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WHAT IS ARMINIANISM AND CALVINISM
These discussions will be done in an effort to clear up some misunderstanding so we can equip ourselves correctly.
I will give the basics and go a little deep into each system. Roger Olson has written a wonderful book detailing common misconceptions Calvinist hold about Arminians and there are many books also showing how Arminians misunderstand Reformed Theology.
Feel free to jump in.
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Sarah Gardener on
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P.S. I also love how you call the scriptures "sacred" and thus they are!
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Permalink Reply by Sharon Theresa Theil on
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:)
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Linda Ruth,
Exactly! Jacob was 'elected' or chosen to carry the blood line of Jesus. That is all. Calvin used this scripture to 'prove that we are each saved or condemned by some totally arbitrary decree of God i.e., He 'elected' some people to be saved and others to be condemned before the earth was even formed.
The only way that this could be true is for the entire rest of Sacred Scripture is a lie!
Sacred Scripture from Genesis to Revelation puts the location (and temperature) of our eternal resting place exactly where it belongs in our own hands. It is because of our choice, how we live our lives, if we are saved or damned.
Deuteronomy 30:19: "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore CHOOSE LIFE, that both thou and thy seed may live."
Joshua 24:15: "And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, CHOOSE you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."
Psalms 78:37 For their heart was not steadfast with Him, Nor were they faithful in His covenant. 38 But He, [being] full of compassion, forgave [their] iniquity, And did not destroy [them]. Yes, many a time He turned His anger away, And did not stir up all His wrath; 39 For He remembered that they [were] [but] flesh, A breath that passes away and does not come again. 40 How often they provoked Him in the wilderness, [And] grieved Him in the desert! 41 Yes, again and again they tempted God, And limited the Holy One of Israel.
Psalm 119:30, 111, 173: "I have CHOSEN The Way of Truth: Thy Judgments have I laid before me....Thy Testimonies have I taken as an heritage for ever: for They are the rejoicing of my heart....Let Thine hand help me; for I have chosen Thy Precepts."
John 1:12: "But as many as RECEIVED Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name."
Acts 10:34-35: "... Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth Him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with Him."
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning [His] promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
The Gospel teaches that salvation is by grace through faith based upon the redemptive work of our Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus took upon Himself the sins of all mankind by His death on the cross, and His resurrection from the dead provides salvation to all who believe. All who receive the Lord Jesus Christ through an active and love filled faith are born again of the Holy Spirit and thereby become the children of God.
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Permalink Reply by RoyW on
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Sharon,
The verses that you shared are good verses. They speak of our responsibility towards God. What you must believe, though, is that if everyone decides on their own whether or not to accept God's salvation that all must have faith in God. The Armenian believes that God gives everyone just a little bit of faith - just enough to decide whether or not they want to follow Him or reject Him. What do you believe? Does everyone have faith? You could never choose Him without faith. Please explain to me how that works in your soteriology.
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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on
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David,
We give Him praise in everything but our own salvation. There, we are often guilty of taking some of that praise to ourselves. God did not choose me to bear His Gospel message to the masses. He did not choose me to represent Him to kings or presidents. He did not choose me to have wealth. He did choose me to be His own. What is His purpose? He did choose me to present His beautiful Gospel message to children. I could not be more grateful. I must admit that I take absolutely no credit for my salvation. It was His sovereign choice. Everything He does is right. Unto us a Savior has been born. He is Christ the Lord. His sheep know Him and they follow Him. Faith in Him separates us from the rest of the world. I am continually amazed by those who believe they chose to have faith. Without faith it is impossible to please Him or come to Him. Faith is a gift from a sovereign God. Some think that this faith makes a person arrogant or reckless. Nonsense. Real faith humbles a man and causes him to kneel before God his Maker.
Thank you for this wonderful presentation.
Humbled by God,
Roy
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You are welcome my beloved friend and bro.
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Sharon,
I can understand your response but you did not answer my question. I am not the one that wrote the Bible but I am one that can read it. You are only considering those areas that support your own beliefs and not considering that which does not. I need to know how you would answer my question to be able to share with you my convictions on Scripture.
Blessings.
Roy
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Romans 9
Due to popular demand hahaha I see that is time to settle the error that Romans 9 is talking about the selection of nations only and that is has nothing to do with the selection of individuals onto salvation. I was taking a small break from the topic and you will also be glad to hear that after studying Arminianism and Calvinism and being able to debunk Arminianism, but not Calvinism I am now studying a theology that is similar to A.W. Tozer’s, who seemed to have found a middle ground between the two major school of thoughts. So I am not finish learning and seeking out truth primarily through my personal bible study, but also through the writings of God’s servants. People I highly respect seemed to have found that middle ground here such as LT, our sister Carla and our brother Scribe D'Nucov's , but I will see what happens, so far I am sold on WHAT I BELIEVE THE BIBLE IS TEACHING, WHICH ALIGNS CLOSER TO Reformed Theology. :) Roy don't you be avoiding the topic and help me out hahaha
Ok put on your seat belts and don’t get mad at me if the truth debunks your erroneous misunderstanding ahahahaha ok-ok I will be serious now. :)
1. I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, 2. That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart 3. For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: 4. Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; 5. Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.
