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When was the Holy Spirit Given?
This question came up in my reading of Psalms, where in 51:11, David says: Do not cast me from your presence or take your Holy Spirit from me.
So I looked up information on this:
John 7:39
The Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.
Acts 1:16
... which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake....
Luke 1:15, 41, 67
He [John the Baptist] shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb. (v.15)
Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost. (v.41)
Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost. (v.67)
Now there's a whole lot more in both new and old, but this gives an idea of what I'm questioning.
So I thought, perhaps the Holy Spirit was there, but the "infilling" was what happened in the N.T. But then I go back to John 7:39.
I can't seem to find enough online to explain this and was wondering if anyone had any insight into what this might mean.
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on
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A couple of points:
1) The Holy Spirit is God and has always existed and has always been omnipresent (everywhere at the same time).2) The Holy Spirit has always been active, from creation to resurrection to now and beyond.
3) The Holy Spirit will not be removed (as in presence) from the earth in the end times, but rather His restraining of evil (which He now does) will be removed, but He will still be here as He is everywhere all the time.
4) He has indwelt (came upon people) in the past. He has empowered various people (warriors, leaders, craftsmen, etc) to accomplish specific tasks.
5) He was revocable prior to the resurrection as He came upon unchanged men and women to empower them to accomplish God's purpose. These people were still in the sin-nature and had not be regenerated.
6) After the resurrection we see that Jesus blew on the disciples and said receive the Holy Spirit. Post resurrection is post Calvary which means salvation is now offered and man is able, by the power of the Holy Spirit, to be regenerated ... to become a new creation (2 Cor. 5:17) and partakers of the New Covenant. They were now indwelt and united with the Holy Spirit in Christ ... a child of God.
7) Jesus told them to wait for the Holy Spirit to come in Power ... to empower them to be both the apostles and the church. Again, here we see that the ever-present Holy Spirit at this time (Pentecost) released His power to empower regenerated man to be the body of Christ on earth.
Hope this helps a little.
Lord Bless,
LT
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Permalink Reply by Seek on
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LOL Uhhh not really. Kinda brings more questions.
It just seems to me that a lot of what David prayed in the Psalms was about God not withdrawing the Holy Spirit from him and to help him from his troubles, etc....and it seems the same that some pray even today. There are times we can feel the Spirit and times we cannot, just as David seemed to have felt. So if it was revocable then and not now, that apparently doesn't affect whether or not we can always feel His presence. And it seems sometimes it comes on and empowers people at specific times still today. So I guess this is what confuses me.
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Yes, the operation of the Holy Spirit past and present are quite similar, with the greatest difference being the permanent indwelling that is accompanied by regeneration.
Note: David was not fearful of losing the feeling, but of actually losing the manifested presence of God in His life. This comment is a form of repentance ... He wanted God and wanted to be in alignment with God, because he was a man after God's own heart.
The Holy Spirit is everywhere all the time (O.T. & N.T.), but not everyone will experience His manifested presence.
Things that can block the experience of His presence:
1) Not being a child of God.
2) Sin (We could break this down into categories, but the realization of sin without true repentance alone is enough).
3) Motives (Many want the cool experience and not really God Himself, because with God comes surrender)
The power of God at work in the lives of an individual (O.T. & N.T.).
Things that can block the experience of His power:
1) Not being a child of God.
2) Sin (We could break this down into categories, but the realization of sin without true repentance alone is enough).
3) Motives (Many want the cool experience and not really God Himself, because with God comes surrender)
4) His power is not displayed for our amusement, but rather for His glory (i.e. the plagues in Egypt). He will work through us when we are surrendered, are in alignment with Him and seeking to do His will for His glory. If we seek the gift or power instead of Him we are wasting our time.
Thus, we can pray as David prayed, but our prayer as a child of God is not about the loss of His indwelling presence, but rather His manifested presence and power to be expressed for His glory. One way of looking at it (poor way, but hopefully makes the point) is we are not like a wizard who learns a new spell or gains a new power that we walk around ready to wield this power at or own whim. We are indwelt by God and He seeks those in whom He can work through for His glory. Even the prophets found in the O.T. did not just walk around giving words of prophecy about this and that ... that spoke as God directed them to speak His words and do His bidding.
