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I've been so busy I haven't kept up here, but I wanted to pose a question that I will also pose in the forums.

I wanted to check out the beliefs of a local church that is closer to home where a family member attends.

Everything seemed to be good until I read their stand on gifts.

We believe that God is sovereign in the bestowing of his gifts, and that these gifts are intended to edify the Church. We believe that the gifts of healing, tongues, interpretation of tongues, performance of miracles, and other gifts associated with the charismatic movement were temporary, sign gifts that are no longer needed after the completion of the New Testament and therefor are not practiced in the Church today. We do believe that the sick may call on the elders of the Church to administer anointing oil and to pray for them. God is the great and divine healer and does hear and answer prayers of faith in accordance with His will for the sick and afflicted.

Where does scripture tell us the gifts were only temporary? How can one say the believe God bestows gifts but then say....except these?

A lot of churches hold this belief, but I've always heard the reasoning as being they "believe" (they believe they were only for the 12 or only for a time...though Paul spoke in tongues but wasn't one of the 12). What I haven't seen is any of them say...this is what scripture says.

So if we say the Bible is truth and the Bible says God gives the gifts of prophesy, tongues, healing, etc., aren't we saying God's Word isn't true?

Isn't it more plausible to believe that people's trust and belief in miracles has grown dim rather than God only giving temporary gifts while saying they follow everyone who believes rather than just the New Testament saints?

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I covered signs, wonders and gifts at the start when you asked.  I said:

All the gifts.

1 Corinthians 12:8 To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.

Paul has put tongues, interpretation, faith, prophecy, knowledge, wisdom all in with healing and miraculous powers.

"The prayers of a righteous man availeth much." James 5:16

Jesus also told the disciples "this kind only comes out through prayer and fasting".  Jesus prayed and fasted more than anyone. How many of us today pray and fast as much?  Could this be why we don't see so many miracles?

I don't see tongues as having been reignited. It's been there, but was it used, desired?  Some could say the upper room was also a movement. No one had heard of tongues before then. Afterwards, Paul said he spoke in tongues more than any of them. So apparently tongues had become something the church was experiencing. 

We should always test the spirits. I've seen prophecies that came true and I heard something from God myself early on, but like Gideon, I questioned if it was God, so God showed me without a doubt He had spoken and was able to do exactly what He said. I've also seen tongues used as in Biblical times with the church as a whole suddenly going silent and someone starts speaking in tongues and it's not the usual repetitive utterance.  Then there's a momentary pause and someone interprets and the interpretation is relevant to something you could expect from God. I see others though who speak the same things over and over without interpretation and that doesn't line up with scripture. 

I think I misunderstood what you said about silence on the signs/wonders gifts.  Did you mean you see silence in them not taking place in this age?

While I believe that some tongue speaking doesn't come from God, I believe the gift of tongues continues, and I don't believe the source of the sort that's not from God is always Satan. Sure, it's possible and probable that some tongue-speaking may originate from Satan, as well as from people themselves who are over zealous and filled with exuberance. They believe it's really from God and is genuine when it's really from the flesh.

However, the false presentations of the gift doesn't cancel out or negate the existence of the true gift of tongues, and I would say no one is able to show from Scripture or prove from any other source that these gifts have ceased, no more than anyone is able to say there is no God, especially since all the gifts were given in the early days of the church and were given to more than just the apostles and were given for more reasons than just to confirm the Word of God or to help establish the church before the Bible was completely written or as signs given to authenticate the gospel message (which btw is a very good reason for the continuation of the gifts IMO), and, the way I see it is, in order for anyone to even say that there is no God it actually would take absolute knowledge. Who has absolute knowledge? To make such a statement would mean that one would need to know all things and especially be omnipotent and omniscient…because God could actually be somewhere and they just haven’t come across Him yet.

The same is true regarding the miraculous gifts. Just because one personally hasn't seen them happening doesn't mean God isn't somewhere in the world working through His people in these ways. So I believe the gifts continue.

Yet, and even though many would also say they know the gifts exist because they have seen them, it's not about what we experience anyway but about what the bible says. I've searched the scriptures and was under the cessation teaching for many years but now my mind has changed.
#1. No. I've desired other gifts and haven't asked for tongues but it's alright with me for Holy Spirit to give me what He desires and wills, not my will.

#2. They are to edify and for worshipping God, to name a few reasons.

#3. For those who have the true spiritual gift of tongues, Holy Spirit is speaking.

I'm not sure why you're asking. I believe in the gifts. I'm not an extreme continuationist -- I believe no one has all the gifts, but all born again believers have a/some gift(s). Please see the article from got questions that I posted today, too, in this discussion. My beliefs align with the continuing of the gifts as it outlines them.
PS I suppose one could say the person is speaking but the ability is supernatural and is from God as is the message.

When I first returned to the Lord I witnessed something very bizarre in regards to speaking in tongues.  I was a new believer, so I didn't really know what the bible said about it, but it left me feeling very uncomfortable and unsettled.

I attended a special prayer service in Toronto with some other people.  It was very wonderful and large...probably 300 people were there.

Near the end of the prayer gathering (it was held in a church), the leader told us that we were on holy ground so we must remove our shoes (that's fine).  Then she instructed for all the people to speak in tongues at the same time....just "say it outloud, don't be shy".  Well... I didn't speak in tongues then, and I don't speak in tongues now.  It seemed that everyone around me was speaking in tongues (except one other who was with me).  It was very chaotic and disorderly and uncomfortable.  The girl on the stage looked right at me and said something like, "This meeting is for believers only, if you are not a believer, you are welcome to leave".... but I couldn't leave because the people I came with were my ride home. And--- I was a NEW believer..I loved the Lord then just as I love Him now.

