All About GOD - Growing Relationships with Jesus and Others
Question about Homosexuality
So my friend and I got into a quite heated debate the other day...
Her sister is marrying..another woman, and she has basically cut her sister off.
The first part of the debate was...since her sister is not saved, what purpose does it have to boycott the wedding and tell her she is going to hell? It was her take that it was just wrong no matter what, it was my take that we should show love and compassion to the unsaved. Not saying we should say we agree, but still be supportive of our family.
Here was the biggie...and I didn't understand it. She got very aggitated when I brought up a belief of mine. I believe that if a homosexual gets saved that we should really focus on Paul's teaching of staying single and how Paul says we can be better focused on God and doing His works as a single person.
Here is where it got sticky, I said...and I believe this, that getting saved is not neccesarily an immediate "cure" to what ever has been broken in "this person". Not to say it's not possible, I do know of people who eventually did enter into heterosexual realtionships and are happily married. But I wonder the validity of telling a person..."OK, now your saved, you should never struggle with this again and if you do, your sinning" Now I know that Jesus said whatever we do in our hearts..we do for real, but I also know that as "straight people" even we sin in our hearts everyday. If it's not an "adultrous thought" how many of us have had hateful thoughts. Should we persecute a person for something we are guilty of? I beleive this is what Jesus meant by "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone".
She seemed to think I was condoning homosexuality, I thought I was being quite clear that I do not.
Is there a middle ground on this issue? Can we be against homosexuality without condeming those who are struggling.
I walked away not knowing if I was wrong or if I had not stated my position clearly, or if she had just not listened clearly. I do not believe in any any circumstance that we should force a marriage on a person we know to be struggling with this. It is not fair to them and not fair to the person they marry. I beleive the only clear sane option is to encourage them and show them how a person can have a whole fullfilling life as a single person who does not date....I know many straight christians who have thrown the towel in and no longer date...and they are happy.
I do have to say that she also seemed to really not agree with Paul's teaching of remaining single.
So how do we approach new converts who are gay? Do we tell them they have to "snap out of it?" or do we lovingly and patiently teach how how they can live in God's grace and still have a life full of purpose while remaining single and celibate?
I love this friend, but we have cultural differences...and she is so ready to go to battle and so untrusting, sometimes it's exhausting. On the other hand, I don't think she understands where I come from in life and she accused me of being "flighty" and not standing for anything. I just don't think we gotta go to war or offend people....can't we say what we stand for in a nice way? Or do we have to be "in your face about it"...cause I just don't think I have the energy to be an "in your face" person.
Her sister is marrying..another woman, and she has basically cut her sister off.
The first part of the debate was...since her sister is not saved, what purpose does it have to boycott the wedding and tell her she is going to hell? It was her take that it was just wrong no matter what, it was my take that we should show love and compassion to the unsaved. Not saying we should say we agree, but still be supportive of our family.
Here was the biggie...and I didn't understand it. She got very aggitated when I brought up a belief of mine. I believe that if a homosexual gets saved that we should really focus on Paul's teaching of staying single and how Paul says we can be better focused on God and doing His works as a single person.
Here is where it got sticky, I said...and I believe this, that getting saved is not neccesarily an immediate "cure" to what ever has been broken in "this person". Not to say it's not possible, I do know of people who eventually did enter into heterosexual realtionships and are happily married. But I wonder the validity of telling a person..."OK, now your saved, you should never struggle with this again and if you do, your sinning" Now I know that Jesus said whatever we do in our hearts..we do for real, but I also know that as "straight people" even we sin in our hearts everyday. If it's not an "adultrous thought" how many of us have had hateful thoughts. Should we persecute a person for something we are guilty of? I beleive this is what Jesus meant by "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone".
She seemed to think I was condoning homosexuality, I thought I was being quite clear that I do not.
Is there a middle ground on this issue? Can we be against homosexuality without condeming those who are struggling.
