Prophesy

Comment

Comment by Carla on July 16, 2009 at 7:44am

Hello Everyone,

I have been reading a few prophecy books, and I believe in pre-trib rapture.. But it has been strongly put on my heart, that I have not studied it for myself...I have read opinions of people, and they make sense to me.. But just because it makes sense to me, it doesn't mean it is true.. Each one of us can be very easily deceived when we don't pray for Holy Spirit revelation. I started to respond to some of these posts...but I held back because I felt Holy Spirit conviction in responding because I had not studied it myself and was accepting the interpretation of men... that is why I have not posted in a while on this topic.

I am praising God, that I have some days coming up to myself...my hubby is taking the kids on a road-trip with the boys...just a boys trip...so I am going to spend some quality time with my sweet Savior..and study the scriptures. I'm going to stay away from the opinions of men during this time...even stating that is going to be difficult.. This scripture convicted me this morning:
1 Corinthians 3:13-23

Our accomplishments ....this includes applying scripture to our lives...must be the direct result of the Holy Spirit revealing things to us. This can not come from man..

Love and God bless.
With fear and trembling, and in humility...study and pray! Share the gospel in Love and Truth. We must work hard!

Comment by Natasha Mayes on July 16, 2009 at 12:26am

Brothers and Sisters in Christ
I want to ask of all of you to not argue over who is right and wrong; how much knowledge one has as opposed to how little another; how many books were read on the subject and which ones. We should as with all other aspects of our Christian lives, allow the Spirit to guide us. I can harp on and on about the history of the church, which I'm sure for some of you must be tedious. (Not every-one can sit through and enjoy a history lesson!) But once the explanation of the churches are past I'm going to take a break from Revelation for a while to look at some of the Lord's own prophesies regarding the end-time. I do not mean the 'end of the world' end time. I mean what the world will look like according to our Lord as we approach the end. In this I will ask every-one that had been so faithful in assisting me in this group to please, please, please continue to do so, but to be extremely carefull, as I myself will be, when dealing with this subject. Let us constantly pray for one another for wisdom, for guidance, for understanding. Let us not, in our vigour to explain, in the process alienate our fellows.
Love in Christ
Natasha

Comment by Natasha Mayes on July 13, 2009 at 11:40pm

Brother Glen, You took the words right out of my mouth!
Regarding the Rapture: If the many passages regarding the Rapture and the 2nd coming is read concurrently, we see that these cannot possibly refer to the same event. Some differences like passages where the Lord Himself describe the Rapture, (He doesn't call it that) as coming as a thief in the night, unexpectantly, and no-one would have been forwarned. The 2nd coming is accompanied by signs in the sky, the clouds rolling away like a scroll and Him appearing on a white horse with His own. The one event happening in the blink of an eye, while the other consisting of a series of battles in the Valley of Megiddo, Jerusalem, Olive Mount (where the Lord will finally set down His feet causing the mount to split. (Not that these could really be called "battles" because lets face it: the Word says He will destroy our enemies with the two-sided sword coming from His mouth. Who will be able to stand against that?) Then there is the Lord's own promises that His own will be KEPT OUT OF THE WRATH THAT IS TO COME. (Rev 3:10) and the Spirit's promise through Paul that Jesus will PERSONALLY DELIVER US FROM THE WRATH WHICH IS TO COME. (1Thes 1:10) Was the Lord lying when He gave us these promises? NO ABSOLUTELY NOT! He doesn't contradict Himself. He is NOT A MAN THAT HE SHOULD LIE!
For these reasons I cling to His promise of deliverence and hold on to that "blessed hope" that He will indeed rapture His own before the Tribulation.
Love in Christ
Natasha

Comment by Carla on July 13, 2009 at 7:06am

This morning my heart is before the Lord. Search me Lord; Help me Holy Spirit; guied me, and use me. Not I but You O Lord be glorified. all that All I share O Lord Jesus get the glory. Forgive me Lord for having my own eyes and not having the eyes of eternity. Help us to stay before your feet, help me Jesus before I speak again. I am a trumpeter -a wathman -an intercessor ------I will not argue ----I will share truth. -----Truth sets people free! Lord let all today on this web be lead by your Holy Spirit. Stop me Lord ,-put a check in my spirit,- Lead me in Jesus name amen!
my knees in prayer -humbly and in tears. Amen!

