WHAT IS ARMINIANISM AND CALVINISM

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on November 4, 2010 at 2:53am

Sin is sovereign till sovereign grace dethrones it.
- Charles Spurgeon

Permalink Reply by RoyW on November 4, 2010 at 6:58am

Amen!

Permalink Reply by Carla on November 4, 2010 at 8:07am

Dear Roy,
I have pasted your comment here for easier responding.. The 'add reply' was gone.
Here's your comment:
Carla,
Please explain to me how you choose to believe in something. If you take the attitude I need to believe in order to receive, can you then begin to receive?
Roy, I don't know that anyone could explain this.. I think it happens instaneously. A person can't just 'will' themselves to believe, and they also can't receive without believing. However, I do believe that God shows enough of Himself by general revelation, that if a person rejects Him, it will be made known to them that they had enough knowledge to enquire more.
Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
I also believe that if a person responds to this general knowledge that is given from God, He will show Himself to them and make sure they hear the gospel so that they can respond in faith and be saved.
Then once you believe how do you not believe? That is the area I struggle with. I either believe or I don't believe. Faith is not a choice. Faith is not something I can drum up. I can confess something until I am blue in the face but until I believe nothing will happen. It is not the confessing but the faith that saves. Confession is evidence or declaration of the faith. I can repent until I am blue in the face but until I believe I cannot be saved.

Once you believe how can you not believe? Roy--why would you want to 'not believe'? I can't fathom that anyone would want to stop believing unless they were not really saved in the first place. I agree that confession is evidence or declaration of the faith. A person who is truly saved will be 'kept' by the Lord. I agree that faith comes first and then confession. I agree that faith is a gift.. I believe that there is a heart shift that occurs in a person that we cannot see and know nothing about it. God knows, and at that moment He imparts 'faith' to them...so that they may confess. For me it was instanteous--although others have had an experience of a gradual heart shifting.. There is also an aspect of that gradual shifting in my testimony--there were circumstances which brought me to the point where I called out to the Lord---at that point it was instanteous. Believers have different experiences with this.

If someone can persuade me that I can choose to believe, you will have converted this old man to your position.
I don't think it is a matter of choosing to believe...but rather it is realizing one's need for Christ. I believe that this is one of those things which is beyond our grasp of understanding--that's why believers throughout time have continued to try to understand it. I wonder if it's not more simple... Maybe it's so simple that we just can't see it because as humans we like to make things complicated....overthinking...overrationalizing.. I believe it comes down to a heart shift that is internal, and only God knows about it. When it happens in a person He is right there to come flooding in and save them.

My position this day and for the last 33 years is that faith is a gift upon whom He freely bestows according to His good pleasure and will. I cannot think any less. I have thought about this for 33 years and cannot come up with a good definition for faith unless it is a gift. Then, if you truly believe something, how can you choose not to believe that?
Faith is a gift..scripture tells us that... However, this gift is freely available to all people. I think the point of understanding here has something to do with a heart shift that we cannot see, define or understand for each individual person. God knows our hearts.

This is a very excellent comment, and I agree with you that faith is a gift. However, a gift must be received.
For example.... I can buy my husband something for Christmas... Let's say I buy him a table saw. He already has a table saw so he tells me 'No Thank you'.. I am not going to accept your gift because I already have all that i need, i don't need the table saw. He has refused my gift and said 'no' because he doesn't see that he needs it. Let's say that the table saw he has breaks down a week later... now he comes to me and says 'I can use this gift afterall..' Now he realizes his need for it--he has a need for it, and he wants it--so he accepts it.
This is my very poor illustration of a gift given---rejecting that gift until the realization has occured that one needs it. You can't force a gift on a person unless they receive that gift.

Here are some scriptures that come to mind:

Luk 17:12 As He entered a village, ten leprous men who stood at a distance met Him;

Luk 17:13 and they raised their voices, saying, "Jesus, Master, have mercy on us!"

Luk 17:14 When He saw them, He said to them, "Go and show yourselves to the priests." And as they were going, they were cleansed.