I walked away not knowing if I was wrong or if I had not stated my position clearly, or if she had just not listened clearly. I do not believe in any any circumstance that we should force a marriage on a person we know to be struggling with this. It is not fair to them and not fair to the person they marry. I beleive the only clear sane option is to encourage them and show them how a person can have a whole fullfilling life as a single person who does not date....I know many straight christians who have thrown the towel in and no longer date...and they are happy.
I do have to say that she also seemed to really not agree with Paul's teaching of remaining single.
So how do we approach new converts who are gay? Do we tell them they have to "snap out of it?" or do we lovingly and patiently teach how how they can live in God's grace and still have a life full of purpose while remaining single and celibate?
I love this friend, but we have cultural differences...and she is so ready to go to battle and so untrusting, sometimes it's exhausting. On the other hand, I don't think she understands where I come from in life and she accused me of being "flighty" and not standing for anything. I just don't think we gotta go to war or offend people....can't we say what we stand for in a nice way? Or do we have to be "in your face about it"...cause I just don't think I have the energy to be an "in your face" person.
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Ron Payne on
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Just a point Christelle. The bad thoughts we sometimes get, are not ours until we make them ours.
Regarding the homosexual question.
The problem is, what do you say to people under the circumstances when they ask your opinion. Do you push the question aside by saying; I'ts their problem not mine."?
Or are you as straight forward as the Bible, in what Paul has to say?
"Don't you know that evil people won't have a share in the blessings of God's kingdom? Don't fool yourselves! No one who is immoral or worships idols or is unfaithful in marriage or is a pervert or behaves like a homosexual will share in God's kingdom. Neither will any thief or greedy person or drunkard or anyone who curses and cheats others.
Some of you used to be like that. But now the name of our Lord Jesus Christ and the power of God's Spirit have washed you and made you holy and acceptable to God." 1Cor:9-11
God has therefore warned against homosexuality, but a further warning is added
"When I say to the wicked, You shall surely die; and you do not give him warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked one shall die in his iniquity; but I will require his blood at your hand." Eze 3:18
The question to ask then is, should we say nothing, will the Grace we are under protect us and overlook the threat found in Ezra?
If the answer is "Yes", then why even bother to witness to the lost and attempt to bring them to the Cross?
The real problem as I see it, is witness you must. But walk warily when talking to the unregenerate about homosexuality.
Ron
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Permalink Reply by christelle on
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I am in complete agreement that we need to teach against homosexuality. What I am not in agreement over is the way we treat homosexuals or how we treat a saved person who used to be in that life style.
I mean is it better to condem them? Or to lovingly explain to them that this is not pleasing to God..but that they can be happy as a christian. That they don't have to trade their lifestyle for misery, but can find fullfillment in the Lord and celibacy.
I'm not really even sure that she and I were debating over the same thing...I really got the impression that because she is married, she does not like the teachings of Paul and how he says it is better to remain single. But I still stand that a person cannot be a christian and be in a homosexual lifestyle...but we cannot force that person into a "straight relationship"
I mean..do you think we should stress being single and celibate or stress for them to try to have a normal relationship? This is the part I'm questioning...not the sinfullness of homosexuality...I believe the Bible is clear that it is wrong.
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Permalink Reply by Nicki Bulicek on
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I have struggled with this subject with my family as well. I, like you think that we should take a loving approach and lead by example and show them how fulfilling Christianity can be.
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Permalink Reply by Mandy on
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Dear Christelle; I totally agree with you regarding Paul's teaching. If someone believes themselves to be a homosexual; but Loves the Lord and places him above all and first. And chooses to be celebate and lead a christian life, that is honorable in the site of God; that person will most likely live by Grace of the Lord.
I will get back with more; I am at work. But I agree with you that we do not need to be "in your face" christians, because all we do when we behave this way is cause that person to despise christians more and they rebel.
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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on
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I would not attend the wedding, believer or non-believer. Attendance is viewed as support of the people and the event. Whether intended or not, it will be viewed by all that I support and condone the union. I can love the person caught in sin and at the same time not condone or participate in anything that furthers that sin. This may not be viewed as apples for apples, but I would not attend a keg party where the intent is to get drunk, even though I do not drink. I would not attend a swingers club even though I am faithful to my wife. A stance on our position must be that we have nothing to do with the lifestyle of sin. God will neither bless the union or the individul when they wilfully choose sin and their way of life over His. as long as they are together repentence can not be true. I also do not stay for most receptions after a wedding takes place because of the activity that tends to degress as the night goes on.