Comment by Carla on July 13, 2009 at 4:05am

Hello Pastor Johnny J Christen,

You have asked can anyone find a pre-tribulation resurrection?

the answer is
'YES.. Jesus is resurrected..He lives!'
Blessings, Carla

Comment by NJUKI KENNETH on July 13, 2009 at 3:57am

have invitation to help build the church of GOD,anyone to assist?mathews 28:19.

Comment by Pastor Johnny J Christen on July 12, 2009 at 4:54pm

Can Anyone Find

a Pre-Tribulation Resurrection?



by Anthony Buzzard



The debate over the pre- or post-tribulation rapture should really be called the debate about the pre- or post-trib resurrection. The discussion is about the place of the resurrection in the sequence of end-time events. Will there be a resurrection of the church before the onset of the great tribulation of Daniel’s 70th week? Pre-tribulationism says that the faithful will be resurrected seven years before Christ’s return in power and glory. (This is a new teaching dating from the 1830s, never heard of before that time.)

Both sides of the argument agree that there will indeed be a resurrection of the dead after the tribulation. But the pre-trib. camp maintains that this post-trib. resurrection has nothing to do with the church — because the Christians will have been resurrected before the tribulation.

The two positions may be illustrated very simply thus:



A
---SEVEN-YEAR PERIOD--
B

Pre-trib. secret coming of Jesus

Post-trib. Second Coming of Jesus

Pre-trib. rapture/resurrection of Church

Post-trib. Rapture/Resurrection of Church




The question is this: Where in Scripture is there a mention of a resurrection before the tribulation period? Consider these facts:

1) The Resurrection in Daniel 12:2 (“Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake....”) occurs just after the great tribulation described in Daniel 12:1, a verse earlier. This is a post-trib. resurrection.

2) The gathering of the elect at the sound of the trumpet in Matthew 24:31 happens soon after the great tribulation (see Matt. 24:29, “immediately after the tribulation of those days...”). This is a post-trib. resurrection.

3) The resurrection promised to the faithful in John 6:39, 40, 44, 54 occurs at the last day — presumably the last day of this age, not seven years earlier. This is post-trib.

4) The resurrection of 1 Corinthians 15:23 involves all the Christians and happens “at the coming of Jesus.” Verses 51 and 52 describe this as a mystery which will occur in the twinkling of an eye at the last trumpet.

5) The resurrection of Revelation 11:15-18 (“the time came for the dead to be judged”) happens at the seventh (i.e., last of a sequence of seven) trumpet and this is after the time of the Great Tribulation, as both camps agree. This, too, is a post-trib. resurrection.

6) The resurrection of the dead found in Revelation 20:4 occurs after the arrival of Jesus to destroy the Beast and False Prophet (Rev. 19:20, 21). This, also, is a post-trib. resurrection, as all agree.

7) The resurrection described in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 occurs at the day of the Lord (1 Thess. 5:2) when sudden destruction comes upon the unsuspecting world (1 Thess. 5:3). This, too, must therefore be a post-trib. resurrection.

8) The gathering of the church to the Lord at the coming of Jesus promised in 2 Thessalonians 2:1 will not occur until after the Man of Sin is revealed (“The day of the Lord will not come until the apostasy comes first and the man of sin is revealed,” v. 3). This, therefore, is a post-trib. resurrection.



Where then is the pre-trib. resurrection in which so many place their hope? There appears to be no such event. If the resurrection of the faithful does not occur after the tribulation in Matthew 24:31 (gathering of the elect) where in Matthew 24 does it occur? If the resurrection of the Christians does not occur at the seventh trumpet in Revelation 11:15, where in Revelation is it mentioned?

Overlooking the primary evidence above, which establishes the place of the resurrection in the order of events, the pre-trib. argument may attempt a counter-position as follows:



(a) Maintain in Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, where the only gathering of the saints mentioned is POST-trib., that there is no mention of the resurrection and gathering of the church. This would mean that in the whole of Jesus’ discussion of the end-time and the Second Coming he omits entirely to say anything about when Christians will be resurrected and gathered! Though he speaks to disciples who are the foundation of the church, PRE-trib. maintains that nothing is said of the resurrection or gathering of the church.

