WHAT IS ARMINIANISM AND CALVINISM

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by RoyW on October 26, 2010 at 4:46am

Sojourner,

I love that name. My son wrote a song entitled "My Sojourn" which I have instructed that will be sung at my funeral. "My Sojourn" describes how I picture myself in this world. About the Calvinism and Armenianism issue. I agree with you about taking either to the extreme. Years ago I was labeled a four-point Calvinist - the one point I struggled with was limited atonement. To the Calvinist camp I was not Calvinistic enough. To the Armenian camp, I was labeled a hyper-Calvinist. The doctrines of grace are very difficult to understand. While man did have the ability to choose in the Garden, he lost that ability through sin. God identified the result as death. I don't see the dead man with the ability to choose. Why did He ever make that tree of knowledge in the first place? Since He knew man would eat of it, why not just not create it? In that scenario man would not have the choice to choose disobedience and rebellion.

I can't explain God's thinking in the matter. It is just too far over my head. On one hand He demands that man turn from their sin and repent and then on the other He tells us that man is incapable of choosing good. On the one He says that He prefers all men to be saved, but then on the other He lets us know that is not possible. Man is inherently evil. It seems to me that we are getting worse. Here in America we have people running around pretending to be righteous while authorizing the murder on thousands and thousands of innocent babies. We are murderers and I see no end in sight. We have now reached the point where we are describing the rebellion of sexual sin as normal. We are disgraceful.

I personally see no nope other than God saving a remnant by His grace. I believe that is what He is doing. How can people not see the evil all around us. I believe one needs to be born-again by His grace which is nothing from ourselves but completely from Him. I believe all of salvation can be credited to God. I cannot see another way.

However, all my friends are mostly Armenian. Some have accepted some of the doctrines of grace but most just grin at me when I speak of them. I have no choice but to live and work with Armenians. I go to an Armenian church. I have never had an argument with any of them over the doctrines of grace. I just go silent. Over the years I have found it does no good to argue. God has to reveal these things to us.

God bless you Sojourner, you got my name.

Roy

Permalink Reply by sojourner on October 26, 2010 at 1:39pm

Hi Roy,and thankyou for your reply.
I agree with you.Although our views may differ on some doctrine,we are brothers in Christ,and as such,our aim should be to learn from one another in the spirit of love,peace and understanding,which pleases God and is for our benifit.
I believe (as you do) we are saved by grace alone,and that there was nothing that we could have done to merit the gift of life we now share in Christ.I will go further to say that for any to believe that by good works they can merit that which is given without merit,is to despise the gift which was bought at a great price.Christ crucified.
I also believe I was guided to the foot of the Cross by the Spirit of God,and witnessed something of the purity of the sacrifice of Jesus the Lamb of God,demonstrating fully His unconditional love for me,in place of me,that I through His sacrifice might receive eternal life in Him.
So far I think we agree : ) Were we might not agree is that I believe I was presented with a choice of either accepting or rejecting God's gift for me.Not at that point though,because even though something inside me was fighting against accepting Jesus Christ as my Lord and Saviour,the Spirit was stronger and I could no longer resist.Praise God!
I had a long journey to the Cross and believe the Spirit was prompting me along the way,but I resisted each time.I was very stubborn and lost in my rebellion,but I would never have denied Him.I did believe,but even though I believed,I still rejected His gift of love for me.What would have happened if my life had been cut short before I actually accepted? I have no doubt I would have been lost forever.What would have happened if the Spirit had stopped prompting me? Maybe completely lost in my sin.
Now I understand that Calvinists may have a problem with the word 'accept.' I don't believe it means that I have in anyway been instrumental in my salvation.There was no work on my part.For example,if a father offers his child a gift and the child accepts,does that imply that the child has done anything to somehow deserve the gift? Of course not,the child simply has to accept.
You mention that man lost the ability to choose,because of the fall.Although I believe the fall separated man from God,I don't know that I can agree that the fall removed man's ability to make choices.I believe because we were created in the image of God,all of us are born with the law of God written on our hearts.We do have a sense of right and wrong,and are then presented with moral choices.Of course we fail,but not always.However I do agree that these are dark days,and perhaps getting darker.The days of Noah? Maybe that's another discussion : )
Roy,I think I've written enough for now and would be really interested in your views.I know I hav'nt presented any Scripture,as yet,but I thought it may be good for you to get a sense of where I'm coming from first.

God bless you brother.

Sojourner.

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on October 27, 2010 at 8:43am

Sojourner,

Did God intend evil?

