All About GOD - Growing Relationships with Jesus and Others
B.C. Salvation
During my reading this morning, a verse grabbed my attention:
John 5:28-29
Don’t be so surprised! Indeed, the time is coming when all the dead in their graves will hear the voice of God’s Son, and they will rise again. Those who have done good will rise to experience eternal life, and those who have continued in evil will rise to experience judgment.
Seems to me that they died and stayed dead until Jesus returns and then they too are saved based on their deeds. It speaks of those who "continue" in sin. So is getting caught up in it for a season the same as continuing in it?
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Permalink Reply by Tammy on
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Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. NKJV
To me, it shows Jesus sharing the gospel in its simplest form. Faith in Him brings assurance of eternal life: The fear of man brings a snare, But whoever trusts in the Lord shall be safe 5:24.
The Son that will call the dead from their graves. There are 2 types of resurrection: The good, which can only be that way through Christ, & the evil. Those who love darkness receive their condemnation. Those who believe on Christ enter into eternal life. At the end of the age, the voice of the Son will usher in the resurrection. All the dead will rise. Judgment, as always in Scripture, is on the basis of works. It is “those who have done good” who will “rise to live” or "rise to the resurrection of life". While “those who have done evil” rise only “to be condemned”. This does not mean that salvation is on the basis of good works, because the Word makes it plain over and over again that people enter eternal life when they believe in Jesus Christ. But the lives they live form the test of the faith they profess. That's how I see it.
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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on
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Luk 16:19-31 NIV84 "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. (20) At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores (21) and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. (22) "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. (23) In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. (24) So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.' (25) "But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. (26) And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.' (27) "He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, (28) for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.' (29) "Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.' (30) "'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.' (31) "He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.'"
Note: This is before the resurrection. Though some read it as a parable it does not fit the norm for parables and appears to be an account (which is how I read it), but even if a parable we still see the principle of consciousness in those who have physically died.
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Permalink Reply by Seek on
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My Pastor has been teaching on Luke the last few Sundays. He said it's a parable because Jesus was speaking in parables leading into it. But I find it funny that certain people can deny the existence of hell while claiming to be saved and not question this entire chapter. I even know one who wrote an entire paper trying to convince them self that hell is a lie.
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Permalink Reply by ScribeD on
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To me it is fascinating that pastors will call it a parable. It stands alone from the parables in that the persons are named. It is also fascinating that just days before telling this story, a fellow named Lazarus had died and then been raised from the dead by Jesus.
One thing that helps understand the story is that the only guys (among the Jews) who were rich in those times were Tax Collectors and Pharisees/Scribes/Sadduccees. They were all bleeding the people. Some for Rome, the others for their own pocketbook. So, when Jesus is telling about a "rich man" who went to hell, the Pharisees may have assumed it was a tax collector. Yet, when he begins to debate with Abraham about Lazarus being resurrected, you realize he must have been a Pharisee (they staunchly believed in the coming Resurrection). Interestingly enough, it is the Pharisees who become very concerned about Lazarus rising from the dead, at the hands of Jesus.
To me, this is Jesus pulling back the veil for the Pharisees and showing them their pending doom, if they do not repent.
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Never heard it explained like that but very interesting. You guys amaze me sometimes. Doesn't make what you say always fact as you're digging like the rest of us but you & LT as well as others always opens new windows for me. Thanks.
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You're welcome. I've spent 29 years digging. It has been my life's passion to learn and understand scripture since I was first saved. God called me out of deep darkness and has kept me hungry for light and truth ever since. I've been very fortunate to be under the teaching of some incredibly good teachers. And I've worn out many Bibles keeping detailed notes.
When I was first saved, I had no church or pastor. Satan sent many cults to me, trying to lead me astray. But the Spirit led me to The Word, over and over, to find out if what they taught was true. I found God's word to be true and the cults to be liars. So, it instilled in me a hunger to understand the details. Many get caught up in a single verse, but miss it's true meaning because they fail to see the full teaching that it is part of. They miss the forest for a tree, so to speak.
God has taught me that the fullness of understanding the Word comes from understanding the context. In knowing that, we can better grasp the meaning.
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It wasn't until I went to rehab that I began to dig myself. I had an incredible Bible teacher in there. I've had some awesome pastors but I can understand you having better teachers as I wasn't necessarily seeking to teach it or preach it as much as just to understand it. It's always refreshing hearing something new. Thanks again.
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I so totally agree that this isn't a parable. First time I had ever heard that was about 4 years ago. I said the same that no one is ever given a name in a parable as well as other signs that it was fact & not a parable.
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"So is getting caught up in it for a season the same as continuing in it?"