Note: The “elect” whom Jesus instructs are the faithful church as Matthew 22:14 shows (chosen = “elect,” same Greek word).

(b) Maintain that the resurrection and gathering described in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 [(7) above] happens before the Tribulation.

Note: This can only be attempted by overlooking the context of the passage. Firstly, 4:13-17, taken without reference to the following context, does not say when this event occurs. But the following verses (5:1-4) do tell us that the event in question will take the world by surprise. This means that it is a post-trib. event, as are all the other descriptions of the resurrection.

(c) Maintain that Revelation 4:1-2, where John was invited to “come up here,” describes the resurrection and gathering of millions of dead and living Christians. This goes far beyond the evidence. Not a word is said about a rapture or resurrection in this passage.



Final note: 1 Corinthians 15:52 tells us that the resurrection of the faithful will occur at the last trumpet. Revelation 11:15-18 says that when the last (the seventh) trumpet sounds the “time for the dead to be judged and rewarded has come.” This trumpet sounds after the Tribulation, as all agree. Can it seriously be held that the last trumpet and the seventh trumpet are not the same event? If they are the same they provide absolute proof of the post-trib. resurrection for all the faithful. If 11:15 is not the resurrection of the church where in the whole of the book of Revelation is there a pre-tribulation resurrection? Where in the whole Bible is there evidence of a resurrection occurring before the tribulation?

We should be careful not to place our hopes in an event which the Bible does not promise.
http://www.focusonthekingdom.org/articles/tribres.htm

Comment by Pastor Johnny J Christen on July 12, 2009 at 4:41pm

The Second Coming of Christ
Bible verses used to prove the "Pre-Trib" Rapture_INSTEAD_prove the "Post-Trib" Rapture, at the "EndTimes Bible Prophecy Conference" in northern California, on March 3, 2007
http://post-triborpre-trib.blogspot.com/

Comment by Pastor Johnny J Christen on July 12, 2009 at 4:30pm

out of the same study
RAPTURE OF THE CHURCH


The 7th Trumpet blows (11:15) Jesus returns on the clouds and thrusts in the sickle to harvest the saints (Rev. 14:14-16, Matt. 24:29-31, Mark 13:26-27, 1Cor. 15:51-52, 1Thess. 4:16-17) The dead saints are resurrected to life and, together with the saints who are still alive, they are both raptured! These saints are all glorified with new, incorruptable, immortal bodies as they meet Jesus in the couds!


Rev. 14:14
And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.


The saints who were harvested in Rev. 14:14-16 include the Tribulation saints whom have gained the victory over the beast, his image and over his mark and the number of his name, and they are now singing the song of Moses and of the Lamb on a sea of glass with the harps of God. (Rev. 15:1-3) All of these together are the 1st Resurrection saints of Rev. 20:4-6.


Rev. 15:2-3
And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. [3] And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.



The ONLY Rapture of the book of Revelations is in 14:14-16, 15:1-3! This is the FIRST Resurrection of the Saints (20:4-6)
The victorious "Tribulation" saints are shown, in scripture, to be included in the "first" and "only" rapture which is not possible in the Pre-Tribulation rapture doctrine which excludes these "Tribulation" saints from being part of this first resurrection!

Comment by Pastor Johnny J Christen on July 12, 2009 at 4:26pm

I also came across this study Brother

THE RAPTURE

AFTER THE TRIBULATION, BEFORE THE WRATH OF GOD!
by Brian O'Connell
www.crossbearer.net


The following summary is given without scripture references to keep it simple. I will then follow with a detailed study to explain and confirm my understanding of the scriptures for this summary! In beginning this study, I would like to say that, if you are a Christian brother or sister of the pre-trib school, I love you and have no desire to divide myself from fellowship with you! I am convinced that the pre-trib doctrine is false, but it is not a "damnable" doctrine, which is a doctrine that will cause a soul to be lost! A correct understanding of the timing of the rapture, is intended to prepare the church to endure the Tribulation, which the pre-trib doctrine is failing to ensure! Since my study below is NOT from any other Post-Trib source other than from what I personally have found in scripture, please do not assume you know what this study is about without first reviewing it. As you read, if you feel I am wrong, please write me and we can discuss our differences!