God did not create evil directly, but if God did not will for evil to exist it wouldn't, so indirectly God willed evil to be. God created an intelligent being that is able to reason and to choose when He created angels and humans. We used our intelligence and ability to reason to choose evil, but God was very aware of that, yet He allowed it. He could have created all of us as we will be, in a glorified state, where we can still choose, but we are not able to sin.

>>Was man created without the ability to make choices, even though man was created in the image of God?

Free will is simply elective power. In my opinion no one in the world has free will. You do not and I do not. Only God has free will. We have the ability to choose from our heart's desires or inclinations. We choose according to the inclinations and desires of our heart, but we do not have the ability to choose something spontaneously or without intent or inclination. Only God has that ability. Everything I choose, I choose according to my strongest inclination, so that my choice has a cause. Free will means to freely choose something without outside influences, but that is not true of human beings. We always choose according to our strongest inclination otherwise you would have an effect without a cause.

In his controversy with Erasmus, who defended free will, Luther frankly stated that free will is a fiction, a name which covers no reality, for it is not in man's power to think well or ill, since all events occur by necessity.

You see before we are saved our will was slaved to our fallen nature. We were not free to overcome sin or to choose God.

Once we become born again, we belong to God and our freedom to choose according to the inclinations of our heart are always subject to God's good pleasure and He has every right to intervene in our lives and He does.

Check this vid out and tell me what you think porfavor.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5447393660509611469#

Brother ask away. We love questions and you have a great attitude I think we can have meaningful exchanges.

Blessing to you my bro.

Permalink Reply by sojourner on October 27, 2010 at 11:27am

Hi David.
Thanks for your reply,and the video link.I will watch the video once it fully downloads,but will comment on some of your reply for now.
The question on evil is a tough one and can be very difficult for people to grasp,but here's my thoughts on it:
God did not create evil because God cannot create evil,as He is Holy and pure in love and goodness.A Kingdom divided against itself cannot stand.
Evil is not a created 'something' but rather a term used to describe the absense of good,just as 'dark' is not a created 'something' but a word which simply describes the absense of light.
I believe the origin of evil can be found in the rebellion of Satan and perhaps the first lie "I can be as God," hence the title 'the father of lies.'
As a result of this rebellion Satan became evil by nature (separate from God,as darkness is separate from light),excluded himself,was cast out,separated from the presence of God,because God is Holy,pure and completely separate from that which is contrary to His nature.Satan had become dark and darkness cannot exist in light.It's completely impossible.Flick the light switch on and what happens?
Makes me wonder why some deluded people believe the Kingdom of darkness can be stronger than the Kingdom of light.Pure fallacy! : )
So then,the question:Did God intend this evil? The question is,did God intend Satan's rebellion and then for Satan in his rebellion to help cause the fall of man?
Now you make a very good point by stating that if God did not will for this evil,then this evil would not exist.David maybe you should edit this point out and give me an easier one :( Lol!
Ok,here's a question in response: For us,where does evil originate and what exactly is sin?
If I manipulate circumstances whereby people will sin,am I free from guilt or am I (being the instigator) just as guilty,if not more so?
I know with all my heart that God is pure in righteousness,love and justice and in Him there is no fault,but for me to suppose that God has willed the fall of man,presents (for me) theological difficulties.

I will stop short here my brother,as I would like your thoughts on my comments so far.

Many thanks and God bless.

Sojourner.

Permalink Reply by RoyW on October 27, 2010 at 2:40pm

Sojourner,

Great questions and I know David will get to them. Let me ask you a question. If I create something that brings disaster, who is ultimately responsible for the disaster? This is an unending question, but the thing is, God does not shy from taking responsibility for His creation.

Let me give an illustration: who is or are responsible for nuclear bombs. Einstein was at least partially responsible for pointing out that enriched uranium could be used to set off a chemical reaction that would result in a huge explosion that no one within a certain radium could survive. Scientists came together in the Manhattan Project to refine the development of Uranium for this purpose. Is Einstein responsible? What about the scientists? Actually, I would lay the blame on Roosevelt who sanctioned the project to refine the bomb and make it usable. Then, it was Truman who actually gave the orders to deploy the bomb.

Ask the people of Hiroshima if the bomb was evil. Was it evil? It really depends on your perspective. Was Roosevelt evil? What about Truman? How about the other scientists? Was the bomb evil? That one can never be answered. Some would definitely say it was intended for good but others would swear that it was evil. We do know that it slaughtered many innocent people but saved many more innocent people in the process. Are you a philosopher? These are certainly things to consider.