Lastly, for the child of God we do not rest on feelings but on the Word of God. Whether a child of God "feels" the Holy Spirit or not the truth remains that He remains in them. If God is not, or rarely, manifested in their life and if there is a lack of God's power and work in them and through them they need to do a spiritual check-up, because God has not changed.
Personal opinion: Most want the presence and power of God for the wrong reason ... it tends to be all about them. I have heard most of the excuses, but I want my family to be saved, I want to make a difference , etc ... The key has to be not my will, but Your will be done. I must not seek the presence and power for the experience, but rather seek God Himself because I love him and want to glorify Him. Motives really do matter and most of us battle selfishness on a regular basis.
I will add one more thing: If I must feel His presence and experience His outward working power to believe I really do not believe. My faith is based on His Word and is enabled by the Holy Spirit. It is because of faith that I can and should experience His presence and power. How many times have we heard people say if God would only do this (demonstration of His power) or if He would only show Himself I would believe ... they are lying to themselves. The Bible says that faith comes by hearing, and this hearing is hearing the Word of God.
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I think you're missing one possibility though. What about those who do want God's will, are not engaging in sin and are saved, but are still be renewed and transformed? They may have trouble understanding exactly how to work with the Holy Spirit or how to deal with these kinds of questions.
I know we don't have to "feel" His presence, yet wouldn't you say that not feeling Him is kinda like sticking a hot needle in your eye? I wish that I could always feel His presence, yet sometimes the cares of the world can get in the way of that for anyone and they may cry like David did, thinking He's abandoned them, just as Jesus cried out "Why have You forsaken me?" And Jesus would've known better than anyone that God never will forsake us. Even the O.T. guaranteed that. Yet there were times David could not "feel" His presence and I think that along with this world, that can cause a lot of anguish in a person.
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There is no secret to working with the Holy Spirit ... one need simply surrender, and nothing less will do if we really want to walk with Jesus. If we are in alignment with God He will work in us and through us according to His good pleasure and will. If we are not in alignment with God we are hindering that work in us and through us (noting the God is sovereign and has the right to override our wills at anytime, but that is not the norm from day to day). Now, I know the Lord is patient and works on those who still struggle with self ... including me, but that does not change the Master Plan which is all about surrendering our lives to Him. As long as we seek to take control of our lives, wanting our will and way, we will hinder the work of God in us and through us.
The truth is most people "do not want to surrender." They want all the good things from God and still want to control their own lives. It just does not work that way.
Regarding feeling Him, the answer is no. David feared losing the Holy Spirit ... we, as children of God, do not have that fear based on the Word of God which is the foundation of our faith. If God did not do one more thing in my life, if I never felt His presence again in this life He is worthy and due my worship and love. We as children must come to the point of having an awe for God, not because of what He has done (though we can appreciate that), but rather in awe of Him and Him alone.
Jesus example is not a good one, for at that moment He was experiencing the weight of the world's sin as He died in our place ... on the cross He was never less than who He is ... God.
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Well I'll have to disagree on this one, because the Word also tells us to "continue in the Word" and then "we will be set free" and other such admonishments. Not everyone "feels" saved from the beginning, nor does a one time reading of the Word break any bonds they have from past. It takes God and the Spirit working through them to break those bonds, whether they're willing to surrender or not. Surrender doesn't make an automatic loss of bondage. Only God can break that off.
I think many often backslide because they don't hear such information and feel they were never saved. They aren't encouraged to allow the Spirit to keep working on them even if they don't feel His presence, but are generally discouraged because they haven't yet grown enough to figure it all out compared to those who were saved many years ago and always raised in the Word.
I know Joyce Meyers talks a lot about her earlier days. She was saved...I do believe that. And she wanted God in her life. But she didn't understand why she still acted the way she did, why she was still being abused, etc.
Abuse and traumas can place strongholds on people so much that only the Spirit working in them will break it off. But until they begin to see that working, they do question if indeed the Spirit is there, if they truly were saved, etc. And the questioning brings it's own form of agony. It's akin to Paul asking "why do I do the things I do"...he was questioning why he does these things...whether it is get irritated, angry, whatever things, when he WANTS to do the will of God. I'm sure he was agonizing over it.
