WHAT IS ARMINIANISM AND CALVINISM

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by RoyW on October 28, 2010 at 8:06pm

Sojourner,

Your cold rationality was the stronger inclination and therefore controlled your choice. The idea that a personal desire is the stronger inclination is not necessarily correct. For instance: I may have a personal desire to eat the oversized cheeseburger but know the salad is the better choice. My strongest inclination will win the battle. My common sense may be the strongest inclination and therefore I will resist. However, my desire for that cheeseburger may be so great I fall to the temptation. Therefore, that was the strongest inclination. This is the point that Sproul is making: the strongest inclination determines your choice. Whatever your choice, that was the strongest inclination. Does that make sense?

Roy

Permalink Reply by sojourner on October 28, 2010 at 8:40pm

Hi Roy.
Were agreed then that personal desire is not always the determining factor in personal choice.
As I previously stated,there are various internal and external factors which determine choice,although even some of those factors can be a matter of choice when considering options.
As I also stated,the term free-will can be misleading as our own volition is restricted to our awareness of actual choices and what factors are present in determining choices.So our volition is free only within the boundaries of actual choices and the determining factors,which themselves can be a matter of choice.
If by 'strongest inclination' you refer to the sum total of various factors,which act together to inform decission,then I agree.
However,none of the above takes away from free-will as I define it.

We will get there brother : )

Sojourner.

Permalink Reply by RoyW on October 28, 2010 at 8:51pm

Sojourner,

The idea of the strongest inclination is a simple concept. It is basically stating that whatever motivated you to make the choice you made, that was the strongest inclination. Yes, personal desire may not the determining factor in your choices. It may certainly be at times but will not always control the decision. That second helping of turkey and dressing at Thanksgiving gets me every time. My common sense becomes overwhelmed by my personal desire and I fall to that delicious turkey.

The Bible says that there is nothing good in fallen man. Therefore there will be no inclination to choose the good. That indicates there will need to be an intervention by an overwhelming power to cause us to choose the good. In this case, your free will is overcome. That is the concept of irresistible grace. You choose the good due to His grace (His working within you to bring about His purpose).

Roy

Permalink Reply by sojourner on October 28, 2010 at 9:01pm

I'm with you on the turkey! : )
Ok.Hope you don't mind me asking a question.
Can you not think of anytime that you choose the good over the bad?
I know I can,and that's not a boast because I made plenty of really wrong choices.

Permalink Reply by RoyW on October 28, 2010 at 9:16pm

That's the rub. Why did you choose the good so to speak? Was it out of goodness within you? Or, was there another purpose for choosing the good. This might include helping out a neighbor, giving to the poor, voting in an election, etc. It could be some other motivational cause contributing to your apparently choosing good. For instance, how would it be possible to choose God without faith. The question is the origin of that faith.

This is an excellent discussion but I'm struggling to keep my eyes open. I am going to check out for tonight but will pick it up later.

Bless you, brother,
Roy

Permalink Reply by Carla on October 28, 2010 at 9:32pm

Hello Roy and Sojourner,

I've been following your friendly conversation...
The issue of how we were made in God's image continues to come up for me.. Roy, I'm wondering what you think of that..

Blessings, Carla

Permalink Reply by RoyW on October 29, 2010 at 3:20am

Sojourner,

Please forgive me but I am just trying to get the reply button back on the next page.

Roy

Permalink Reply by RoyW on October 29, 2010 at 6:29am

Carla,

We were created in the image of God. I'm not sure what you are asking. God had a plan. His plan included a people that could think and choose. That is the idea of free will which I believe in. However, I do think, that because of the fall man no longer has the power to choose good. In order to choose good, he must be good.

However, God has given man incentive to choose good to enable man to live on this planet. He has given us His Law. The Law was not intended to save man from His sin but to bring civility on the earth to produce an environment for His plan to continue. The flood testifies to His power and determination for His plan. We still abide by the Law today. However, His appeal to follow His Law is based on our own selfish will. We are encouraged to choose good for our benefit and the benefit of our society. I personally want a nation that will follow the God's Law. I want a free nation. I want liberty. But, is that the force that drives me? That desire is there but that is not the force that drives me. If slavery will bring us to God, my flesh will resist it, but my Spirit welcomes it.

God has willed to restore us to Him and have understanding of His purpose. This has absolutely nothing to do with making a robot out of us as some would say. In fact, the result is an exact opposite one. I see a redeemed man with the ability to think, to have fellowship, to reach a plateau in Him that He actually enjoys. His plan brings that about.

God's appeal to man to obey His Law is for the good of the people. Grace on the other hand awakens us to knowing Him. To know Him means to communicate with Him. I don't understand why the fall was necessary but I am seeking to understand that. I do believe it was vital to the outcome of His plan. It has to be.

God predestining to salvation creates one that He desires. This is the purpose of His will.

Eph 1:11

11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, NIV

To understand God's plan, look at the end result. That was His plan all along. What He has done is necessary for the fulfillment of that plan.

Man being created in His image was a part of that ultimate plan.