Luk 17:15 Now one of them, when he saw that he had been healed, turned back, glorifying God with a loud voice,

Luk 17:16 and he fell on his face at His feet, giving thanks to Him. And he was a Samaritan.

Luk 17:17 Then Jesus answered and said, "Were there not ten cleansed? But the nine—where are they?

Luk 17:18 " [fn] Was no one found who returned to give glory to God, except this foreigner?"

Luk 17:19 And He said to him, "Stand up and go; your faith [fn] has made you well."

How do we explain this verse? Stand up and go, your faith has made you well? When did the faith happen...before or after? It seems to me that this one man made a choice to return to say thank you, and he was rewarded for making that choice. But yet--the other 9 were healed as well. Who received the greater gift? I would say it was the man who returned to say 'Thank you'. This is the samaritan--symbolic of the gentiles.. Were the other 9 Jews symbolic---they who rejected their Messiah? Could it be that God chose the samaritan to symbolically represent the gentiles accepting this gift of Salvation--since the Jewish nation rejected Him? I don't know---what do you think?
~~~~~~~~~
Here's another scripture that comes to mind: This man could not make the choice to give up everything to follow Jesus. He was trying to rely on his works...Jesus knew what was in his heart, and spoke to the core of the issue in verse 21. This man could not give up his earthly treasures.. he made his choice...knowing full well who he was rejecting...he called Jesus 'good teacher'. In Jewish tradition no one called a teacher good...it would be going against Jewish custom by calling Jesus 'good'--it would also be blasphemy. They knew that 'only God is good' This indicates that he knew who Jesus was. He could have made a different choice, but he had the love of money..he was very rich. This man made a choice. I can't believe that Jesus didn't predestine him.. because scripture tells us this in verse 21"Looking at him, Jesus felt a love for him and said to him," Jesus felt a love for him... Jesus loved him.. John 3:16 says..."For God so loved the world that HE gave His one and only Son.. that WHOEVER believes...."

Mar 10:17 As He was setting out on a journey, a man ran up to Him and knelt before Him, and asked Him, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"

Mar 10:18 And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.

Mar 10:19 "You know the commandments, 'DO NOT MURDER, DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, DO NOT STEAL, DO NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, Do not defraud, HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER.'"

Mar 10:20 And he said to Him, "Teacher, I have kept all these things from my youth up."

Mar 10:21 Looking at him, Jesus felt a love for him and said to him, "One thing you lack: go and sell all you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."

Mar 10:22 But at these words [fn] he was saddened, and he went away grieving, for he was one who owned much property.

Mar 10:23 And Jesus, looking around, said to His disciples, "How hard it will be for those who are wealthy to enter the kingdom of God!"

Mar 10:24 The disciples were amazed at His words. But Jesus answered again and said to them, "Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God!

Mar 10:25 "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

Mar 10:26 They were even more astonished and said to Him, " [fn] Then who can be saved?"

Mar 10:27 Looking at them, Jesus said, "With people it is impossible, but not with God; for all things are possible with God."
~~~~~~~~~~~~
This womens faith made her well... ..she was rewarded for her faith. When did the faith come? Before or after?
Luk 8:46 But Jesus said, "Someone did touch Me, for I was aware that power had gone out of Me."

Luk 8:47 When the woman saw that she had not escaped notice, she came trembling and fell down before Him, and declared in the presence of all the people the reason why she had touched Him, and how she had been immediately healed.

Luk 8:48 And He said to her, "Daughter, your faith has [fn] made you well; go in peace."
~~~~~~~~
Here is another story where a women's faith is rewarded. When did her faith come? Before or After?
Mat 15:27 "Yes, Lord," she said, "but even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table."
Mat 15:28 Then Jesus answered, "Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.
~~~~~~~~~
What about the parable of the seeds? This parable tells us that we play a part somehow in this... We need to respond, and Jesus tells us the differences of people in this parable and how they respond.

Here is the parable:

Luk 8:11 "Now the parable is this: the seed is the word of God.


Luk 8:12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.


Luk 8:13 "Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; [fn] they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.