That can only be determined in the end, wouldn't you say? The question is: "what is your priority"? Now, I have a friend who spends a huge amount of time working with alcoholics, helping them get sober. He has been sober for 38 years or so. Yet, he still says he's an alcoholic. His point is that he has the propensity for being a drunk, he has just denied himself that behavior, successfully, for 38 years. He has many who will get sober for a period and then fall back into being drunk again after a couple of years. How do you gauge that? Are they a drunk who just got sober for a while? Or a sober person who fell into drunkeness again? That answer can only be determined over the span of a person's life. Do they truly repent of that sin? My friend has repented, but keeps in mind that he could, at any time, fall back into that sin if he were to become lazy about his determination to remain sober.
"...whether or not he'd have been saved during that time."
I don't see anywhere that the OT uses that language about the saints of that era. I think we have to learn to use God's language for understanding God's worldview. God calls David "...a man after my own heart". Which he explains to us means that David "...will accomplish all that I want him to..." and he had "...a heart like mine". Psalm 89: 26 it says that David was a type of the Messiah in that "...will call out to me, ‘You are my Father, my God, the Rock my Savior.’
David fell short and sinned. But, he had God's Kingdom in mind throughout his entire life as we know it. He failed to live righteously at times, yet he never stopped looking to God as his Father, his Rock and his Savior. God held David accountable for his sins and also did not let him fail to reap consequences for those sins. Yet, David was faithful to God as his one and only God and savior for all of his life. Never once did David put faith or affections in any other god or plan. He knew that Yahweh was his Lord. He lived for Yahweh God.
Yet, nowhere are we given the idea that David was "Saved". That language did not exist in the OT; every time it is used in the OT, it indicates a temporal salvation - as in saved from famine or saved from war or national extinction. Only after the cross, only after the resurrection do we encounter this concept being plainly given as an eternal personal redemption. Jesus hints at it in John 3:16.
It is in Luke's account of Lazarus and Dives that Jesus peels back the curtain for us and shows us what the after-life was like for the OT saints. Here we have just a glimpse of something that was never known or understood prior. The question is: what made one person suitable for "Abraham's bossom" in Paradise and what sent the other characters such as Dives the Rich man to torments on the other side of the great chasm?
Theologians tell us that it was the notion of "Looking forward to Messiah", those who were obedient to God's prescription, who obeyed God's way by faith, that put them in the right relationship. After Christ, we now know that God's way of sacrifices and offerings was a means to look forward to Christ who has become "The Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world". So, we now look to Jesus himself as the "author and finisher of our faith". We don't have to look ahead. We see him in the now, as our Immanuel - God with us. We now have a present relationship by faith. A hope that is firm and established, rather than one that is future and promised.
So, what about David? It seems to me that the evidence for David's faith and love of God is that when he had sinned, when he was found out, he repented. He turned to God in humility and accepted his consequences with faith and trust in God's hand of merciful justice. He did not try to justify himself. He prayed his heart out in humility and turned from his wickedness. The legacy of David is one of overcoming his own sin, by trusting in the mercies of God and presenting himself to God by faith.
So, that is what we must all do presently.
It's interesting, because we can see how God has kept his promises to David very clearly now. But at the end of his days, David only had God's promise. We have greater and more precious promises from the same God who keeps his promises.
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When I say saved I'm referring to being saved from hell which is what John 5:28-29 is saying.
From the way I understand Pauls writings on his own inner struggle if your friend, like Paul had God's desire in his heart yet in moments of weakness succumbed to the flesh like Peter also did in denying Christ out of his human fear, yet they were remorseful and repentant and realized they'd sinned, that they're not relegated to an eternity of hell because of a weakness God knew they had...which is why He sent His son to endure the cross. Because we were incapable of overcoming sin.
That's not to say we go out and sin all the more...as Paul said...certainly not! It just means we're weak and may fail many times but we still serve the one true God. And like David and other OT saints...God referred to them as righteous because of their belief in His Word about Christ's coming and their worship of God. Their faith apparently was their salvation according to this scripture.
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Permalink Reply by Richard L. Broch, Sr. on
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Hi Group,
Interesting discussion, Seek.
Include me in the side that does not believe Luke 16:19-31 is a parable. I firmly feel Jesus was showing what happens to people after they pass from this earthly life.
Now, another window for Tammy..........Has anyone ever wondered about 2 mysterious verses concerning Jesus yielding up His spirit on the cross, and then His resurrection on Sunday morning - Matthew 27:52-53, " and the tombs were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; (53) and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many." (N.A.S.B.).
Could these 2 verses be related to John 5:28-29 (above) ?
In real estate it's "Location, Location, Location."
And Char, you're right, in our Christian Walk after repentance, it's "Faith, Faith, Faith".
Grace and Peace to one and all.
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