Regarding how people deal with being attracted to another of the same sex after being saved is similar to any other sin we may be attracted to. Fight it, reject it and do not succumb to the temptation. Remembering that temptation is not sin, embracing the temptation is. One needs to put themself in a position to overcome and that may mean changing friends and social hang outs. You are right to say that many do not change overnight and the temptation is gone. Does this mean they wil be perfect and never fail? And if they do, then what? (rhetorical question)
It truly is possile to love the person and not the sin. If they are offended because I decline attending then they will have to deal with it. I cannot compromise to make them happy. Will I lose the opportunity to share the gospel with them in the future? I am not closing the door. If that happens they closed the door and we have to turn that over to God.
Regarding getting married or not getting married. No one has to get married. That is a choice. If the person cannot find a person of the oppositie sex to marry then they can remain unmarried. That is acceptable.
New converts: Love them, encorage them, teach them and hold them accountable the same as we need to be held accountable for any sin that lures us. We cannot toss them away, nor can we condone any sinful lifestyle.
Last thought, note that there is a great difference between one having sinned once or twice, repenting because they know it is sin and asking for forgiveness and one who chooses a perpetual life of sin without regard for God and His Word.
Lord Bless,
LT
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Hi M.L.
You speak of "When the fetus is born in the womb" ~ "it is then that the brain disorder occurs".
One must walk very carefully here, because you are blaming God for a man's homosexual behaviour.
Surely God cannot purposefully allow a man to be born with a brain disorder and then condemn him to hell?
I don't read of God condemning men with mental disorders, neither do I read of God condemning one who is blind, or born with a weak heart, or even a weak conscience, etc.etc. All of them also sin.
But God DOES condemn ALL sin.
We read and believe that God is merciful. Would God form a man with Homosexual tendencies and then condemn the man with such purposeful disgust? This is impossible for the God who sent His Son to die for mankind.
We are all inclined towards sin. I believe that every one of us, have our "special sin" that we hold on to. Be it, Lies,Theft, Pornography or whatever...... and YES! There may even be Homosexual's amongst us, who have come to the Cross, but find it extremely difficult to put their favourite sin behind them. But like us they look to God's mercy through Jesus Christ.
Having become Christians, There are four differences concerning Christians and non Christians:
1.) We don't blame God for our failure to stop continuing in our own particular sin. 2.) It is taken to the Cross and seventy times seven we may ask God for forgiveness. 3.) We are ashamed of our sin and we certainly don't encourage others to commit the same sin by flaunting our sin to all men, or insist that they participate with us. 4.) Every attempt is continually made by us and encouraged by the Holy Spirit to put our "Cherished sin" behind us.
We are going to die or be raptured together with our favourite sin/s that we have come to hate, but were unable to overcome.
Under these conditions, God does not reject us or promise us a place in Hell for eternity. But we must know that when we stand before God's Judgement throne, our rewards will be diminished. We will not be punished for the sins we could not overcome, but we will be rewarded for the sins we put behind us in order to please God and walk as an example to all men.
As for all of us..... Those sins which we held so dear, will cause us to lose the extra rewards we should have received, had we had victory over them.....BUT! God has promised us: "As far as the East is from the West, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us". Psa 103:12
"I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sin." Isa 43:25
Depending then on our Christian walk which can never be perfect, we will receive many or few rewards.
As for all the sins we have committed, be they sins we held on to, or sins we managed to overcome, we must remember that sin remains sin until the penalty for sin is met.
It was all our sins, that sent Jesus to the Cross in order that Our Judge's declaration: "The soul that sins, must die". The Cross satisfied the Righteousness of God when Jesus fulfilled His Father's decision and declaration.
Praise and Thank you Jesus.....
Ron
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Permalink Reply by Stephen on
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Hi Christelle... I hope everything is going well.
This is my first post and I just want to give my opinion about homosexuality.