How some can state that the chapter has nothing to do with salvation of individuals after reading how Paul is directing his appeal for his kinsman is beyond me. He loved them though they rejected him and he will deal with two things that the truth was being confronted with 1. Either that there was no truth in the Divine promise, -- or 2 That Jesus, whom Paul preached, was not the Lord's anointed, who had been especially promised to the Jews. Paul deals with these two issues in what follows. He, however, so handles this subject, as to abstain from all bitterness against the Jews, that he might not infuriate their minds; and yet he concedes to them nothing to the injury of the gospel, for he allows to them their privileges in such a way, as not to detract anything from Christ. "If this be the doctrine of the law and the Prophets, how comes that the Jews so stubbornly reject it?" And further, it was everywhere known, that all that he had up till now spoken of the law of Moses, and of the grace of Christ, was more disliked by the Jews, than that the faith of the Gentiles should be assisted by their consent. It was therefore necessary to remove this obstacle, lest it should impede the course of the gospel.
1. The truth I say in Christ, etc. As it was an opinion entertained by most that Paul was, as it were, a sworn enemy to his own nation, and as it was suspected somewhat even by the household of faith, as though he had taught them to forsake Moses, he adopts a preface to prepare the minds of his readers, before he proceeds to his subject, and in this preface he frees himself from the false suspicion of evil will towards the Jews.
2. That I have great sorrow, etc But the perdition of the Jews caused very great anguish to Paul, though he knew that it happened through the will and providence of God. We hence learn that the obedience we render to God's providence does not prevent us from grieving at the destruction of lost men,
3. For I could wish, etc. He could not have expressed a greater ardor of love than by what he testifies here; for that is surely perfect love which refuses not to die for the salvation of a friend. But there is another word added, anathema, which proves that he speaks not only of temporal but of eternal death; and he explains its meaning when he says, from Christ, for it signifies a separation. And what is to be separated from Christ, but to be excluded from the hope of salvation? It was then a proof of the most ardent love that Paul hesitated not to wish for himself that condemnation which he saw impending over the Jews, in order that he might deliver them. The chief thing is that the Jews are here regarded as they were adorned with those singular tokens, by which they were distinguished from the rest of mankind. For God had by his covenant so highly exalted them, that by their fall, the faithfulness and truth of God himself seemed also to fail in the world: for that covenant would have become void, the stability of which was promised to be perpetual, as long as the sun and moon should shine in heaven. (Psalm 72:7) So that the abolition of this would have been more strange, than the sad and disastrous confusion of the whole world. It was not therefore a simple and exclusive regard for men: for though it is better that one member should perish than the whole body; it was yet for this reason that Paul had such a high regard for the Jews, because he viewed them as bearing the character, and, as they commonly say, the quality of an elect people; and this will appear more evident, as we shall soon see, from what follows. Though the Jews had disowned Paul, he yet concealed not the fact, that he had sprung from that nation, the election of whom was still strong in the root, though the branches had withered.
4. Who are Israelites, etc. Here the reason is now more plainly given, why the destruction of that people caused him so much anguish, that he was prepared to redeem them by his own death, namely because they were Israelites. In like manner this anxiety took hold on Moses, when he desired that he should be blotted out of the book of life, rather than that the holy and chosen race of Abraham should be reduced to nothing. (Exodus 32:32). And though by their ingratitude they rendered themselves unworthy to be esteemed on account of these gifts of God, yet Paul continued justly to respect them, that he might teach us that the ungodly cannot so contaminate the good endowments of God, but that they always deserve to be praised and admired: at the same time, those who abuse them acquire thereby nothing but a greater humiliation.
The whole drift of Paul's discourse is to this purpose, -- that though the Jews by their defection had produced an ungodly divorce between God and themselves, yet the light of God's favor was not wholly extinguished, according to what he had also said in Romans 3:3. They had indeed become unbelievers and had broken his covenant; but still their treachery had not rendered void the faithfulness of God; for he had not only reserved for himself some remnant seed from the whole multitude, but had as yet continued, according to their hereditary right, to spring a Church among them. But though they had already stripped themselves of these ornaments, so that it availed them nothing to be called the children of Abraham, yet as there was a danger, lest through their fault the majesty of the gospel should be depreciated among the Gentiles, Paul does not regard what they deserved, but covers their baseness and disgraceful conduct by throwing veils over them, until the Gentiles were fully persuaded, that the gospel had flowed to them from the celestial fountain, from the sanctuary of God, from an elect nation.