I am very cautious and discerning now when it comes to these things.

If they were all speaking because of a gift God gave them, it seemed to me at the time that they were abusing the gift.

I went home that night and studied about tongues, and I then learned that it was indeed an abuse and misuse.

Blessings, Carla

The leader in that meeting was violating the clear rules in Scripture for tongue speaking. You weren't an unbeliever but were newborn and uninformed. 1 Cor 14:23.

God is not the author of confusion. 1 Cor 14:32-33. Tongue speaking is subject to the speaker, not vice versa. If it's out of control, the person isn't allowing Holy Spirit to lead, IMO. This is sad because Holy Spirit seeks to unify the Body.

People disobey, but tongues isn't the only gift that is misused and abused. I like this article

Thanks for sharing that article... It's very good.  Here are some of my take-aways:

"We need each other, by God's design. Americans like to be lone-rangers or marines, and perhaps this is the motive source for this false teaching; but God has another idea. By choosing the gifts and not giving any gift to all, or all the gifts to one, we must submit to each other or we will never truly experience "life more abundantly". So God has told us why the Spirit chooses... as well as that He does choose."


"Imagine a healthy, functioning body, where each member is doing its part and is not focused on itself or some other part. That is what 1Cor 12 is encouraging us to be. Let us stop the chest-beating antics, and let us stop beating each-other other up as well. Let us join together as team specially selected by the Lord, each of us with a unique gift and something to offer the body. Let us go to our proper stations and just do it. For without Christ in us by the Holy Spirit, we "can do nothing" (Jn 15:5). But with Him, as He reflects through us each and all differently, we can produce much fruit that will last and display His glory on the earth."


"Mr. Soulwinner has had great success in a brief career of winning people to Christ. But instead of continuing to practice his unique grace-gift for the general benefit of the body, he grows irritated that others do not share his passion to win souls, and concludes that those in the body who are not-so-gifted are all screwed-up. And--you guessed it--now he is going to "fix" the rest of us. This pathology is all too familiar: a bit of success in the field and then the evangelist turns inward like some rabid dog to "minister" to the rest of us for the remainder of his life about how complacent we are for not doing more of what he once did. Instead of this, he should be out winning more souls, for that is his unique, exemplary, and edifying role among us. But instead, we are sure to get harangued at every prayer meeting, discussion, or sermon for not being as good as he is--or once was.

1Cor 12:19 (Jer) If all the parts were the same, how could it be a body?

Scripture passages like this should teach us to avoid such pride masquerading as ministry, but apparently we have missed the point."


Very good. The article laid it all out nicely, in my POV, and I, too, thought it was edifying.

It is very commonly believed and taught that we are to want others to be independent, and not dependent in any way after childhood and upon becoming adults, but interdependency is what I believe the Bible teaches and it involves being both dependent and independent, a mutual exchange where each person is receiving from and giving to the other person.

The finished work of Christ on the cross, and the blood of the new covenant brings healing and restoration for all who repent, believe, and receive Jesus. This means that the interdependent relationship between all members in the Body can be attained, at least to some degree, now.

We are to walk in the Spirit, and most people look at Ephesians 5:21-33 as showing us the Christ-like qualities that each one of us, when allowing Jesus to live in and through us, can bring into marriage, but notice what verse 21 says. 21 Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ. (NIV) It's context includes verses 15-20 as well and is speaking to us all as the "dearly loved children" (verse 1) told to follow God's example and walk in the way of love as Christ loved us.

There's only one Body but many members.

Hence, submission is to be mutual if all are born again believers seeking the will of God in their relationships. As the author states , wherever you find a scripture on the gifts, this point is insisted on: God chooses which gift to give to whom. And why? So that we might "fit together" in mutual interdependency into a collective "body". We need each other, by God's design.

I really liked this part:

The following passage is critical to understanding the interplay of the gifts in the body, and how we can go far wrong due to "ignorance", as we will see momentarily. While it is the same Holy Spirit working, in each person it is "different". 1 Cor 12:1-31 (NIV) Now about spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be ignorant... There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit... There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men. Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines. The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ... Now the body is not made up of one part but of many. If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? But in fact God has arranged the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. If they were all one part, where would the body be? As it is, there are many parts, but one body. The eye cannot say to the hand, "I don't need you!" And the head cannot say to the feet, "I don't need you!" On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable... God has combined the members of the body... so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it. Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret?

Hmmm, I guess I'm just in my rotten phase today, cause I was thinking...

I wonder how that girl would have taken it had someone looked at her and said all those that pretend to believe and are false prophets infiltrating the church, you're welcome to leave.

LOL Seek,  I was so insecure in my was all so new to me.  I wonder if even now I would have that boldness.  If it happened now I would certainly walk out, but I honestly don't know if I would say something.

I hope I'm never in that situation again.

Tongues, and any gift, are given by the Holy Spirit and never commanded by men. I have a friend, who while I love her, once told me that I needed to speak in tongues every day. Nowhere does scripture teach this. Tongues is given by the Spirit. I can't just open my mouth and speak what's in my head. When I do speak it is not me making sounds from thoughts nor under any power I have. It comes during prayer and not frequently. Usually during fervent prayer.


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