The Scripture tells us:

Ro 8:28-30

28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. NIV

What was intended for evil towards us, God works to the good. It appears to me that evil is relative to your perspective. I think Christians worry too much today about the responsibility of evil. God is certainly not afraid of it or taking responsibility for His creation. According to His perspective, Creation is good. According to yours (as I read it) some of it is good, some of it is not so good.

Was Pharaoh evil? God tells us that He hardened His heart for a purpose. What was that purpose? Joseph's brothers sought to sell him as a slave. Was that evil or was that God's plan?

Ge 50:19-20
19 But Joseph said to them, "Don't be afraid. Am I in the place of God? 20 You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives. NIV

Is suffering good or evil? What about temptations? Are diseases evil? We easily understand that God uses all these evils (?) for good. Were the fiery trials evil or were they good? What about the stonings, crucifixions, beheadings, stake burnings, that the Christians suffered? Were they evil? The results were an exploding church.

1 Pe 1:6-7
6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. 7 These have come so that your faith — of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire — may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed. NIV

I say, have faith in God. Do not question His creation nor His plan. Give Him glory in all of it. You are not offending Him by giving Him credit for His creation. He made it just the way it is. This is still His plan. Everything is going to come to pass just exactly as He has said it would. I personally don't buy the Plan B idea. I have to go along with David on this one. The end result of His creation is a family that will live with Him throughout all of eternity. You can have complete trust in Him that everything He does is right. Sometimes you do have to have faith. He will do some things you will never be able to understand or explain to others (at least in this life). You must have faith in His plan. You are a part of that plan. This has to do with God's sovereign will. I just don't believe anything can happen outside of His sovereign will.

However, if this is hard or just too blunt, ignore it. Who sends the trials? Trials are evil (at least we think so when going through them). Blessed be the Lord God Almighty Whose plan is still right on target.

Roy

Permalink Reply by sojourner on October 27, 2010 at 7:14pm

Hi Roy.
A good post and you have provided plenty for me to think on,but maybe it would be helpfull for me to clarify how I view things.

"God is light and in Him is no darkness at all"(1 john 1:5).God is all good and all that He created was "very good"(Gen'1:31),and His intentions for all He created was for the good.
Every single thing that is from God is good,but when sin entered the world that which was meant for good became corrupt (physically and spiritually).
From the fall,mankind was under the curse of death.Born dying physically and born dead spiritually (separated from God),with absolutely no means (of itself),to reconcile itself with God.The nature of man had become dark and it is impossible for darkness to reconcile with light.
What is impossible for man,is possible for God,and God in His foreknowledge (of the fall) had a plan for the salvation of man,to reconcile man to Himself once more.
Of course the plan was Christ crucified.That God Himself would become man,to take upon Himself the curse,removing man from under its penalty as only God alone could do.
From Genesis to revelation we can see the outworking of this plan,and how God uses the plans of evil,to confound the evil and work for the good! Amen!
Now the examples you provide such as that of Joseph's,are great examples of how God will turn the plans of evil on their head for the good,and to His glory.Often we can mistake a blessing as a curse,and a curse as a blessing! We need eyes to see : )
Now the question you pose is this:Did God actually intend these evil plans?
My answer is no,but because He had foreknowledge of them he turned them to His advantage and used them for His own good purpose.

My questions to you is:
How can God who is pure in goodness,righteousness and is light,intend evil?
How can God intend something which contradicts His very nature?

Roy,I hope my reply (so far) answers some of the questions you pose,however if you would prefer me to give a more point by point response I will.

Thankyou brother,and untill next time,God bless.

Sojourner.

"now where did I leave those headache pills? "

Permalink Reply by RoyW on October 28, 2010 at 1:36am

Sojourner,

As I read your post, I must say that I agree with you. I don't believe God intends evil, I believe He intends good. I guess I do believe that evil came as a result of His creation. I don't blame God for that. I see no other way for Him to accomplish His plan for us, His children. (Can you imagine us trying to think of a way to change His plan?)

I know we would all agree that our God is a good God. Everything He does is right. Our faith is in Him and not in the philosophies of this world. Our faith in Christ is worth far more than tons of pure gold. It is priceless. That faith gains for us an eternal life with Him.

Roy

Permalink Reply by sojourner on October 28, 2010 at 1:30pm

Amen,Roy.
God is so good and I will never blame Him for the global (or my personal) troubles.It's really tough sometimes but I've found that if I trust in Him (during the storm),I can sometimes see His guiding hand leading me through to the other end.