5. Whose are the fathers, etc. It is indeed of some importance to be descended from saints and men beloved of God, since God promised to the godly fathers mercy with regard to their children, even to thousand generations, and especially in the words addressed to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as we find in Genesis 17:4, and in other passages. It matters not, that this by itself, when separated from the fear of God and holiness of life, is vain and useless: for we find the same to have been the case as to worship and glory, as it is evident everywhere in the prophets. But, as God dignified these things, when joined with attention to godliness, with some degree of honor, he justly enumerated them among the privileges of the Jews. They are indeed said to be the heirs of the promises for this very reason, -- because they descended from the fathers. (Acts 3:25) From whom, is Christ, etc. They who apply this to the fathers, as though Paul meant only to say that Christ had descended from the fathers, have no reason to allege: for his object was to close his account of the pre-eminence of the Jews by this praise/encomium, -- that Christ proceeded from them; for it was not a thing to be lightly esteemed, to have been united by a natural relationship with the Redeemer of the world.
The first 5 verses. :) Using my personal interpretation and editing Calvin’s notes into today’s more practical language. After this long endeavor I will also break down chapter nine as Arminians understand it.
Blessings family.
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David,
I am convinced that the reason different ones maintain that Romans 9 does not apply to the Gentiles is simply because they don't want this to apply to their God. They see their God much differently than Romans 9 presents Him. I can understand this position since what appears to be is that which is unfair. I hear them saying things like, "Maybe your God will predestine some to hell but my God would never do such a thing." The problem I see them having is that their faith is in their own creation of what is fair and unfair rather than in God Who knows all things and determines according to His wisdom, knowledge, justice and righteousness. They allow their minds to determine God's nature rather than Scripture.
There is no way Romans 9 only refers to the nation of Israel and not to mankind as a whole. I know you are going to get to these verses but these make that claim nonsense:
Ro 9:22-26
22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath — prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25 As he says in Hosea:
"I will call them 'my people' who are not my people;
and I will call her 'my loved one' who is not my loved one,"
26 and,
"It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them,
'You are not my people,'
they will be called 'sons of the living God.'" NIVWhat I am reading here with my own limited understanding is that even Paul did not completely understand God's position of election but knew it was part of His nature. I don't know of a person that would say that they completely understand God's purpose in election. But only those who refuse to accept Scripture would deny its reality. God does elect according to His wisdom. That truth cannot be denied. God did elect Jacob over Esau. That was not an isolated case. That is His method of determining the salvation of those that belong to Him. To deny that denies Scripture. I could not ever take the position that God does not elect. I can take the position that I don't understand that or even find it fair in my own mind. But how can a person ever take the position of something that is so clear in Scripture?
One will then ask, "Then why does God tell mankind to choose Him?" I could never explain that to the satisfaction of the Arminian. It does appear that man is being told to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. How is that possible if faith is a gift from God? I think I know but I cannot be absolutely sure and could never convince the Arminian. However, I could never deny that which Scripture clearly teaches. On one hand an individual is commanded to turn to God. On the other hand, Jesus tells us that no man can come to God unless He is drawn by the Father.
I know all that fits together but the place to start is not making claims that deny Holy Scripture. In my opinion we should take a position of seeking to understand God and His plan rather than denying this part of Scripture. How is it possible to read Scripture like the following and take the position that pre-determined election is not a part of God's plan?
Eph 1:4-6; 11-14
4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.
11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession — to the praise of his glory. NIVI can understand the position of saying I don't understand verses like the above. But, how do you take the position that predetermined election is not a part of His plan? That is what amazes me.
It was God that purposed and planned all creation. He clearly tells us that He does not do things like we would do it. Yet, we are determined to make Him agree with our finite minds in the way He would create His family. "God would never do something like that," says the doubter.
God has everything planned out to the very infinite details. He has left nothing to chance. He does give me a little latitude but not much. Would you call that being a puppet? I don't think it even comes close. Do I desire that which God has for me? Absolutely! Do I want Him to turn my outcome over to myself? Absolutely not!
On another forum I commented on being speechless in the view of His eternal plan. Then, David puts up this song from a singer called "Speechless." I may not understand everything or even anything He does. However, I believe Him and trust Him. I have asked Him to take my life and not leave it up to myself because every one of my decisions mess things up. I don't know why I asked Him to take my life. I just know that I did. Leave everything up to me and I guarantee a big mess. I don't have the wisdom or understanding to know what or how to do. I need Him desperately. I have reached the point in my life that I know I must proceed but I don't want to since I know every one of my decisions are silly. I want Him to do.