Summary


The church (the Saints) shall remain upon the earth until the 7th (or Last) Trumpet. There will NOT be a secret rapture of the church nor will the rapture of the church occur prior to the 7th trumpet of the Tribulation! When the last trumpet sounds, the dead saints are resurrected first and the saints who are still alive, will ascend to meet Jesus in the clouds of the air. Every human being on the face of earth will see Jesus in the air when the saints meet Him. The rapture will be as plain as day, as visible as lightning, of which no one will wonder what happened to the Christians. The Tribulation is NOT the Wrath of God! These are shown in scripture as two separate events. The saints are raptured at the END of the Tribulation, and then God pours out the 7 plagues of His wrath upon the earth as the resurrected saints are with Jesus in heaven. I personally believe that the plaques of Gods wrath are a one day event which takes place while the saints are in heaven at the wedding supper of the Lamb, preparing to return with Christ at the end of the Wrath of God. Those who are not ready for the rapture, and are left behind, are subjects of Gods wrath and do NOT have a "second chance" as some teach. The scripture declares 3 times that they blaspheme God during the plagues and not a single person will repent. Knowing they shall be destroyed when Jesus returns, they will then gather at Armageddon to "fight for their lives" against Jesus Christ and his army of angels and saints. Armageddon is not a war of nation against nation as some teach, but a war of the nations of the earth gathering to fight Jesus and his army! They are fully aware that Jesus is immediately returning to do war against them. When the Lord Jesus Christ returns with his army at the completion of 7 plagues of Gods Wrath, he will consume the wicked with the breath of his mouth and His feet will stand upon the Mount of Olives. He enters the Temple in Jerusalem and destroys the Antichrist. He will then begin his 1,000 year reign on earth with the saints who now are Kings and Priests with Christ. Contrary to some teachers doctrine, the "Tribulation saints" are clearly shown in scripture to be included as those who will rule with Christ! A remnant of those who came against the Lord will survive the Lords wrath and will then father the future generations that will one day be inspired by Satan to come against the city of the saints. These are NOT, as some teach, "Tribulation saints", but rather they are the children of the wicked who survived the brightness of the coming of Christ. Many of these descendents will one day be deceived by Satan to attempt a rebellion against Christ after the 1,000 year reign, but the Lord will consume them with fire and bring an end to the Old Earth. The Lord will then raise the wicked dead from hell and judge them and cast them into the Lake of Fire. He will then create a New Heaven and a New Earth in which the Father and the Son of God will dwell with the saints, on the New Earth, forever!

Origins of the PreTribulation Doctrine



The PreTribulation Doctrine was originated in the nineteenth century by John Nelson Darby, a member of the Plymouth Brethren movement. Samuel P. Tregelles, also of the Plymouth Brethren, charges that the view originated during a charismatic service conducted by Edward Irving in 1832. Others maintain that it was the product of a prophetic vision given to a young Scottish girl, Margaret MacDonald, in 1830. Impressed by the accounts of a new Pentecost, Darby visited the scene of the revival and met Margaret MacDonald. Darby rejected her claims of a new outpouring of the Spirit, but he accepted her view of the rapture (Pre-Tribulation) and worked it into his own system.


This view has had worldwide influence ever since. In the 1960's Hal Lindsey's books popularized this doctrine.


From “Evangelical Dictionary of Theology” Pages 908-910
Edited by Walter A. Elwell
Baker Book House
Grand Rapids, Michigan 49506


If you will note the following web page, 100-300 years ago, several very notable scholars agreed that Rev. 14:14-16 and Matthew 24:31, Post-Tribulation, was the point of Rapture! Scholars view on the Rapture


If you still have questions after reviewing this page, I have a page that deals with the many false teachings of the pre-trib school "point by point" as I contend with Tim LaHayes book "The Popular Encyclopedia of Bible Prophecy"
http://posttribrapture.com/

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