"can you imagine us trying to think of a way to change His plan?"

I think we try unawares at times : ( How often have I stepped out of God's will for my life and walked into a brick wall? I don't know, but it hurts : ( Of course the enemy of God will try to hinder the plan of God for us,and we need to be watchfull for the snares and the pitfalls.
Yes our faith is precious,and more precious than the riches this world has to offer.
There is so much we agree on Roy,and maybe we can learn more from each other,and others here, as these discussions go on.
I have listened to the video David provided and will share my thoughts on the free-will issue later.

God bless,Roy.

Sojourner.

Permalink Reply by RoyW on October 29, 2010 at 3:19am

Sojourner,

These are really good questions. My answers are as I see them. I think sometimes I might come across as I want everyone to think as I do. I do want everyone to understand how powerful God is and the power He uses in the salvation of a soul. I believe all Creation is centered around that event. The salvation experience is the crowning event of Creation.

God is good and was already full of glory before He ever made man. God was complete but it appears to me that He wanted a family. He wants to share His glory. He knew the sacrifice that would have to be made (more than just the cross) but still created man. The words "so loved" had to come from God Himself.

Roy

Permalink Reply by sojourner on October 28, 2010 at 5:50pm

Hi David.
Getting to reply to the latter part of your post,at last.
I watched the R.C.Sproul video,although I have not watched the others in the series yet,but will when I get a bit of time.It takes an age for my pc to download video's.
First of all,I already accept the term 'free-will' can be mis-leading as our own volition is confined to those choices that are realistically available,and determined by various internal and external factors,including preference,ability,cost ect.
Now R.C.Sproul claims that "personal desire,determines personal choice." I agree that personal desire can be a determining factor in personal choice,however,I don't believe that personal desire will 'always' determine personal choice.
For example,I have a personal desire to buy a dog but I choose not to,due to other factors.I could be selfish and buy the dog anyway,but over-rule that desire for practical reasons.
R.C.Sproul goes on to suggest that "we must choose according to our strongest inclinations." There have been times when I've thought something to be right,felt it to be right,but decided against it for other reasons.I decided against my strongest inclinations.
I just know you're going to rebutt this : ) I look forward to it though as I'm interested to see where it leads concerning salvation,the elect and so on.

Untill then,God bless you brother.

Sojourner.

Permalink Reply by RoyW on October 28, 2010 at 6:32pm

Sojourner,

I'm not David but I just want to point out that you are contradicting yourself. My interpretation of what you just said is that you did choose according to your strongest inclination. Yes, you desired to purchase a dog but there were overriding circumstances and you made the better choice. As a Christian there will be many challenges to your faith. Sometimes you will choose the good, sometimes the bad but it will be according to your strongest inclination. Sometimes, our choices are wrong but if the drive wasn't so strong to choose the wrong we would never choose the wrong. The strongest inclination will always win. May it just be that the strongest desire in us is that the will of God be accomplished in our life. That can only happen if the power of His Spirit gains enough control in our lives to grant that victory.

"This is the victory that overcomes the world - even our faith."

Where does this lead to salvation? It all goes back to the heart condition of the unbeliever. Will he choose God? My thinking is that he will not. There must be intervention. He must have help. On his own, he can never choose God. He is dead. He is in an utter state of rebellion as pointed out by Scripture.

I know many do not agree with this but I can see no other way. For me, you just demonstrated that fact. All of us have to find our way. I cannot begin to explain my journey in a short time. However, it was not until I begin to understand that God had everything to do with my salvation did I learn to rest in Him. I trust Him fully to complete the process in me that He began.

Sorry to interrupt.

Roy

Permalink Reply by sojourner on October 28, 2010 at 7:32pm

Hi Roy.
Thanks for the reply and no need to be sorry brother.
The point I was making about the dog was that I over-ruled personal desire in favour of cold rationality,therefore personal desire does not always determine personal choice.
You say that "the strongest inclination will always win." If I'm presented with a choice of either right or wrong,and although I have an inclination to choose the right while having a stronger inclination for the wrong,it does not have to follow that I will choose the wrong.Of course I have made wrong choices in life : ( but thankfully when presented with choices between the right and wrong,I have mostly choose the right,even though my stronger inclination was for the wrong : )
I believe people are lead to salvation,but I firmly believe they are brought to a point of decission,were they will either accept or reject.
" choose you this day"

Look forward to your reply's Roy.

God Bless.

Sojourner.

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