On my own perspective, I think I could just accept homosexuality as a basic fact nowadays. Loving a person of the same sex is actually not illegal according to the laws and according to THE BIBLE. Why?
I Corinthians 11
Says that above everything else, love surpasses any rules that has been given. As what I understood, though homosexuality is illegal according to our faith, it is actually allowed given that you love the person, the person loves you, and at the same time, both of you has a deep love to God. It is actually true to me because when I was in high school, I remembered a quotation that lingers on my mind until today. "In the end, we will be judged according to love." So if we will judge these people with such criticisms in our minds, we too, will be criticized on the judgment day. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
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Permalink Reply by Carla on
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Hi Christelle,
It is important to always go to the bible and find out what God has to say about this. You have already gotten some great answers here. People who are caught in their sin are in that sin, because they feel they are getting something out of it...and they find ways to justify why it's okay. As a result they make it 'okay' in their own minds. But, if we claim to believe in Jesus as Savior, then we must each confront the sin we are caught in and do our best to hand it over to Christ, repent and ask forgiveness. Anyhow..that's my two cents worth... Here's an answer from www.gotquestions.org . They are reliable because they always turn to scripture to find out God's Word regarding the matter at hand. I think it is probably duplicating alot of what has already been said here that is biblical. God does not change and God's Word does not change, it is the same, yesterday, today and forever!
Here's the article:
Question: "What does the Bible say about homosexuality? Is homosexuality a sin?"
Answer: The Bible consistently tells us that homosexual activity is a sin (Genesis 19:1-13; Leviticus 18:22; Romans 1:26-27; 1 Corinthians 6:9). Romans 1:26-27 teaches specifically that homosexuality is a result of denying and disobeying God. When a person continues in sin and disbelief, the Bible tells us that God “gives them over” to even more wicked and depraved sin in order to show them the futility and hopelessness of life apart from God. 1 Corinthians 6:9 proclaims that homosexual “offenders” will not inherit the kingdom of God.
God does not create a person with homosexual desires. The Bible tells us that a person becomes a homosexual because of sin (Romans 1:24-27), and ultimately because of their own choice. A person may be born with a greater susceptibility to homosexuality, just as people are born with a tendency to violence and other sins. That does not excuse the person choosing to sin by giving into their sinful desires. If a person is born with a greater susceptibility to anger / rage, does that make it right for then to give into those desires? Of course not! The same is true for homosexuality.
However, the Bible does not describe homosexuality as a “greater” sin than any other. All sin is offensive to God. Homosexuality is just one of the many things listed in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 that will keep a person from the kingdom of God. According to the Bible, God’s forgiveness is just as available to a homosexual as it is to an adulterer, idol worshipper, murderer, thief, etc. God also promises the strength for victory over sin, including homosexuality, to all those who will believe in Jesus Christ for their salvation (1 Corinthians 6:11; 2 Corinthians 5:17).
Recommended Resource: Coming out of Homosexuality by Bob Davies and 101 Frequently Asked Questions About Homosexuality by Mike Haley.
Blessings, Carla
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Permalink Reply by April Lipinski on
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I have to comment to this...I use to define myself as a lesbian before I came to know the Lord three years ago. I always tried to rationalize my descision and my lifestyle, but I was always unsuccessfully at finding peace between God and this sinful lifestyle. My sister, who has been a christian much longer than I, always firmly held that stance that she loved me no matter what I did, but that she thought homosexuality is in fact a sin. She loved me, but she never supported me. For this I am greatful. Since the Holy Spirit miraculously intervened in my life and revealed the truth of Jesus Christ and His Holy Word, I immediately realized homosexuality was a sin and I have sought to reform my life and repent. Though I still struggle with temptation and have sinned in my thoughts on a few occassions, I know absolutely know 100% that it is a sin. It has been a struggle, though, it is made much easier when I follow and surrender to the Spirit of Life. Love them... please, but do not ever support them, and do tell them these bible verses that will convict their heart...and by God's grace they will come around...if they are chosen. Thank the Lord God Almighty for revealing His glorious truth to my heart.
--April
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