separation from God."
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Tim,
The body lived because it was given a soul. The body without the soul is dead. Makes perfect sense.
The long list was silly on purpose. You want to live and die on the meaning of one word that carries various meanings and changes nothing regarding the new life that Adam now possessed through God..
If Ishmael lost both arms he would no loger be an archer, but he would still be Ishmael. If the body loses the soul it ceases to be alive, or in this case dead, yet the person of Adam continues on in the essence of life that God gave him. He became alive because he was not alive before.
Tim, there is nothing more to say. You reject the evidence and prefer to read it the way you choose. God gives you that freedom, but that freedom does not make you right.
Unless something new is presented, or you go back and respond to several questiosn asked of you that you ignored we are finished.
LT
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