Father, when it comes to the salvation of my soul, please do not leave even one detail up to me. Do not listen to anything I have to say but see that in my heart that I love You and believe in You. My emotions are moved by Your presence. I am amused by the claims of mankind that You are not You. I am amused by those who claim they have it all figured out. I know Your ways are so much higher than mine that You must work on my mind for me to understand You. I understand so little. Ignore every boast of mine. Save me from my self.
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Does the individual or God decide?
Ro 9:6-21
6 It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." 8 In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring. 9 For this was how the promise was stated: "At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son."
10 Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad — in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls — she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13 Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'" 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
NIV
I have just again read several objections and answers to Romans nine from those who do not believe completely in the total sovereignty of God. The main objection I find is the need for us to justify God’s decision. “Surely, we conclude, God does not determine some to live in heaven for eternity while determining that some will live in hell for all eternity. Surely, this must be the choice of man and not that of God.” That, in no way, seems fair to us. An example of an objection is as follows:
If we rather resolve that Jesus is our definitive picture of God, and that this picture cannot be placed alongside of or qualified by any other, then we must conclude that there is something amiss with the deterministic interpretation of Romans 9. For Christ reveals, and the biblical witness confirms, that God’s love is universal, his love is impartial, his love is kind, and his love desires all to be saved. http://www.gregboyd.org/essays/essays-predestination-free-will/how-...
Why would God harden one individual but awaken another individual’s heart to His love and mercy? The answer has to be one of the following:
1) He doesn’t, or
2) We don’t know the reason.
The first answer just can’t be right. The Passage is clear and easy to understand but we feel we must interpret it to be saying something it is not saying since it does not agree with our understanding of “free will.” Some responses from this Passage state that what the Passage is really saying is that this is not what God has done. I read from some who say that it sounds like this is what God has done but it can’t be since this contradicts His nature.
Next, you will be saying that God must first come to me to check out His actions before He does them. Before God does something, the objector says, He must first check with me to make sure this fits in with my understanding of His nature or what I believe should be His nature. We become absolutely guilty of the worst charges levied against us by the atheists. We make our God something of our own creation. We determine His nature. We make Him to be what we think He should be. He becomes a work of our own feeble minds.
When we speak of God’s nature, we must include Romans nine and all Scripture that absolutely tells us exactly the same things. I think it is time to stop presenting to our world a God that is politically correct. We are limited or should be in our presentations of Him. We simply cannot exclude Romans nine from His nature. The reason we reject Romans nine is simply because we want our God to be the loving God we want Him to be – One that would never do anything we perceive as being unfair.
That, right there, is the problem – your perception. You must include Romans nine in your perception. You cannot discount it simply because it doesn’t meet the expectations of your understanding. You that do this, please explain to me Noah’s flood. God destroyed every man, woman, boy, girl and all babies except the eight. He continues to do this today even though it has not been a worldwide destruction since. He sends destruction on huge masses of people - earthquakes, tsunamis, hurricanes, tornadoes, volcanoes, floods, not even considering the masses destroyed by war and technological errors. Please explain these disasters to me. These disasters have absolutely nothing to do with those who have been crushed by them. We have written books on this desperately attempting to pacify the world in the understanding of our God. How could a loving God be connected to these things?
The world says to us, “If this is what God is like, I don’t want any part of Him.” Well, there He is. None of us has any guarantee that we will be around this world tomorrow. There is only one thing I can tell this critically weak and vulnerable world is that He will save every single person that calls on His Name. He will save them from their sins and if I were them I would turn to Him and be saved. That is it; we have nothing else to say.
How can we then say, “God is love”? That is easy. The Bible says He is. Therefore, He is. He is love, righteous, holy, truth, just and fair. But, He will never meet our definitions and expectations. Why would a loving God allow our loved one to die of cancer? How could a loving God allow my child to die? How could a loving God allow this or that to happen? I’m sorry, I just don’t have the answers. My father was murdered. How do I begin to answer that one? On top of that, He requires me to forgive that individual who was determined to not be responsible for his actions and continues to live in freedom.
How? I trust Him. I know what He does is right. I accept the God of the Bible. I will never dismiss Him. Because of Him I will once again be reunited with my father. Because of Him I will live with my family throughout eternity. All of them are saved. I don’t sugarcoat God to them. God is sovereign. He does what He wills to do. Rather than trying to first understand Him, we should begin with accepting Him. I am amazed by those who attempt to explain Him away simply because He does not meet with their expectations.
Merry Christmas and I really mean that,
You better read this one fast as I might delete it. I don't enjoy offending people.
Roy
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