Luk 8:14 "The seed which fell among the thorns, these are the ones who have heard, and as they go on their way they are choked with worries and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to maturity.


Luk 8:15 "But the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with [fn] perseverance.

Luk 8:16 "Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed; but he puts it on a lampstand, so that those who come in may see the light.


Luk 8:17 "For nothing is hidden that will not become evident, nor anything secret that will not be known and come to light.


Luk 8:18 "So take care how you listen; for whoever has, to him more shall be given; and whoever does not have, even what he [fn] thinks he has shall be taken away from him."

I think this scripture tells us many things---one of the things, is that when we respond to Jesus we are given more knowledge, faith etc... When we don't respond, ignore etc.. any small amount we have had will be taken away.. This also goes with what it says in Romans 1:20. there is a general knowledge given to people through nature...God's Creation.. If they respond to that general knowledge, they will be given knowledge of Christ (that is--the gospel)---if they do not (athiesm for example), any small amount of knowledge will be taken away. I don't know if this is right... but just something to 'chew on'.
Shall we say that faith is a gift freely given? Yes absolutely.
Ephesians 2:8–9 (NIV)
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
Faith is not of ourselves.. However, these scriptures seem to show that there is a response that is needed on our behalf.
One final thought: Why are we told to count the cost? Why bother if God simply predestines some over others? What should it matter that we count the cost or not? Count the cost for what?

Blessings, Carla
ps--sorry for the long response, I had alot of thoughts to get out.. i really prefer shorter posts if possible.

Permalink Reply by RoyW on November 4, 2010 at 9:25am

Carla,

I am going to just go with a small amount of your post and do a little at a time. Thanks for moving the response to this place where there are more replies.

Firstly:

Roy, I don't know that anyone could explain this.. I think it happens instaneously. A person can't just 'will' themselves to believe, and they also can't receive without believing. However, I do believe that God shows enough of Himself by general revelation, that if a person rejects Him, it will be made known to them that they had enough knowledge to enquire more.

Carla, let me play that back to see if you are hearing what I am hearing. I am hearing you to say that we all receive general revelation and that some act on that while others do not. Is that correct?

You then say:

I also believe that if a person responds to this general knowledge that is given from God, He will show Himself to them and make sure they hear the gospel so that they can respond in faith and be saved.

I am hearing that we all receive a general knowledge which some respond to while others do not. To those who respond, He reveals Himself greater to enable them to respond in faith to be saved. Am I reading this correctly? If so, the problem I would have with that is that some would by their choice be more righteous than the one who resisted this general knowledge or revelation. We all have the same general knowledge but some choose to react to that knowledge while others choose not to. This interpretation would definitely put you in the Armenian camp. I dislike labels as much as the next guy but it only helps us to understand. I think you would say that you don't understand why one would respond while the other does not but God reacts to the one while He might even harden further the heart that does not. Is this a fair assumption or is that going further than you are willing to go?

Regardless of that last point I hear you saying that faith has not taken place as of yet at this point. Is that correct?

Roy

Permalink Reply by Carla on November 4, 2010 at 12:33pm

I am hearing that we all receive a general knowledge which some respond to while others do not. To those who respond, He reveals Himself greater to enable them to respond in faith to be saved. Am I reading this correctly? If so, the problem I would have with that is that some would by their choice be more righteous than the one who resisted this general knowledge or revelation. We all have the same general knowledge but some choose to react to that knowledge while others choose not to.

Absolutely not true.. speak to anyone who has rejected Jesus at this point.. Is there interpretation that they are less righteous than those who do? Absolutely not! Many of them interpret believers as weak, stupid and needy. By their own admission they are strong enough that they do not need God and they view Christians as someone who is weak so they 'need' a Savior. Their own interpretation would certainly not put us as more righteous. Besides, this righteousness has nothing to do with us.. IT IS THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF CHRIST that we now wear.. His robe..His clothing. i believe that a believer understands that. To admit one's need for Jesus is a humbling step to take......There is no room for one to elevate oneself. His Love holds us in to Him..and our faith and joy increases as we abide in Him....when we step away or live for ourselves (as we all do at times) we experience a broken fellowship.....which God allows so we know just how much this is not of ourselves, and we learn how we NEED Him desperately.