Roy

Permalink Reply by Carla on October 29, 2010 at 1:07pm

Hi Roy,

This is a busy weekend for me with my family.. i will take time to look at this likely on Monday to unwrap it with you.

I just wanted to you to know I wasn't ignoring or forgetting.. just lots to do..
ps--Thank you for your prayers brother, I am feeling almost back to normal.
Blessiings, Carla

Permalink Reply by sojourner on October 29, 2010 at 12:52pm

Hi Roy.
Thanks for correcting the reply link.I tried with a reply but it didnt work,and so deleted it.
Why did I choose the good,and was it from the good within me?
First of all,for me to understand the good means that I was already morally aware.I knew the difference between right and wrong.
Next,there are different reasons why I choose the good,but one of those reasons was because it made me feel good.If I was totally void of good why would I appreciate the reward of feeling good,for doing good?
Adam was created in the image of God (Genesis 1:26),but because of his sin he evoked the curse of sin," thou shalt surely die",or,"dying thou shalt die"(Genesis 2:17).Through Adam,sin entered the world,and through sin,death (Romans 5:12).
To be made in the image of God was to be created immortal,pure in spirit, with moral conscience and the ability to choose between right and wrong.
However,that purity of spirit became defiled as sin entered the heart of man.He lost that purity and his nature was defiled,and could no longer fellowship with God who is pure.Dying physically,and dead (separated) spiritually,with no possible means (for man) of reconciling with God.
Although the nature of man had been corrupted/defiled,the evidence of originally being created in God's image exists in our moral conscience (although sullied) and volition (although limited).
Consider Noah as righteous (Genesis 7:1),or Job (Job 1:8),or Lot who was saved from the destruction of Sodom,to name but a few.These were sinful men but not totally given to their sinful nature's.
Because of man's sinful nature,man cannot choose God.God chooses man : )
This may sound like I'm contradicting myself,but I will explain futher on,brother.

Look forward to your thoughts on this Roy.God bless.

Sojourner.

Permalink Reply by RoyW on October 30, 2010 at 4:21am

Sojourner,

I basically agree with what you have said. Even though Adam was created in the image of God, initially he did not understand or was not cognizant of evil. After the fall, he certainly was still morally conscience. He still could choose between right and wrong. God often presents the moral responsibility to man to choose that which is right. "Choose you this day," Choose life," etc. Without that, there would be no life left upon this earth.

Man is still in the image of God in this sense: he is a rational being with the ability to choose right and wrong based on what will benefit him the most. You and I are in agreement here.

Your basic summation that man cannot choose God because of his nature, I believe is in harmony with Scripture.

I do believe that God saved before Jesus came. God has always had a remnant. Noah obviously had faith. Job had faith. There were heroes of the faith as described in Hebrews 11. I do believe God had to intervene on their behalf.

Heb 11:13-16

13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth. 14 People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15 If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 Instead, they were longing for a better country — a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them. NIV

However, I believe we are in agreement on our view of man. Where I would part with those who believe that man has free will is in his ability to choose or come to faith in God on his own. God appeals to man to choose but He does not appeal to them on the basis of their pure goodness.

As Christians we often get in the flesh. Christ commands us to come into alignment with Him. That call convicts my heart, I recognize His voice, and I best obey. He disciplines those He loves.

You have me looking forward to your further explanations. I am enjoying your posts.

Roy

Permalink Reply by sojourner on October 30, 2010 at 5:55pm

Hi Roy.
Well,so far it looks like we are in broad agreement,and although there may be difficult issue's ahead,I'm really enjoying this.
Man cannot choose God,because in the most obvious sense,the created cannot choose the Creator:

Isaiah 64:8 " But now,O LORD,thou art are father,we are the clay,and thou our potter;and we all are the work of thy hand."

We are 'all' chosen by Father God,and 'all' are the work of His hand,including those in the world which deny Him.
As we have all been chosen by God to be born into the Kingdom of this world,in the material/physical sense,we have also all been chosen by God,to be born into His kingdom,in the spiritual sense.To help illustrate this:

Luke 14:16-24 " Then said he unto him,A certain man made a great supper,and bade many:17)And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden,Come;for all things are now ready.18)And they all with one consent began to make excuse.The first said unto him.I have bought a piece of ground,and I must needs go and see it:I pray thee have me excused.19)And another said,I have bought five yoke of oxen,and I go to prove them:I pray thee have me excused.20)And another said,I have married a wife,and therefore cannot come.21)So that servant came,and shewed his lord these things.Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant,Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city,and bring in hither the poor,and the maimed,and the halt,and the blind.22)And the servant said,Lord it is done as thou hast commanded,and yet there is room.23)And the Lord said unto the servant,Go out into the highways and hedges,and compel them to come in,that my house may be filled.24)For I say unto you,That none of these men which were bidden shall taste of my supper."

God called out to all that would come,and so all were called.However,not all those called accepted the invitation,at which God was angry at their rejection of His Son.
So then,none can choose salvation for themselves,but all are called of God.However,being called of God is not a surety of salvation as the calling can be rejected,even though 'compelled'(v23),to accept.

Going to leave it there Roy,as I would like your views on the above,first.

Untill then,God bless : )

Sojourner.

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