But things such as this had me looking into the Holy Spirit at times, and then when I see two paths from the O.T. and N.T., I wasn't able to figure out what it meant, why the Spirit hadn't yet come when some in the O.T. referred to having the Spirit.
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Note: I said,
Now, I know the Lord is patient and works on those who still struggle with self ... including me, but that does not change the Master Plan which is all about surrendering our lives to Him.
So, what part don't you agree with?
Surrender is the path of God ... that is the goal. Because we are not yet perfected that does not diminish that the goal is perfection. Anything short of surrender is still self seeking my will, and as long as I seek my will there is a spirit (meaning attitude) of rebellion in me.
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Ok...so is this what struggling with self is like then? I mean, I know we're not supposed to be swayed by what we see or what happens to us, but if the Spirit is guiding us, could we still be swayed by such things? I'd love to come to a point where I can see my checkbook overdrawn and just say oh well, God will provide. Instead, I begin to wonder when He will at times, and I worry, like most people. I want to see Him move in a big way, like I'm sure most do, yet I'd much rather just be able to be at peace with whatever happens...that would be preferable, then nothing else would matter. I could just shrug and say oh well and not stress over anything because I was so reliant upon whatever His will is, that the circumstances didn't phase me.
And I've just been reading Psalms a lot lately and relating so much to a lot of what David was crying/praying then and wondering what's the difference then and now. From the prayers, cries, etc., there didn't seem to be any difference on the surface.
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Permalink Reply by Amanda on
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Seek,
You mentioned Joyce. Here's something she wrote:
The Prayer of Consecration
In the prayer of consecration, we dedicate our lives and all that we are to Him. In order for God to use us, we must consecrate ourselves to Him.
When we truly consecrate ourselves to the Lord, we lose the burden of trying to run our own lives. I would rather voluntarily follow God than struggle to get Him to follow me. He knows where He is going, and I know I will reach my destination safely if I allow Him to lead.
I consecrate myself to God in prayer on a regular basis. I say, "Here I am, Lord. I am Yours; do with me as You please." Then sometimes I add, "I hope I like what You choose, Lord, but if I don't, Your will be done and not mine."
Consecration and/or dedication to God is the most important aspect of succeeding at being ourselves. We don't even know what we are supposed to be, let alone know how to become whatever it is. But as we regularly keep our lives on the altar in consecration to God, He will do the work that needs to be done in us, so He may do the work He desires to do through us.
Pray: Lord, I gladly consecrate myself - body, soul and spirit - to You today. Take my life, shape my life, and use my life for Your glory. Amen.
From the book The Confident Woman Devotional by Joyce Meyer. Copyright 2011 by Joyce Meyer. Published by FaithWords. All rights reserved.
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Consecration hasn't been the issue that's plagued me. I don't WANT the burden of trying to run my own life and yet I've worried if God doesn't step in and if I cannot tell if He's running it, I'll just be making all the same mistakes I've always made. That and....just always a "feeling" that I'm not doing enough or not feeling enough or something. Hard to put a finger on. Just this internal "thorn" for lack of a better word. I keep thinking God can use this later for me to help others who've struggled over these issues, but again, that only brings more angst in wanting to feel as if I'm useful "now" rather than later.
The Christian Counselor I've begun seeing said I'm a compulsive thinker (whatever exactly it means LOL), and he says he can definately help me with this. Praying he can, and soon. I do feel God said I won't have no more of those deep depressive pits, but then it goes back to wondering, was it God or my desire speaking?
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For me, it's about weak faith. You mentioned you believe but need help with unbelief. I think I have no unbelief. I believe but struggle to understand and in many areas I have weak faith that seems only to weaken, not grow, but I know I'll never become an unbeliever, for I truly believe in God. So that would be impossible. Losing heart, giving into defeat, having a weakening faith, and even losing faith in some areas close to not having faith in those areas, is not good, but it's not a complete unbelief in any area, at least for me.
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Mine isn't unbelief in God, but unbelief that I'll ever be able to overcome whatever it is holds me down, belief because I can't figure out how to overcome it that He'll give up on me, or already has sometimes. It's those doubts/unbeliefs. Not in God. I believe in Him wholeheartedly. I've seen enough things that I cannot question that. But I question me and where I stand with Him, if I'll be of any use, if He'll make me of any good use, etc.
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