This interpretation would definitely put you in the Armenian camp. I dislike labels as much as the next guy but it only helps us to understand. I think you would say that you don't understand why one would respond while the other does not but God reacts to the one while He might even harden further the heart that does not. Is this a fair assumption or is that going further than you are willing to go?

This is a fair assumption Roy...but i do want to do away with labels. I have not studied to be an armenian..nor have i studied to be a calvinist. I am studying scripture, and am trying my best to rightly divide the word of truth. perhaps if you combine the both interpretations you may end up with something closer to what scripture is actually teaching--even then I don't know enough about each of the teachings to say that for certain.

Regardless of that last point I hear you saying that faith has not taken place as of yet at this point. Is that correct? I'm not sure Roy... What I do know is that if a person responds to the message of Christ and to Him in faith, they are saved. I guess the question is when does this 'faith' take place--and why?
Is that even a question we can answer?

Blessings, Carla

Permalink Reply by sojourner on November 4, 2010 at 1:08pm

Amen Carla.
I also can say I was very aware of my need for God,before salvation.I can also say,my sense of need has been reinforced throughout my walk with God,as I realise I can do nothing without Him,in whom alone is my righteousness.

God Bless : )

Permalink Reply by RoyW on November 4, 2010 at 1:46pm

Carla,

I think we are at an impasse. For some reason you believe you responded to His voice while others rejected that same voice. Below Sojourner is saying he was already aware of his need for God. I think you are saying that you just had enough sense to know you needed God. IMHO these are very different answers than what I see in Scripture. I see you as completely dead in your sin without any goodness or ability to respond to God. One believes His grace is resistible while the other does not.

I do not think we are going to come to an agreement. At least we are coming to an understanding of the two different positions. You are definitely saying that you have something to do with salvation even though God is doing most of the work. I don't believe you have anything to do with it. I don't think we are going to come to an agreement.

One believes it is all of God while the other believes it is part of God. That shouldn't offend you since the best of Armenians will admit this. The Armenian will say Jesus has done everything necessary for us to be saved. All that remains is our acceptance of His grace. We must repent of our sins and turn to Him.

I can guarantee you can get saved through that belief. I do not criticize this position. It is not necessary that I agree with that position. Faith is the means of our adoption as sons of God. That is what is important regardless of how we come to possess that. You say regeneration follows your actions and I say regeneration precedes your action. I guess that makes me just a little more helpless than the next guy. I was so lost I don't feel there was anything I could do. For me, He had to do everything. Not only did He have to do everything, I am still helpless. I need Him as much today as I did before. I am totally dependent on Him for my salvation. I am not being flippant by saying these things. I need Him moment by moment. I am lost without Him.

Praise the Lord,
Roy

Permalink Reply by Carla on November 4, 2010 at 2:07pm

Roy,

It seems to be bit of a word game... What you have said here: I guess that makes me just a little more helpless than the next guy. I was so lost I don't feel there was anything I could do. For me, He had to do everything. Not only did He have to do everything, I am still helpless. I need Him as much today as I did before. I am totally dependent on Him for my salvation. I am not being flippant by saying these things. I need Him moment by moment. I am lost without Him. is how i view things also regarding my relationship with Christ. Is there pride masked in there somehow....who can appear the most humble???

In this we most definiately agree: " Jesus has done everything necessary for us to be saved. All that remains is our acceptance of His grace. We must repent of our sins and turn to Him."

Praise God Indeed...

I can't even fathom the calvinist perspective, because I cannot fathom robots in heaven who are there against their free-will...and as i said earlier, I can't fathom God predetermining certain people will go to hell--and sendiing them there because they don't even have a choice to receive Jesus and be saved from that. This view does not take into account that scripture teaches that Jesus died for all of humanity... and desires that all be saved.

I am not relying on anything of myself for my salvation...and God didn't choose me specially above anyone else. He has chosen all of us...but who has heard this message? who will respond to it? Those who will humble themselves and realize their need for Him.. Blessed are the poor in Spirit, the Kingdom of Heaven is given to them. Matt 5:3.

1Ti 2:1 First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men,


1Ti 2:2 for kings and all who are in [fn] authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and [fn] dignity.


1Ti 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,


1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the [fn] knowledge of the truth.


1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,


1Ti 2:6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony [fn] given at [fn] the proper time.

Blessings, Carla

Permalink Reply by RoyW on November 4, 2010 at 5:40pm

Blessings.

Permalink Reply by sojourner on November 4, 2010 at 7:30pm

Hi Roy.

Although I think I understand what you mean by regeneration,I'm not entirely sure.Would you explain to me your view on it? It's just that I'm not sure there's a whole world of difference between your understanding of it and mine.

Of course....I could be entirely wrong : (

God Bless.

Sojourner.

Permalink Reply by RoyW on November 4, 2010 at 8:03pm

Sojourner,

Yes, I do believe there must be an act of God upon the heart before a man can be saved. I am very familiar with the verses that you will bring stating that the sinner is commanded to turn from their sinful ways and repent. However, I also believe that before a sinner can repent, he must believe. I do not believe that the individual has the ability to choose to believe.

Eze 36:22-30

22 "Therefore say to the house of Israel, 'This is what the Sovereign Lord says: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am going to do these things, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you have gone. 23 I will show the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, the name you have profaned among them. Then the nations will know that I am the Lord, declares the Sovereign Lord, when I show myself holy through you before their eyes.

24 "'For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land. 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. 28 You will live in the land I gave your forefathers; you will be my people, and I will be your God. 29 I will save you from all your uncleanness. I will call for the grain and make it plentiful and will not bring famine upon you. NIV

Perhaps God's reason for election can be found in these verses. I can't say. However, when one looks at the book of Ezekiel we see God telling Ezekiel to prophesy to a bunch of dead bones. There is absolutely no purpose commanding those dead bones to live unless He plans to give them new life.

Eze 37:4-5

4 Then he said to me, "Prophesy to these bones and say to them, 'Dry bones, hear the word of the Lord! NIV

Yes, there is a call in Scripture to the sinner to repent. However, unless God changes their heart they will never repent.

The alternate view, of course, would be that there is just enough goodness in each one's heart to be able to repent of one's sins. There remains in him the ability to choose. I am not opposed to this view and I encourage every person that has this view to go and preach to the world. We are both on the same side. I am not opposed to this person.

A hyper-Calvinist would say that it is a waste of time to preach to the dead man unless we think they are chosen. I am not in that company. I say preach the Gospel to every man. Some will believe and some won't. Prophecy to those dead bones. God can and will bring those back to life whom He has chosen.

There is not a lick of difference between the views that really matters. The important thing is that we preach the Gospel and Jesus will do the rest. I do have views on the matter but I believe those views are secondary. I do not believe the dead man has a free will but what difference does that make? Does that make me a robot? Ridiculousness!

Preach the Gospel to every creature. That is the command. We can do no less.

Roy

Permalink Reply by sojourner on November 4, 2010 at 9:22pm

Hi Roy,and thanks for the reply.
I think I'm hearing you brother.Is it repent and believe or believe and repent? Before any of us repents,God,by His Holy Spirit,reveals the truth to us of Christ crucified and our need of Him.We have all experienced the amazing grace of God in our lives,leading us by His Spirit to the cross,believing,repenting and receiving His gift of love for each one of us.Praise God for such amazing love.
I love reading or hearing testimonies : ) I read Carla's,and man,what a blessing! "...by the blood of the Lamb,and by the word of their testimony;and they loved not their lives unto death (Rev'12:11)." Powerful verse! Powerful truth! I would love to hear yours and Davids testimonys sometime.
I agree brother," There is not a lick of difference between the views that really matters." It's good to put heads together though and discuss our beliefs.I know it helps me,and I enjoy the study and the chat.

God Bless,till later : )

Sojourner.

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